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No one thinks that a regular Ivan from some russian city (on his own) is responsible for the war and should suffer. And I see how you could (and probably should

No one thinks that a regular Ivan from some russian city (on his own) is responsible for the war and should suffer. And I see how you could (and probably should, at some level) feel sorry for russians fleeing the country. But this is the only way to tell them that they -- collective Ivans, Russian society as a whole -- should stand up and act: they should articulate their content, they should protest against putin's policy, and they should stop the war (an alternative would be to accept Ukraine to NATO and finish this war is a day, but that won't happen). While they're suffering economically, the suffering of Ukrainians is just on another level -- it's not about restrictions (e.g. no ikea or facebook or apple products) or money (inflation), it's about flattened cities and destroyed lives. I woke up as I heard bombs falling on my city, and I definitely haven't felt any sympathy for russians since then. If they feel they don't support their country's aggression towards Ukraine, they should go protest and stop it -- even at risk of being fined or imprisoned. Otherwise they should just embrace all sanctions and become North Korea imho.

bitcharmer 5y ago
Judging by the number of Russians taking the easy way out by just fleeing or complaining about the evil west closing their Ikea stores this nation at the moment has zero capacity to take responsibility for their own government. I'm afraid it has to get much worse before it gets better. They still don't understand that as much as the government is responsible for its people, the people are also responsible for their government. Putin didn't magically appear on the political scene with all the power he has now. Russians allowed Putin to happen; now they refuse to take responsibility.
- vlaaad 5y ago
  Why would I take responsibility for something I have zero influence over? He did just appear when Yeltsin said that he's leaving. He blatantly fakes elections: 146% support is a very telling result of one of these elections. It is a meme in Russia because when you can't do anything about it you can only laugh or cry. His 20 years on the throne are a constant stream of murders, poisoning and jailing of people who try to do something about it, and their friends, and their families. I'm just a normal person, I want to live a normal live with my wife and kids, I didn't choose any of that. Why do I have to risk going to jail for 15 years for mentioning that war is war, only because I was born on the wrong side of the border?
  - TravelPiglet 5y ago
    Well you can move abroad
  - pilate 5y ago
    Your prospects of a “normal life” are over. Whether you decide to do anything to improve it now is up to you.
  - bitcharmer 5y ago
    > Why would I take responsibility for something I have zero influence over? Well, nothing will ever change in Russia even post-Putin with that mindset. And Russia's neighbors will pay the price of this passive attitude. Other European nations are definitely showing more responsibility. This is just disappointing.
    - BbzzbB 5y ago
      Easy for us in the West to show responsibility when it's not our and our families' lives that are on the line. Our non-willingness (if political decisions can be considered collective, as so many here imply for Russia) to die is made obvious by the fact no one nation dares put a boot on the ground while Ukraine gets leveled.
      - diordiderot 5y ago
        Or maybe it's the certainty of global nuclear annihilation and the end of humanity as we know it But you're probably right, the selfish cowards things makes sense. I guess that's why we haven't gone to war since 1945... Oh wait
        BbzzbB 5y ago
        FWIW I'm not arguing we should, I just find it hypocritical to say Europeans (which I'll extrapolate to the rest of us in the West) are taking responsibility as opposed to Russians when we are doing so from the comfort of our intact living rooms.
      - 5y ago
axg11 5y ago
I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools.
- tyrfing 5y ago
  Putin has popular support, and there's no evidence that Russians are against the war. This sort of argument is about as intellectually dishonest as saying Trump didn't represent the US. Factually, he did. A small minority fleeing the country isn't evidence that everyone opposes the country's leadership, and most of the anecdotes from Russians are about avoiding personal involvement - the fear is of being drafted into the war. edit: I know this is an unpopular point, but there is just zero basis for saying that Putin isn't supported by his country. He absolutely is, which makes the situation much more complicated.
  - optimalonpaper 5y ago
    This might be true (as horrible as it sounds - and many people in Ukraine think exactly this), but I still hope that a vocal minority acting together could start something new - and then we could see another, better Russia (Russia that returns Crimea, Donbass, and don't start new wars).
- adventured 5y ago
  > NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. That's the single biggest falsehood of this whole thing propaganda wise: that the Russian people aren't responsible for what's going on. The Russian people are responsbile for their culture, which keeps producing and promoting authoritarianism, decade after decade, generation after generation, century after century. Oh those poor Russian people, applauding Putin when times were good, cheering the increase in Russian might, cheering the annexation of Crimea, rah rah rah. Oh no, Putin has gone into Ukraine, who could have seen it coming!?! It's all bullshit, they cheered him on. Putin's popularity went way up with the annexation of Crimea, so he's doing it again on a greater level, he's repeating what worked last time with the Russian people - they love conquest and the return of glory for the Russian empire. These are important beliefs of the Russian culture and Putin is very aware of that. Putin fed them endless images of strength, all those ridiculous photos of him pretending to be strong doing a thing, it was all propaganda for his people (now ask yourself why it worked, why that propaganda; because Putin understands very well the Russian culture and what to feed it). They are responsible.
armchairhacker 5y ago
Acting in Russia puts you in a very dangerous situation. Already protestors are being jailed, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the military starts firing at or bombing or gassing protestors. Someone who starts war like this doesn’t respect civilian life, Ukrainian or Russian. Would you, personally, put your life at risk just to be one more protestor? I agree that Russians should stand up to Putin, but honestly it’s a lot easier and likely more effective to do this outside of Russia. And also, targeting and blaming Russians as a whole is exactly not what we need. The difference is a war against Russia vs a war against Putin and the high-level officials. Ordinary Russians didn’t cause this and are victims similar to the Ukrainians. Even if they don’t have it as bad, they’re suffering greatly.
- pilate 5y ago
  What life are they trying to preserve? Russia will be living in the Stone Age for the next several decades if this doesn’t end soon.
- optimalonpaper 5y ago
  > Would you, personally, put your life at risk just to be one more protestor? I could share you a video of unarmed Ukrainians protesting against russian invasion today in Kherson in front of russian tanks. If I felt I was responsible for the country I live in, for the president I elected (and who decided to invade another country without any reason), I would put my life at 'risk' (realistically, would be fined or detained for a few days, not killed or jailed). And besides, the more people participate, the less risks are involved. So really it's up to them. > honestly it’s a lot easier and likely more effective to do this outside of Russia but you all see the enormous and unprecedented support that the whole world give to Ukraine, you see all of these gathering in every major city of every major Western country -- and yet it doesn't effect putin sadly. So easier - yes, but more effective - I doubt it...
- diordiderot 5y ago
  What are they gonna do? Arrest everyone. Eventually the enforcers will get tired of it too
alm1 5y ago
would you say the same thing if Russian citizens were instead from North Korea? The "democratic" Russian Federation is 31 years old (20 of which were under Putin). There has been 0 full generations who saw a functioning or even a fictional democratic process in action.

