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It’s not only about revolting, but without a free press, economic sanctions are one way to get people to know that something is going on. Russian citizens may n

It’s not only about revolting, but without a free press, economic sanctions are one way to get people to know that something is going on. Russian citizens may not even know what is happening, but when they suddenly can’t buy thing, when Apple Pay stops working, when costs skyrocket… that gets people to pay attention.

th-2022-03 5y ago
I'm being totally serious about this: as a first generation American, 9/11 caused me to rethink what this country was doing abroad. Obviously the loss of life was terrible. People in my town died in the Twin Towers. But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. Not to mention trading Oil with corrupt Arab leaders who hold their countries hostage. There is not an equivalence between the bad behvaior of the American and Russian state. I'd say Russians are worse in some ways, and Americans are worse in other ways -- largely because Americans are more powerful and influential. So I'm basically agreeing with your argument, although I don't think it's "fair" for the people to suffer (e.g. all the people who died in 9/11). However Americans also have to realize that we largely haven't faced any consequences as people, except a few outliers of terrorist attacks. (throwaway since I usually don't comment about politics)
- SeanLuke 5y ago
  > But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. The US has a free press, and its unfortunate history of overthrowing or supporting governments was and is well documented by the press and by historians in the United States. This documentation and publication resulted in many public scandals, lawsuits, and public intrigue, particularly through the 1960s to 1980s when the US's activities in this regard were perhaps that their peak. The resulting history is taught in universities and in elementary schools across the USA. Now, there are well-known political parties or other people with a vested interest in spinning things in their own way, as is the case in any country, but if you think the United States press is anything like the press in Russia, or that its public is anywhere as ignorant of the facts as the public in Russia and similar countries, or if you felt you were unaware of the US history in this regard while it was going on, then you perhaps led a sheltered life. But it wasn't for lack of trying on part of the US press.
  - ignoramous 5y ago
    Look at my shit, even if as smelly, it is better documented than yours. > I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. Dismissing every argument with whataboutism seems to be flavour of the day, even when it is not whataboutism.
    - SeanLuke 5y ago
      You're welcome to your own opinions, and your own blithe dismissals, but you are not welcome to your own facts. I lived during most of the period discussed by the GP. Everything from the Bay of Pigs to supporting the Shah to Iran Contra to the invasion of Grenada was well covered and well criticized in the US press. And the US invasion of Iraq was highly criticized in the US press even as the US government was facing an uphill battle to convince the world that it was proper by brandishing fake bottles of poison at the UN. The US has done a lot of bad stuff. But claiming that the press just went along with it is historical revisionism, full stop.
      - ignoramous 5y ago
        Having "free" Press does not absolve US of its crimes. That's even ignoring the fact that the Press itself is a propaganda tool for the US military-industrial complex, while steeping in biases of its own. You're welcome to live in your own bubble of facts.
        bigfudge 5y ago
        There’s merit on both sides here. I think the key is that OP was making a personal Point about their own reflection. However well documented in academic texts or small newspapers thinking about how the US has meddled and more is not mainstream in the US, especially on the centre right. 911 did something similar for a number of my friends too - they started looking at some of that history in more detail, and it became important in their decision making.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- Etherlord87 5y ago
  In psychology, there's a mechanism that tells us to look for extraordinary causes for extraordinary events. And I don't mean here something seemingly supernatural - just something that affects you in a big way. For this reason some people, when they lose their loved ones, can't simply agree it was an accident and look for some kind of conspiracy, a bad actor, a murder. My point is, even those russians who know the situation well on the level of knowledge, could be emotionally detached and think that's just how the world works - but now that they see unprecedented response, it can sink in emotionally that their government has really done something terrible.
ushakov 5y ago
everyone in Russia knows what's going on but when Apple Pay stops working, when costs skyrocket the blame will be on companies and on the west take it from ex-Russian
- vkou 5y ago
  Half of them will blame the west, because, as in every country, roughly half the population believes whatever stupid authoritarian bullshit they are fed. Not much different from the West, just travel to a sundown town and ask who won the last election, or whether it's a good idea to get the 'rona vaccine. The other half knows better, but also knows better than to talk about what they know publicly. Which is how Russia differs from the West.
- pelasaco 5y ago
  exactly. They were all fine with Putin, being Putin... since 97. Now, remote workers cannot get their salary because of the SWIFT sanction, Apple Pay stops to work and NOW suddenly it is serious? The struggle is real (TM).
  - eps 5y ago
    They were all OK with Putin because he was up there, next to the god, doing his tsar things that didn't appear to affect people down here much. He also did populist things and stoked Russian self-pride, which was a welcome development because the pride was all but destroyed during the Perestroika and what's left of it was exchanged for frozen chicken legs generously provided by the Bush administration. In other words, he was tolerated with some approval. Not much thought was given to the trade-offs and some goodwill was assumed when these were made. This approval is still there, but now it hinges on keeping masses fed with propaganda bullshit, to keep them believing that their fight (and suffering) is for the right cause. But when your life comforts take a nosedive, it will work only for so long. So pulling a rug from under the unwashed gray masses is the exactly right thing to do in this situation. It's literally the only thing that could shake them off their consumerist nirvana, force to look around and realize how much they willingly exchanged in past 20 years for something that not only wasn't guaranteed, but could also be completely taken away on a very short notice.
lowkey 5y ago
But at what cost? I am pretty sure that everyday Russians do know that something is going on but I have trouble justifying broad sanctions against the poor and middle-class citizens of Russia, Iran or Venezuela - especially since many of them oppose their authoritarian leaders. After all their real crime is simply losing the birth lottery by being born in an authoritarian regime.
- mantas 5y ago
  According to polls, even run by West outlets, Russians do support Putin in big numbers.
  - lowkey 5y ago
    If you don’t trust the official election polls in Russia, why would you trust their opinion polls to be honest. If I were Putin, I would certainly be tempted to manipulate opinion polls to make it look like I am more popular than I really am. As for western media, while no doubt less manipulated than Russian media, I don’t think it is safe to assume that western media is above manipulating public opinion to suit their agenda. For example, I find it curious how little coverage the Ukraine-Russian conflict has received by western media until last week when this conflict has been a hot war since 2014.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      Because covid and other things. A lot more was reported since last September where I am from.
      - mantas 5y ago
        And it was really boring for years. Another shelling, another handful of men dead, another Russian exercise
    - mantas 5y ago
      There are lots of polls done by non-gov-aligned news agencies or even paid by foreign outlets. All of them paint the same picture. Even here in Lithuania we got quite a few people eating up Russian propaganda and supporting Putin. I’ve no doubts it works even better in Russia. Any media is biased. That’s how humans operate. The key is to watch different sources. And don’t get into „both sides have some truth“ BS. No, sometimes one side is flat out lying. But IMO it’s important to understand the other side narrative to understand their logic. Here in Lithuania we got non-stop coverage of Ukraine since 2014. But I’m sure we get no coverage on stuff that is far away and public doesn’t care much.

