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Performance degrades of course, but modern EVs are quite popular in e.g. Norway where they drive them well inside arctic conditions. It's not like they stop wor

Performance degrades of course, but modern EVs are quite popular in e.g. Norway where they drive them well inside arctic conditions. It's not like they stop working under conditions where ICE vehicles definitely face challenges with both range and reliability. Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. Those same systems are great for keeping your EV topped up of course. Anything liquid might end up freezing. In an EV that's electrolytes, cooling liquid, brake fluids, etc. Of course, batteries can be heated in an EV and that helps. Simply using them heats them up. That's why many EVs have battery cooling. Also many owners might want to turn up the heat remotely so they enter a nicely warmed car instead of an ice box. That costs energy and range of course. So, it's not all that black and white. But overall, it seems EVs can do well under arctic conditions. All the big vendors test under those conditions. The cold hard reality (to paraphrase the alarmist title) is that it isn't that big of a deal.

UltraViolence 5y ago
I'd say a 50% drop in range IS a big deal. There's none of that with ICE vehicles.
- protomyth 5y ago
  Anyone who owns a hybrid in the northland probably notices a dip in gas mileage in the winter. My Kia Niro loses about 30% of its gas mileage in the winter months in North Dakota. Its enough of a difference that this will be my last hybrid, and I am going to be very careful when I buy an electric. Since, I live in an apartment currently, I don't really have an option for an electric.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    30% isn't that bad. Even petrol cars get similarly bad or worse mileage in the winter. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml Also cars in general as they age gradually get worse mileage.
    - waffleiron 5y ago
      > 30% isn't that bad. Even petrol cars get similarly bad or worse mileage in the winter. From the link you linked, city driving 15% and "as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips". That is not really similarly bad or worse.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Most trips are too short to get the engine up to optimal operating temperature in winter. Cold engines have terrible efficiency, so you lose quite a bit of range in day-to-day driving during winter.
neogodless 5y ago
The article mentions Norway, and it also highlights how many electric vehicles perform nearly as well in very cold conditions, though some (particularly from GM and Ford) do much worse. > In Norway — where half of all new cars are plug-ins — tests show that EVs lose about 20% of their driving range and take longer to charge in cold temperatures, according to the Norwegian Automobile Federation.
- dkarl 5y ago
  > some (particularly from GM and Ford) do much worse Naturally people who don't like EVs are going to cherry-pick these problems, but the mixed results suggest to me that it's down to a deficiency in the design and testing process at some companies. I had a 2009 Prius where the rubber pad on the metal hatchback handle melted, fell off, and left a thick streak of rubber adhered to my license plate. It was a known issue in that model of Prius and affected a lot of people in the southwestern US. Was it a great engineering challenge to create a handle that could handle such heat? Did they consciously decide to sell something that would fail in an ugly and embarrassing way right below their brand logo? I doubt it; I suspect it was a new design that they failed to test rigorously enough.
rr808 5y ago
Most of Norway like Oslo isn't really arctic cold though. Big continental cities away from the coast are much more frigid. eg Oslo this January was above freezing every day, and only below freezing a few nights. https://www.accuweather.com/en/no/oslo/254946/january-weather/254946 https://www.accuweather.com/en/no/oslo/254946/january-weathe.... Compare that to Chicago https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/chicago/60608/january-weather/348308?year=2022 https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/chicago/60608/january-weat...
- rco8786 5y ago
  > Most of Norway like Oslo isn't really arctic cold though Oslo is colder than like 90% of the inhabited parts of the planet...it's probably fine to use it as an example when talking about cold weather performance of EVs
  - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
    Average temperature in Oslo is colder than 90% of the planet - but average winter temperature in Oslo is a fairly normal winter temperature for nearly half the planet, especially for the more affluent parts of it. The hottest large city on Earth - Ahvaz, Iran - with a record high of 54C, still recorded a record low of -7C
  - lm28469 5y ago
    It really isn't that cold https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine,Oslo,Norway https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Tem...
    - gzer0 5y ago
      When comparing Norway's mean average temperature to the rest of the world, it is clear that it is significantly cooler. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hottest-countries-in-the-world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hottest-c...
      - 5y ago
giantg2 5y ago
I found the brake fluid freezing comment interesting. Quite a bit conflicting info on it when I do a search. Some places say the fluid doesn't actually freeze but becomes too viscous to function properly. Others say it's condensation in the vacuum booster line, effectively making them non-power brakes. And still others say the fluid itself won't freeze, but the water it absorbed will.
- bombcar 5y ago
  All may be true - DOT 5 brake fluid is silicon based and will not absorb water at all, the others will. Which is why DOT 5 is often found in military trucks.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Yeah, but the claims I saw were including DOT 3, 4 and sometimes 5. At least here in the US, DOT 5 seems to be pretty uncommon.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      3 and 4 (and 5.1) absorb water so who knows what that does at super low temperatures (but it’s rated pretty low as is). I know power steering fluid gets too viscous and can blow out the hoses on a Dodge Avenger because it can’t get through the cooler.