bitcharmer 5y ago

Judging by the number of Russians taking the easy way out by just fleeing or complaining about the evil west closing their Ikea stores this nation at the moment has zero capacity to take responsibility for their own government. I'm afraid it has to get much worse before it gets better. They still don't understand that as much as the government is responsible for its people, the people are also responsible for their government. Putin didn't magically appear on the political scene with all the power he has now. Russians allowed Putin to happen; now they refuse to take responsibility.

vlaaad 5y ago
Why would I take responsibility for something I have zero influence over? He did just appear when Yeltsin said that he's leaving. He blatantly fakes elections: 146% support is a very telling result of one of these elections. It is a meme in Russia because when you can't do anything about it you can only laugh or cry. His 20 years on the throne are a constant stream of murders, poisoning and jailing of people who try to do something about it, and their friends, and their families. I'm just a normal person, I want to live a normal live with my wife and kids, I didn't choose any of that. Why do I have to risk going to jail for 15 years for mentioning that war is war, only because I was born on the wrong side of the border?
- TravelPiglet 5y ago
  Well you can move abroad
- pilate 5y ago
  Your prospects of a “normal life” are over. Whether you decide to do anything to improve it now is up to you.
- bitcharmer 5y ago
  > Why would I take responsibility for something I have zero influence over? Well, nothing will ever change in Russia even post-Putin with that mindset. And Russia's neighbors will pay the price of this passive attitude. Other European nations are definitely showing more responsibility. This is just disappointing.
  - BbzzbB 5y ago
    Easy for us in the West to show responsibility when it's not our and our families' lives that are on the line. Our non-willingness (if political decisions can be considered collective, as so many here imply for Russia) to die is made obvious by the fact no one nation dares put a boot on the ground while Ukraine gets leveled.
    - diordiderot 5y ago
      Or maybe it's the certainty of global nuclear annihilation and the end of humanity as we know it But you're probably right, the selfish cowards things makes sense. I guess that's why we haven't gone to war since 1945... Oh wait
      - BbzzbB 5y ago
        FWIW I'm not arguing we should, I just find it hypocritical to say Europeans (which I'll extrapolate to the rest of us in the West) are taking responsibility as opposed to Russians when we are doing so from the comfort of our intact living rooms.
    - 5y ago