th-2022-03 5y ago

I'm being totally serious about this: as a first generation American, 9/11 caused me to rethink what this country was doing abroad. Obviously the loss of life was terrible. People in my town died in the Twin Towers. But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. Not to mention trading Oil with corrupt Arab leaders who hold their countries hostage. There is not an equivalence between the bad behvaior of the American and Russian state. I'd say Russians are worse in some ways, and Americans are worse in other ways -- largely because Americans are more powerful and influential. So I'm basically agreeing with your argument, although I don't think it's "fair" for the people to suffer (e.g. all the people who died in 9/11). However Americans also have to realize that we largely haven't faced any consequences as people, except a few outliers of terrorist attacks. (throwaway since I usually don't comment about politics)

SeanLuke 5y ago
> But I grew up mostly with American propoganda. I didn't know that the US had a long history of overthrowing governments in the Middle East and South America, and generally meddling in their affairs. I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. The US has a free press, and its unfortunate history of overthrowing or supporting governments was and is well documented by the press and by historians in the United States. This documentation and publication resulted in many public scandals, lawsuits, and public intrigue, particularly through the 1960s to 1980s when the US's activities in this regard were perhaps that their peak. The resulting history is taught in universities and in elementary schools across the USA. Now, there are well-known political parties or other people with a vested interest in spinning things in their own way, as is the case in any country, but if you think the United States press is anything like the press in Russia, or that its public is anywhere as ignorant of the facts as the public in Russia and similar countries, or if you felt you were unaware of the US history in this regard while it was going on, then you perhaps led a sheltered life. But it wasn't for lack of trying on part of the US press.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  Look at my shit, even if as smelly, it is better documented than yours. > I'm sorry, but this is whataboutism in its full glory. Dismissing every argument with whataboutism seems to be flavour of the day, even when it is not whataboutism.
  - SeanLuke 5y ago
    You're welcome to your own opinions, and your own blithe dismissals, but you are not welcome to your own facts. I lived during most of the period discussed by the GP. Everything from the Bay of Pigs to supporting the Shah to Iran Contra to the invasion of Grenada was well covered and well criticized in the US press. And the US invasion of Iraq was highly criticized in the US press even as the US government was facing an uphill battle to convince the world that it was proper by brandishing fake bottles of poison at the UN. The US has done a lot of bad stuff. But claiming that the press just went along with it is historical revisionism, full stop.
    - ignoramous 5y ago
      Having "free" Press does not absolve US of its crimes. That's even ignoring the fact that the Press itself is a propaganda tool for the US military-industrial complex, while steeping in biases of its own. You're welcome to live in your own bubble of facts.
      - bigfudge 5y ago
        There’s merit on both sides here. I think the key is that OP was making a personal Point about their own reflection. However well documented in academic texts or small newspapers thinking about how the US has meddled and more is not mainstream in the US, especially on the centre right. 911 did something similar for a number of my friends too - they started looking at some of that history in more detail, and it became important in their decision making.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Etherlord87 5y ago
In psychology, there's a mechanism that tells us to look for extraordinary causes for extraordinary events. And I don't mean here something seemingly supernatural - just something that affects you in a big way. For this reason some people, when they lose their loved ones, can't simply agree it was an accident and look for some kind of conspiracy, a bad actor, a murder. My point is, even those russians who know the situation well on the level of knowledge, could be emotionally detached and think that's just how the world works - but now that they see unprecedented response, it can sink in emotionally that their government has really done something terrible.

ushakov 5y ago

everyone in Russia knows what's going on but when Apple Pay stops working, when costs skyrocket the blame will be on companies and on the west take it from ex-Russian

vkou 5y ago
Half of them will blame the west, because, as in every country, roughly half the population believes whatever stupid authoritarian bullshit they are fed. Not much different from the West, just travel to a sundown town and ask who won the last election, or whether it's a good idea to get the 'rona vaccine. The other half knows better, but also knows better than to talk about what they know publicly. Which is how Russia differs from the West.
pelasaco 5y ago
exactly. They were all fine with Putin, being Putin... since 97. Now, remote workers cannot get their salary because of the SWIFT sanction, Apple Pay stops to work and NOW suddenly it is serious? The struggle is real (TM).
- eps 5y ago
  They were all OK with Putin because he was up there, next to the god, doing his tsar things that didn't appear to affect people down here much. He also did populist things and stoked Russian self-pride, which was a welcome development because the pride was all but destroyed during the Perestroika and what's left of it was exchanged for frozen chicken legs generously provided by the Bush administration. In other words, he was tolerated with some approval. Not much thought was given to the trade-offs and some goodwill was assumed when these were made. This approval is still there, but now it hinges on keeping masses fed with propaganda bullshit, to keep them believing that their fight (and suffering) is for the right cause. But when your life comforts take a nosedive, it will work only for so long. So pulling a rug from under the unwashed gray masses is the exactly right thing to do in this situation. It's literally the only thing that could shake them off their consumerist nirvana, force to look around and realize how much they willingly exchanged in past 20 years for something that not only wasn't guaranteed, but could also be completely taken away on a very short notice.

lowkey 5y ago

But at what cost? I am pretty sure that everyday Russians do know that something is going on but I have trouble justifying broad sanctions against the poor and middle-class citizens of Russia, Iran or Venezuela - especially since many of them oppose their authoritarian leaders. After all their real crime is simply losing the birth lottery by being born in an authoritarian regime.

mantas 5y ago
According to polls, even run by West outlets, Russians do support Putin in big numbers.
- lowkey 5y ago
  If you don’t trust the official election polls in Russia, why would you trust their opinion polls to be honest. If I were Putin, I would certainly be tempted to manipulate opinion polls to make it look like I am more popular than I really am. As for western media, while no doubt less manipulated than Russian media, I don’t think it is safe to assume that western media is above manipulating public opinion to suit their agenda. For example, I find it curious how little coverage the Ukraine-Russian conflict has received by western media until last week when this conflict has been a hot war since 2014.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    Because covid and other things. A lot more was reported since last September where I am from.
    - mantas 5y ago
      And it was really boring for years. Another shelling, another handful of men dead, another Russian exercise
  - mantas 5y ago
    There are lots of polls done by non-gov-aligned news agencies or even paid by foreign outlets. All of them paint the same picture. Even here in Lithuania we got quite a few people eating up Russian propaganda and supporting Putin. I’ve no doubts it works even better in Russia. Any media is biased. That’s how humans operate. The key is to watch different sources. And don’t get into „both sides have some truth“ BS. No, sometimes one side is flat out lying. But IMO it’s important to understand the other side narrative to understand their logic. Here in Lithuania we got non-stop coverage of Ukraine since 2014. But I’m sure we get no coverage on stuff that is far away and public doesn’t care much.