5 ms·

Pretty underwhelming to see a spitball theory on Russia regarding nepotism/corruption based on it being “typical of many things in Russia”—nothing specific to t

Pretty underwhelming to see a spitball theory on Russia regarding nepotism/corruption based on it being “typical of many things in Russia”—nothing specific to the military or the air force, just a blank cheque that can be used to interrogate anything.

torbTurret 5y ago
Underwhelming, sure, but likely true. Genuine question: have you spent anytime living there? If so where/how long?
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  No time.
ipv6ipv4 5y ago
This is a long video but it explains in detail where OPs assertion is coming from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  Thanks but it's a one hour video in Finish! Subtitles are available but I don't know if they're good quality. I probably could read the thing in 20 minutes if I could extract the subtitles. Do you have a link on an article that I could put though deepl?
  - jdougan 5y ago
    I usually use YCS [1] to extract subtitles though ypu may want to remove the timestamps before translation. 1. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ycs-youtube-comment-searc/pmfhcilikeembgbiadjiojgfgcfbcoaa?hl=en&gl=US https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ycs-youtube-commen...
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      Thanks, at the time I didn't think about youtube-dl but of course it has args for that :) youtube-dl --write-sub --sub-lang en --skip-download I translated the subtitles with deepl, it made for a fascinating read!
KptMarchewa 5y ago
Career of Shoigu is a great indicator of how things are going in Russian military.
throw__away7391 5y ago
Russia has a long history of corruption going back to the time when the princes under the Mongol Empire beginning in 1219 were forced to collect taxes on their behalf. Unlike in the rest of Europe and China, the princes during this time ended up controlling large regions relatively uncontested, responsible only for extracting maximum output from their vassal and putting little pressure on their power structures to be efficient to outside threats. This structure has been recreated in each successive iteration of Russia government, up to the oligarchs today. Or so goes the general historical consensus. Russia ranked 136th out of 180 in Transparency International's corruption index.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  You just used the open European Plains/Steppes to explain a supposedly incompetent Russian air force, specifically your spitball theory about incompetent VKS pilots. A more humble person might just go back about thirty years and use the post-Soviet oligarch looting in order to explain the corruption and in turn the VKS pilots... only relatively more humble, but still. Are you sure that you don’t want to rein in the grand narration just a little bit?
  - throw__away7391 5y ago
    Not incompetent, but not expendable, as in military command feeling it is better for their careers if they don't send powerful people's kids to die. Why are you so hung up on defending Russia?
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      On second thought, this theory of complacency on the European Plains makes even less sense when one considers the invasions that Russia/Soviet Union had to fight back in the 20th century. The border with the rest of Europe is hell to defend—it’s basically anti-Switzerland. And in that light the historical line that is being drawn makes even less sense. > Why are you so hung up on defending Russia? It’s revealing that you frame or interpret this discussion as being about either attacking or defending Russia. Why is it/ought it to be about that?
anothernewdude 5y ago
Corruption is how Putin obtained and maintains order. It is regarded as a feature of Russian governance, but is likely to fail it in the case of actually providing the services a government is expected to. Why not the military as well?
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Why not the military as well? Because an autocrat is directly served by having a strong military? This should not need to be explained. An autocrat doesn’t have to care about corruption in the school system or the Department of Motor Vehicles, but he has good reason to care about corruption and incompetence in his military, just from a purely self-serving perspective.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    Only if the military aren't likely to pull a coup - look at Turkey, seems like a dictator getting too big for their boots and then knocked back by the military happens every decade or so there?
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    The political elites of the military come from the same ranks as those for corrupt other areas of life. Soldiers in the armed forces, in any interaction outside of it, face corruption every day: semi-official bribe lists with local police forces, bribes for administrative procedures, medical and so on. In corrupt societies, it is hard to opt out of bribery since “market” forces balance out on the assumption that bribe giver can finance them partially through bribe taking. Cutting one leg off the trade makes it fail. I think it’s naive to believe you can build an island of meritocracy surrounded from all sides by a corrupt system.

torbTurret 5y ago

Underwhelming, sure, but likely true. Genuine question: have you spent anytime living there? If so where/how long?

avgcorrection 5y ago
No time.

ipv6ipv4 5y ago

This is a long video but it explains in detail where OPs assertion is coming from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw

jmnicolas 5y ago
Thanks but it's a one hour video in Finish! Subtitles are available but I don't know if they're good quality. I probably could read the thing in 20 minutes if I could extract the subtitles. Do you have a link on an article that I could put though deepl?
- jdougan 5y ago
  I usually use YCS [1] to extract subtitles though ypu may want to remove the timestamps before translation. 1. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ycs-youtube-comment-searc/pmfhcilikeembgbiadjiojgfgcfbcoaa?hl=en&gl=US https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ycs-youtube-commen...
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    Thanks, at the time I didn't think about youtube-dl but of course it has args for that :) youtube-dl --write-sub --sub-lang en --skip-download I translated the subtitles with deepl, it made for a fascinating read!

KptMarchewa 5y ago

Career of Shoigu is a great indicator of how things are going in Russian military.

throw__away7391 5y ago

Russia has a long history of corruption going back to the time when the princes under the Mongol Empire beginning in 1219 were forced to collect taxes on their behalf. Unlike in the rest of Europe and China, the princes during this time ended up controlling large regions relatively uncontested, responsible only for extracting maximum output from their vassal and putting little pressure on their power structures to be efficient to outside threats. This structure has been recreated in each successive iteration of Russia government, up to the oligarchs today. Or so goes the general historical consensus. Russia ranked 136th out of 180 in Transparency International's corruption index.

avgcorrection 5y ago
You just used the open European Plains/Steppes to explain a supposedly incompetent Russian air force, specifically your spitball theory about incompetent VKS pilots. A more humble person might just go back about thirty years and use the post-Soviet oligarch looting in order to explain the corruption and in turn the VKS pilots... only relatively more humble, but still. Are you sure that you don’t want to rein in the grand narration just a little bit?
- throw__away7391 5y ago
  Not incompetent, but not expendable, as in military command feeling it is better for their careers if they don't send powerful people's kids to die. Why are you so hung up on defending Russia?
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    On second thought, this theory of complacency on the European Plains makes even less sense when one considers the invasions that Russia/Soviet Union had to fight back in the 20th century. The border with the rest of Europe is hell to defend—it’s basically anti-Switzerland. And in that light the historical line that is being drawn makes even less sense. > Why are you so hung up on defending Russia? It’s revealing that you frame or interpret this discussion as being about either attacking or defending Russia. Why is it/ought it to be about that?

anothernewdude 5y ago

Corruption is how Putin obtained and maintains order. It is regarded as a feature of Russian governance, but is likely to fail it in the case of actually providing the services a government is expected to. Why not the military as well?

avgcorrection 5y ago
Why not the military as well? Because an autocrat is directly served by having a strong military? This should not need to be explained. An autocrat doesn’t have to care about corruption in the school system or the Department of Motor Vehicles, but he has good reason to care about corruption and incompetence in his military, just from a purely self-serving perspective.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Only if the military aren't likely to pull a coup - look at Turkey, seems like a dictator getting too big for their boots and then knocked back by the military happens every decade or so there?
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  The political elites of the military come from the same ranks as those for corrupt other areas of life. Soldiers in the armed forces, in any interaction outside of it, face corruption every day: semi-official bribe lists with local police forces, bribes for administrative procedures, medical and so on. In corrupt societies, it is hard to opt out of bribery since “market” forces balance out on the assumption that bribe giver can finance them partially through bribe taking. Cutting one leg off the trade makes it fail. I think it’s naive to believe you can build an island of meritocracy surrounded from all sides by a corrupt system.