- verisimilitude 5y ago
  Anecdata: I live in Minnesota. It is cold here ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_weather_records#By_month https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_weather_reco... ) -- and here in my fourth decade of life, never had an issue with brake fluid. I've seen issues in the cold with: electronics, radiator fluid, washer fluid, ignitions, batteries, tire pressure, bushings, plastics, even fuel back when EFI was less common, but never issues with brake fluid. Road salt is our big problem here, but that's true for everyone who has winter. FWIW my neighbor has a Tesla and loves it...
MontyCarloHall 5y ago
> The cold hard reality (to paraphrase the alarmist title) is that it isn't that big of a deal. For people who use their EV solely for commuting, it’s not a big deal, since a commute distance is still well below the reduced range in cold temperatures. It is a huge deal for people who take winter road trips. The range reductions cited in the article could easily spell the difference between getting to the destination in one shot, versus having to take a >30 minute stop to recharge midway. 30 minutes is an absolute minimum figure that assumes there’s an available fast charger conveniently close to the route. If not, detours+slow charging could easily add an hour or more to travel time.
- newsclues 5y ago
  - MontyCarloHall 5y ago
    It takes 5 minutes to refuel a gas car, and gas stations are ubiquitous. Most EVs take about 30 minutes to gain an appreciable amount of range at a level 3 charger, which are far from common, thus necessitating a long detour. They also often have long lines—you can easily spend at least as much time waiting for a charger to become available as you will actually charging the car.
  - meragrin_ 5y ago
    Let me know when you charge an EV in under 5 minutes.
- thesuitonym 5y ago
  If only there were a way to take a trip without driving. It would be so nice if there were some kind of large vehicle that multiple people could get in, that had a dedicate right-of-way for long-haul trips, so individuals didn't have to worry about fuel. These hypothetical vehicles could go to multiple high-traffic destinations, so a person could get close to where they wanted to be, and then drive a personal vehicle the rest of the distance, but sleep for most of the trip, or just relax. Unfortunately, no such method of travel ever has or ever will be invented, so I guess we'll just have to rely on internal combustion engines for the rest of eternity.
walnutclosefarm 5y ago
> It's not like they stop working under conditions where ICE vehicles definitely face challenges with both range and reliability. Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. ICE are way less affected by cold than battery vehicles. It's been 2 decades since I even had a block heater for any of my cars or pickups - modern electronic fuel injected engines are very good at properly metering and vaporizing fuel to start at low temps. And yes, they do get reduced mpg, but it's not that much, and given the ubiquity of gas stations, hardly can be talked about as a range limitation. And for the record, they keep the cabin much more comfortable than a lot of electrics can afford to do. Turning those precious kWHs in your battery into heat is brutal on the battery. I think electric vehicles are the future, and I like ours. But no way the article here is wrong: most are not really yet as ready for cold climates as modern ICE are. You get trade-offs). (For the record: I drive (drove, actually, don't drive much at since I retired) mostly in Minnesota. Subzero driving has been part of my life for 50 years.)
kolla 5y ago
ICE veichles will start even if it is cold, I live in the far north of Sweden and we often have -30C and the cars start with no problems even if you dont have a heater in it. This EV test however is barely in cold weather, it gets a lot worse when it's cold.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Yeah, I have never had my car fail to start. Engine heaters are generally used for long term reliability and comfort. Years of daily cold starts can do problems, but most cars on road can start from cold.
015a 5y ago
> Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. Literally no one is doing this, unless you have a diesel engine, you're parked outside, the temperatures are exceptionally cold (<= -10F?), and you weren't planning on driving for more than a day. It's something you'd see on, like, farms or semi truck lots; not houses. The risk of not starting isn't really in the engine itself; it's in the fuel "gelifying". Diesel is gross. But sure; the issue is overblown, especially when the majority of EVs on the list still retain >10% of their maximum battery capacity in freezing weather, and the highest range EVs on the list (where you'd expect to see the highest drop) are only losing a few percentage points. This is not a situation where EVs have a fundamental problem; it's a situation where a few manufacturers (cough Detroit cough) are royally screwing something up.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >Literally no one is doing this, The guy with the 25yo shitbox that doesn't have enough compression to start in the cold is. But I don't think that's the kind of ownership experience you want to be comparing any newish car to.
- 83 5y ago
  > Literally no one is doing this I do, as do multiple members of my immediate family who park our vehicles outside. We have block heaters so we can start them on those -10F mornings. None of us have diesel either - Toyota 4runner, Ford Explorer, GMC Sierra. Every winter we get at least a couple weeks where it's that cold in Wisconsin.
  - DIVx0 5y ago
    OP Should have said "most don't need to do it." I live in Minnesota and its rare to see people use block heaters now days, folks that do are most likely doing it because their parents did. I know from first hand experience that modern ICE cars with proper maintenance will perform just fine in the extremest of Minnesotan winters.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago

UltraViolence 5y ago

I'd say a 50% drop in range IS a big deal. There's none of that with ICE vehicles.

protomyth 5y ago
Anyone who owns a hybrid in the northland probably notices a dip in gas mileage in the winter. My Kia Niro loses about 30% of its gas mileage in the winter months in North Dakota. Its enough of a difference that this will be my last hybrid, and I am going to be very careful when I buy an electric. Since, I live in an apartment currently, I don't really have an option for an electric.
- sjg007 5y ago
  30% isn't that bad. Even petrol cars get similarly bad or worse mileage in the winter. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml Also cars in general as they age gradually get worse mileage.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    > 30% isn't that bad. Even petrol cars get similarly bad or worse mileage in the winter. From the link you linked, city driving 15% and "as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips". That is not really similarly bad or worse.
adrianN 5y ago
Most trips are too short to get the engine up to optimal operating temperature in winter. Cold engines have terrible efficiency, so you lose quite a bit of range in day-to-day driving during winter.

neogodless 5y ago

The article mentions Norway, and it also highlights how many electric vehicles perform nearly as well in very cold conditions, though some (particularly from GM and Ford) do much worse. > In Norway — where half of all new cars are plug-ins — tests show that EVs lose about 20% of their driving range and take longer to charge in cold temperatures, according to the Norwegian Automobile Federation.

dkarl 5y ago
> some (particularly from GM and Ford) do much worse Naturally people who don't like EVs are going to cherry-pick these problems, but the mixed results suggest to me that it's down to a deficiency in the design and testing process at some companies. I had a 2009 Prius where the rubber pad on the metal hatchback handle melted, fell off, and left a thick streak of rubber adhered to my license plate. It was a known issue in that model of Prius and affected a lot of people in the southwestern US. Was it a great engineering challenge to create a handle that could handle such heat? Did they consciously decide to sell something that would fail in an ugly and embarrassing way right below their brand logo? I doubt it; I suspect it was a new design that they failed to test rigorously enough.

rr808 5y ago

Most of Norway like Oslo isn't really arctic cold though. Big continental cities away from the coast are much more frigid. eg Oslo this January was above freezing every day, and only below freezing a few nights. https://www.accuweather.com/en/no/oslo/254946/january-weather/254946 https://www.accuweather.com/en/no/oslo/254946/january-weathe.... Compare that to Chicago https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/chicago/60608/january-weather/348308?year=2022 https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/chicago/60608/january-weat...

rco8786 5y ago
> Most of Norway like Oslo isn't really arctic cold though Oslo is colder than like 90% of the inhabited parts of the planet...it's probably fine to use it as an example when talking about cold weather performance of EVs
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  Average temperature in Oslo is colder than 90% of the planet - but average winter temperature in Oslo is a fairly normal winter temperature for nearly half the planet, especially for the more affluent parts of it. The hottest large city on Earth - Ahvaz, Iran - with a record high of 54C, still recorded a record low of -7C
- lm28469 5y ago
  It really isn't that cold https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine,Oslo,Norway https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Tem...
  - gzer0 5y ago
    When comparing Norway's mean average temperature to the rest of the world, it is clear that it is significantly cooler. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hottest-countries-in-the-world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hottest-c...
    - 5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

I found the brake fluid freezing comment interesting. Quite a bit conflicting info on it when I do a search. Some places say the fluid doesn't actually freeze but becomes too viscous to function properly. Others say it's condensation in the vacuum booster line, effectively making them non-power brakes. And still others say the fluid itself won't freeze, but the water it absorbed will.

bombcar 5y ago
All may be true - DOT 5 brake fluid is silicon based and will not absorb water at all, the others will. Which is why DOT 5 is often found in military trucks.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Yeah, but the claims I saw were including DOT 3, 4 and sometimes 5. At least here in the US, DOT 5 seems to be pretty uncommon.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    3 and 4 (and 5.1) absorb water so who knows what that does at super low temperatures (but it’s rated pretty low as is). I know power steering fluid gets too viscous and can blow out the hoses on a Dodge Avenger because it can’t get through the cooler.
verisimilitude 5y ago
Anecdata: I live in Minnesota. It is cold here ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_weather_records#By_month https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_weather_reco... ) -- and here in my fourth decade of life, never had an issue with brake fluid. I've seen issues in the cold with: electronics, radiator fluid, washer fluid, ignitions, batteries, tire pressure, bushings, plastics, even fuel back when EFI was less common, but never issues with brake fluid. Road salt is our big problem here, but that's true for everyone who has winter. FWIW my neighbor has a Tesla and loves it...