axg11 5y ago

I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government. On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors? NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools.

tyrfing 5y ago
Putin has popular support, and there's no evidence that Russians are against the war. This sort of argument is about as intellectually dishonest as saying Trump didn't represent the US. Factually, he did. A small minority fleeing the country isn't evidence that everyone opposes the country's leadership, and most of the anecdotes from Russians are about avoiding personal involvement - the fear is of being drafted into the war. edit: I know this is an unpopular point, but there is just zero basis for saying that Putin isn't supported by his country. He absolutely is, which makes the situation much more complicated.
- optimalonpaper 5y ago
  This might be true (as horrible as it sounds - and many people in Ukraine think exactly this), but I still hope that a vocal minority acting together could start something new - and then we could see another, better Russia (Russia that returns Crimea, Donbass, and don't start new wars).
adventured 5y ago
> NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. That's the single biggest falsehood of this whole thing propaganda wise: that the Russian people aren't responsible for what's going on. The Russian people are responsbile for their culture, which keeps producing and promoting authoritarianism, decade after decade, generation after generation, century after century. Oh those poor Russian people, applauding Putin when times were good, cheering the increase in Russian might, cheering the annexation of Crimea, rah rah rah. Oh no, Putin has gone into Ukraine, who could have seen it coming!?! It's all bullshit, they cheered him on. Putin's popularity went way up with the annexation of Crimea, so he's doing it again on a greater level, he's repeating what worked last time with the Russian people - they love conquest and the return of glory for the Russian empire. These are important beliefs of the Russian culture and Putin is very aware of that. Putin fed them endless images of strength, all those ridiculous photos of him pretending to be strong doing a thing, it was all propaganda for his people (now ask yourself why it worked, why that propaganda; because Putin understands very well the Russian culture and what to feed it). They are responsible.

armchairhacker 5y ago

Acting in Russia puts you in a very dangerous situation. Already protestors are being jailed, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the military starts firing at or bombing or gassing protestors. Someone who starts war like this doesn’t respect civilian life, Ukrainian or Russian. Would you, personally, put your life at risk just to be one more protestor? I agree that Russians should stand up to Putin, but honestly it’s a lot easier and likely more effective to do this outside of Russia. And also, targeting and blaming Russians as a whole is exactly not what we need. The difference is a war against Russia vs a war against Putin and the high-level officials. Ordinary Russians didn’t cause this and are victims similar to the Ukrainians. Even if they don’t have it as bad, they’re suffering greatly.

pilate 5y ago
What life are they trying to preserve? Russia will be living in the Stone Age for the next several decades if this doesn’t end soon.
optimalonpaper 5y ago
> Would you, personally, put your life at risk just to be one more protestor? I could share you a video of unarmed Ukrainians protesting against russian invasion today in Kherson in front of russian tanks. If I felt I was responsible for the country I live in, for the president I elected (and who decided to invade another country without any reason), I would put my life at 'risk' (realistically, would be fined or detained for a few days, not killed or jailed). And besides, the more people participate, the less risks are involved. So really it's up to them. > honestly it’s a lot easier and likely more effective to do this outside of Russia but you all see the enormous and unprecedented support that the whole world give to Ukraine, you see all of these gathering in every major city of every major Western country -- and yet it doesn't effect putin sadly. So easier - yes, but more effective - I doubt it...
diordiderot 5y ago
What are they gonna do? Arrest everyone. Eventually the enforcers will get tired of it too

alm1 5y ago

would you say the same thing if Russian citizens were instead from North Korea? The "democratic" Russian Federation is 31 years old (20 of which were under Putin). There has been 0 full generations who saw a functioning or even a fictional democratic process in action.