5 ms·

> When we went fully remote, suddenly it seems like any compunctions about that vanished; I would have meetings until 9pm 3 nights a week This is why there is

> When we went fully remote, suddenly it seems like any compunctions about that vanished; I would have meetings until 9pm 3 nights a week This is why there is a decline button next to the accept button. An outage or something disastrous, sure I'll stay online till midnight to help in anyway I can; a regular status update type meeting, no way.

KyeRussell 5y ago
This is unhelpful. Nobody gets total control of their time in employment, and some people get a lot less control than others.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  Set boundaries. Decide if someone violating them is worth quitting over. It's a competitive market, and frankly - Many of the FAANG companies are terrible to work for. No one is saying you have total control of your schedule - but if I'm consistently asked to take a meeting at 9pm my time... I'll have a meeting with my manager, and it will consist of the following: "I will quit if they keep asking me to meet when I'd like to be reading bedtime stories to my kid". So far - I have not had to quit, and I don't take 9pm meetings. I find your meek & bleak acquiescence unhelpful.
  - crossroadsguy 5y ago
    > Many of the FAANG companies are terrible to work for. How’s F and G and N (Netflix right?)? Friend works at G India. Sings paeans . He moved there after 6 months at Uber (where I resigned in a week). I have always heard shitty things about AA though so I guess that kinda settles it.
    - saagarjha 5y ago
      All the FAANG companies have bad aspects to them. Some are more likely to have them than others. But those are averages, and I find that the biggest contributor to your workplace culture will be which specific team you’re on and not the company you’re at. (I know plenty of people at Apple and Amazon who are perfectly happy with their situation, and some at the others who aren’t. But I think the work/life balance on average tends to be worse there, yes.)
    - gsich 5y ago
      Netflix for some unknown reason. That's why I like GMAFIA.
      - nickm12 5y ago
        What is the I? I like MAGMA which requires using Meta but not Alphabet.
SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
I do freely decline status update meetings at unreasonable hours, and most people reading this are probably in a position where they should too. The problem is with things like design reviews and planning meetings, where declining just means people are going to make decisions without you.
tombert 5y ago
I didn't feel like that was really an option. It became recurring meetings three times a week, and I got the vibe of "if you don't go, it's gonna look bad".
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  It may or may not have been an option. If you never try it definitely wasn't an option. I have never worked at a FAANG myself, so this might not be something that works in those places. But what I do is to simply put "Out of Office" on my calendar outside of my core working hours. I don't even have to decline. I can honestly say that it was automated and I never even saw their invite. If someone complained about it I would tell them that I can definitely make exceptions, just need to check w/ the SO as she might have a meeting she can't move and we have the kids to take care of. I also don't react well to invites over night. I have my calendar in my head well enough to know when to wake up/be home etc. for the first meeting. So something you put on my calendar "in between" will in most if not all cases not even be seen. I do not have notifications enabled on my cell. This has so far worked without fail and only a few people have ever asked me for a specific slot and moving something. Basically the OoO reply get them to rethink and at the very least they know they gotta talk to me first and can't just plug something on my calendar and I will show up. That said, any regular meeting someone puts on my calendar in a free slot with enough notice I will simply accept, be there and do my best to contribute. Meetings someone puts in 5 minutes before (or worse, yes this has happened during the meeting) and then ping me "are you coming" will result in a very stubborn me. Yes I would quit over someone throwing a fit for my stubbornness. No it has never been necessary. They all backpaddled.
  - crossroadsguy 5y ago
    That no office communication on personal phone has worked wonders for me as well. And my personal numbers is for emergencies only. Not turning up last minute meetings have also worked well. I mean I was shocked but people actually need to be told you’re not available at one ping and then they mend their ways. Start saying yes, it gets worse.
    - deleted 5y ago
mulmen 5y ago
> This is why there is a decline button next to the accept button. Depends on your MacOS version. In Mojave there’s actually no meaningful way to interact with an invite through a notification. There’s a dropdown but it’s not reachable. It only appears if you mouse over where the “x” button should be, which causes the button and dropdown to appear. If you move the mouse off this button both the button and the dropdown vanish. Also, I’m afraid to click that “x” because I’m still not sure if it dismisses the notification or declines the invite. And I still can’t figure out how to decline from the calendar with a message. I have to go to my deleted items in Mail and reply to the invite there.
microtherion 5y ago
In principle, I agree, but I should point out that "No meetings outside regular daylight hours" and "My employer shouldn't care where in the world I do my job" are not compatible with each other. In the course of a week, I collaborate literally with people in the UK, California, China, and Saudia Arabia. People are occasionally have to take meetings outside daylight hours. Best we can do is to (a) minimize the number of meetings overall (a lot more things can be done asynchronously that is often acknowledged) and (b) spread the pain fairly so nobody has to always take meetings at awkward hours.
- raydev 5y ago
  > In principle, I agree, but I should point out that "No meetings outside regular daylight hours" and "My employer shouldn't care where in the world I do my job" are not compatible with each other. Not if you're all in North America. I've worked for two large, distributed companies in the last several years, where I reside in Eastern time zone. There's enough overlap between me and teammates in the Pacific time zone that evening meetings are never necessary.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't get that one. You need to be in some really extreme timezones to not have any overlap. I worked with both UK and US from Australia (not Apple) and it was possible. Occasionally I'd do a meeting at night and start later the next day, but it was always my choice.
    - microtherion 5y ago
      As I said, our team is literally spread evenly around the globe (though not nearly in equal numbers). Every hour of the day is bound to be awkward for someone.
      - viraptor 5y ago
        In those cases we split the meeting and someone sent in the notes async. At the level where all those people absolutely must be present... I would hope they're paid enough and have enough agency in their roles to figure out the solution.

KyeRussell 5y ago

This is unhelpful. Nobody gets total control of their time in employment, and some people get a lot less control than others.

horsawlarway 5y ago
Set boundaries. Decide if someone violating them is worth quitting over. It's a competitive market, and frankly - Many of the FAANG companies are terrible to work for. No one is saying you have total control of your schedule - but if I'm consistently asked to take a meeting at 9pm my time... I'll have a meeting with my manager, and it will consist of the following: "I will quit if they keep asking me to meet when I'd like to be reading bedtime stories to my kid". So far - I have not had to quit, and I don't take 9pm meetings. I find your meek & bleak acquiescence unhelpful.
- crossroadsguy 5y ago
  > Many of the FAANG companies are terrible to work for. How’s F and G and N (Netflix right?)? Friend works at G India. Sings paeans . He moved there after 6 months at Uber (where I resigned in a week). I have always heard shitty things about AA though so I guess that kinda settles it.
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    All the FAANG companies have bad aspects to them. Some are more likely to have them than others. But those are averages, and I find that the biggest contributor to your workplace culture will be which specific team you’re on and not the company you’re at. (I know plenty of people at Apple and Amazon who are perfectly happy with their situation, and some at the others who aren’t. But I think the work/life balance on average tends to be worse there, yes.)
  - gsich 5y ago
    Netflix for some unknown reason. That's why I like GMAFIA.
    - nickm12 5y ago
      What is the I? I like MAGMA which requires using Meta but not Alphabet.

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago

I do freely decline status update meetings at unreasonable hours, and most people reading this are probably in a position where they should too. The problem is with things like design reviews and planning meetings, where declining just means people are going to make decisions without you.

tombert 5y ago

I didn't feel like that was really an option. It became recurring meetings three times a week, and I got the vibe of "if you don't go, it's gonna look bad".

tharkun__ 5y ago
It may or may not have been an option. If you never try it definitely wasn't an option. I have never worked at a FAANG myself, so this might not be something that works in those places. But what I do is to simply put "Out of Office" on my calendar outside of my core working hours. I don't even have to decline. I can honestly say that it was automated and I never even saw their invite. If someone complained about it I would tell them that I can definitely make exceptions, just need to check w/ the SO as she might have a meeting she can't move and we have the kids to take care of. I also don't react well to invites over night. I have my calendar in my head well enough to know when to wake up/be home etc. for the first meeting. So something you put on my calendar "in between" will in most if not all cases not even be seen. I do not have notifications enabled on my cell. This has so far worked without fail and only a few people have ever asked me for a specific slot and moving something. Basically the OoO reply get them to rethink and at the very least they know they gotta talk to me first and can't just plug something on my calendar and I will show up. That said, any regular meeting someone puts on my calendar in a free slot with enough notice I will simply accept, be there and do my best to contribute. Meetings someone puts in 5 minutes before (or worse, yes this has happened during the meeting) and then ping me "are you coming" will result in a very stubborn me. Yes I would quit over someone throwing a fit for my stubbornness. No it has never been necessary. They all backpaddled.
- crossroadsguy 5y ago
  That no office communication on personal phone has worked wonders for me as well. And my personal numbers is for emergencies only. Not turning up last minute meetings have also worked well. I mean I was shocked but people actually need to be told you’re not available at one ping and then they mend their ways. Start saying yes, it gets worse.
  - deleted 5y ago

mulmen 5y ago

> This is why there is a decline button next to the accept button. Depends on your MacOS version. In Mojave there’s actually no meaningful way to interact with an invite through a notification. There’s a dropdown but it’s not reachable. It only appears if you mouse over where the “x” button should be, which causes the button and dropdown to appear. If you move the mouse off this button both the button and the dropdown vanish. Also, I’m afraid to click that “x” because I’m still not sure if it dismisses the notification or declines the invite. And I still can’t figure out how to decline from the calendar with a message. I have to go to my deleted items in Mail and reply to the invite there.

microtherion 5y ago

In principle, I agree, but I should point out that "No meetings outside regular daylight hours" and "My employer shouldn't care where in the world I do my job" are not compatible with each other. In the course of a week, I collaborate literally with people in the UK, California, China, and Saudia Arabia. People are occasionally have to take meetings outside daylight hours. Best we can do is to (a) minimize the number of meetings overall (a lot more things can be done asynchronously that is often acknowledged) and (b) spread the pain fairly so nobody has to always take meetings at awkward hours.

raydev 5y ago
> In principle, I agree, but I should point out that "No meetings outside regular daylight hours" and "My employer shouldn't care where in the world I do my job" are not compatible with each other. Not if you're all in North America. I've worked for two large, distributed companies in the last several years, where I reside in Eastern time zone. There's enough overlap between me and teammates in the Pacific time zone that evening meetings are never necessary.
- viraptor 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't get that one. You need to be in some really extreme timezones to not have any overlap. I worked with both UK and US from Australia (not Apple) and it was possible. Occasionally I'd do a meeting at night and start later the next day, but it was always my choice.
  - microtherion 5y ago
    As I said, our team is literally spread evenly around the globe (though not nearly in equal numbers). Every hour of the day is bound to be awkward for someone.
    - viraptor 5y ago
      In those cases we split the meeting and someone sent in the notes async. At the level where all those people absolutely must be present... I would hope they're paid enough and have enough agency in their roles to figure out the solution.