MontyCarloHall 5y ago

> The cold hard reality (to paraphrase the alarmist title) is that it isn't that big of a deal. For people who use their EV solely for commuting, it’s not a big deal, since a commute distance is still well below the reduced range in cold temperatures. It is a huge deal for people who take winter road trips. The range reductions cited in the article could easily spell the difference between getting to the destination in one shot, versus having to take a >30 minute stop to recharge midway. 30 minutes is an absolute minimum figure that assumes there’s an available fast charger conveniently close to the route. If not, detours+slow charging could easily add an hour or more to travel time.

newsclues 5y ago
- MontyCarloHall 5y ago
  It takes 5 minutes to refuel a gas car, and gas stations are ubiquitous. Most EVs take about 30 minutes to gain an appreciable amount of range at a level 3 charger, which are far from common, thus necessitating a long detour. They also often have long lines—you can easily spend at least as much time waiting for a charger to become available as you will actually charging the car.
- meragrin_ 5y ago
  Let me know when you charge an EV in under 5 minutes.
thesuitonym 5y ago
If only there were a way to take a trip without driving. It would be so nice if there were some kind of large vehicle that multiple people could get in, that had a dedicate right-of-way for long-haul trips, so individuals didn't have to worry about fuel. These hypothetical vehicles could go to multiple high-traffic destinations, so a person could get close to where they wanted to be, and then drive a personal vehicle the rest of the distance, but sleep for most of the trip, or just relax. Unfortunately, no such method of travel ever has or ever will be invented, so I guess we'll just have to rely on internal combustion engines for the rest of eternity.

walnutclosefarm 5y ago

> It's not like they stop working under conditions where ICE vehicles definitely face challenges with both range and reliability. Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. ICE are way less affected by cold than battery vehicles. It's been 2 decades since I even had a block heater for any of my cars or pickups - modern electronic fuel injected engines are very good at properly metering and vaporizing fuel to start at low temps. And yes, they do get reduced mpg, but it's not that much, and given the ubiquity of gas stations, hardly can be talked about as a range limitation. And for the record, they keep the cabin much more comfortable than a lot of electrics can afford to do. Turning those precious kWHs in your battery into heat is brutal on the battery. I think electric vehicles are the future, and I like ours. But no way the article here is wrong: most are not really yet as ready for cold climates as modern ICE are. You get trade-offs). (For the record: I drive (drove, actually, don't drive much at since I retired) mostly in Minnesota. Subzero driving has been part of my life for 50 years.)

kolla 5y ago

ICE veichles will start even if it is cold, I live in the far north of Sweden and we often have -30C and the cars start with no problems even if you dont have a heater in it. This EV test however is barely in cold weather, it gets a lot worse when it's cold.

Ekaros 5y ago
Yeah, I have never had my car fail to start. Engine heaters are generally used for long term reliability and comfort. Years of daily cold starts can do problems, but most cars on road can start from cold.

015a 5y ago

> Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. Literally no one is doing this, unless you have a diesel engine, you're parked outside, the temperatures are exceptionally cold (<= -10F?), and you weren't planning on driving for more than a day. It's something you'd see on, like, farms or semi truck lots; not houses. The risk of not starting isn't really in the engine itself; it's in the fuel "gelifying". Diesel is gross. But sure; the issue is overblown, especially when the majority of EVs on the list still retain >10% of their maximum battery capacity in freezing weather, and the highest range EVs on the list (where you'd expect to see the highest drop) are only losing a few percentage points. This is not a situation where EVs have a fundamental problem; it's a situation where a few manufacturers (cough Detroit cough) are royally screwing something up.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Literally no one is doing this, The guy with the 25yo shitbox that doesn't have enough compression to start in the cold is. But I don't think that's the kind of ownership experience you want to be comparing any newish car to.
83 5y ago
> Literally no one is doing this I do, as do multiple members of my immediate family who park our vehicles outside. We have block heaters so we can start them on those -10F mornings. None of us have diesel either - Toyota 4runner, Ford Explorer, GMC Sierra. Every winter we get at least a couple weeks where it's that cold in Wisconsin.
- DIVx0 5y ago
  OP Should have said "most don't need to do it." I live in Minnesota and its rare to see people use block heaters now days, folks that do are most likely doing it because their parents did. I know from first hand experience that modern ICE cars with proper maintenance will perform just fine in the extremest of Minnesotan winters.
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago