5 ms·

Your experience is not universal. In my case the combination of me+software is certainly safer than me alone, and also less taxing for me.

mathieubordere 5y ago
Can you explain how you come to the conclusion that it is safer?
- staktrace 5y ago
  There's been a number of occasions where I would have been in an accident had it not been for the software saving me. Obviously it is possible that one day the software will result in an accident that would not have happened had I been driving alone, but thus far that has not happened, and so, thus far, I can conclude that the combination is better than me alone.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    It’s fairly rare for a driver to be involved in “a number of accidents” in just a few years. Most drivers go decades with zero collisions, so if you’re experiencing multiple per year, saved only by Tesla software, you might try to see if there are other avenues that you could explore to reduce your risk to be more like the population average.
    - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
      I would say close calls are fairly common, especially in urban areas with lots of traffic. It’s not just your driving but the people around you. It takes two to get into an accident.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Right. I suspect that the net effect is that the Tesla software transforms these what would have been close calls into…still close calls where the Tesla software gets credit for a “save”. If a Tesla “saved” a driver 5 times in 20K miles, my first question is always going to be “how many collisions did they have in the prior 20K miles in their other car?”
        staktrace 5y ago
        This is a good point, and I agree. If there was a close call you can't actually say for sure if it would have been a collision without the software.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        This effect has a large influence on the overall A/B analysis. If pre/post test analysis suggests that Tesla saved you from only 0 to 1x collisions vs a previously estimated 4x-5x collisions, your tolerance for newly introduced collisions would naturally be much lower.
    - staktrace 5y ago
      I get what you're trying to say, but if anything, you're just making the case for Tesla software. Consider that there is a range of drivers, from "good" to "bad". If most drivers go decades with zero collisions, that's great, and it probably puts me closer to the "bad" end of the spectrum. By your own admission drivers like me should explore avenues to reduce our risk. Why is Tesla software not a valid avenue? If you're a "good" driver, you don't need it, and that's fine, you can get some other car or drive with autopilot off or whatever. But for us "bad" drivers, the software makes us safer (both personal risk and to others on the road) so why not use it? What other avenues would you suggest exploring?
gugagore 5y ago
One person cannot drive enough miles in their lifetime to allow making a determination that one system is definitely safer than the other. The reliability that we require from an autonomous system means you might never experience a safety failure (again, even if you drive every minute of the rest of your life), but the system is still less safe.
- andi999 5y ago
  Exactly. I mean how many accident do you expect to participate in your lifetime? Like probably 2-3 (scratched bumber) and 0 severe ones.
- kbos87 5y ago
  True, but manufacturers can look at aggregate miles traveled and come to some conclusions about the safety of vehicles without any safety systems, with active safety systems like automatic emergency braking, and in Tesla’s case, Autopilot. They publish the statistics regularly and crashes are far less common per million miles driven when autopilot is engaged.
  - MarcoZavala 5y ago
  - prepend 5y ago
    I think these stats aren’t very useful because 1) Tesla drivers are different than other drives as they are rich. Comparing miles driven by rich people to all miles driven isn’t useful for knowing if Teslas are safer; 2) Tesla has really low numbers so it’s hard to compare a small sample to a huge amount. It would be like comparing walking accidents by 7th Day Adventists. They may walk a million miles among the whole population but that’s nothing compared to the trillion miles of the entire population.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - 5y ago
rootusrootus 5y ago
It comes down to your driving style. Defensive drivers will not like how AP drives, and it makes driving much more tiring, not less. If you are comfortable with the way AP drives, though, I could see it being relaxing. Hell, some people sleep when AP is cruising down the highway, so clearly there is a spectrum.
- frumper 5y ago
  AP somehow doesn't brake soon enough for my comfort when approaching slower cars and it doesn't accelerate quick enough when traffic speeds back up.
misiti3780 5y ago
I agree, and I think most Tesla owners feel this way, given that the AP outrage seems to manifest itself exclusively on hacker news.

mathieubordere 5y ago

Can you explain how you come to the conclusion that it is safer?

staktrace 5y ago
There's been a number of occasions where I would have been in an accident had it not been for the software saving me. Obviously it is possible that one day the software will result in an accident that would not have happened had I been driving alone, but thus far that has not happened, and so, thus far, I can conclude that the combination is better than me alone.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  It’s fairly rare for a driver to be involved in “a number of accidents” in just a few years. Most drivers go decades with zero collisions, so if you’re experiencing multiple per year, saved only by Tesla software, you might try to see if there are other avenues that you could explore to reduce your risk to be more like the population average.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    I would say close calls are fairly common, especially in urban areas with lots of traffic. It’s not just your driving but the people around you. It takes two to get into an accident.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Right. I suspect that the net effect is that the Tesla software transforms these what would have been close calls into…still close calls where the Tesla software gets credit for a “save”. If a Tesla “saved” a driver 5 times in 20K miles, my first question is always going to be “how many collisions did they have in the prior 20K miles in their other car?”
      - staktrace 5y ago
        This is a good point, and I agree. If there was a close call you can't actually say for sure if it would have been a collision without the software.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        This effect has a large influence on the overall A/B analysis. If pre/post test analysis suggests that Tesla saved you from only 0 to 1x collisions vs a previously estimated 4x-5x collisions, your tolerance for newly introduced collisions would naturally be much lower.
  - staktrace 5y ago
    I get what you're trying to say, but if anything, you're just making the case for Tesla software. Consider that there is a range of drivers, from "good" to "bad". If most drivers go decades with zero collisions, that's great, and it probably puts me closer to the "bad" end of the spectrum. By your own admission drivers like me should explore avenues to reduce our risk. Why is Tesla software not a valid avenue? If you're a "good" driver, you don't need it, and that's fine, you can get some other car or drive with autopilot off or whatever. But for us "bad" drivers, the software makes us safer (both personal risk and to others on the road) so why not use it? What other avenues would you suggest exploring?

gugagore 5y ago

One person cannot drive enough miles in their lifetime to allow making a determination that one system is definitely safer than the other. The reliability that we require from an autonomous system means you might never experience a safety failure (again, even if you drive every minute of the rest of your life), but the system is still less safe.

andi999 5y ago
Exactly. I mean how many accident do you expect to participate in your lifetime? Like probably 2-3 (scratched bumber) and 0 severe ones.
kbos87 5y ago
True, but manufacturers can look at aggregate miles traveled and come to some conclusions about the safety of vehicles without any safety systems, with active safety systems like automatic emergency braking, and in Tesla’s case, Autopilot. They publish the statistics regularly and crashes are far less common per million miles driven when autopilot is engaged.
- MarcoZavala 5y ago
- prepend 5y ago
  I think these stats aren’t very useful because 1) Tesla drivers are different than other drives as they are rich. Comparing miles driven by rich people to all miles driven isn’t useful for knowing if Teslas are safer; 2) Tesla has really low numbers so it’s hard to compare a small sample to a huge amount. It would be like comparing walking accidents by 7th Day Adventists. They may walk a million miles among the whole population but that’s nothing compared to the trillion miles of the entire population.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- 5y ago

rootusrootus 5y ago

It comes down to your driving style. Defensive drivers will not like how AP drives, and it makes driving much more tiring, not less. If you are comfortable with the way AP drives, though, I could see it being relaxing. Hell, some people sleep when AP is cruising down the highway, so clearly there is a spectrum.

frumper 5y ago
AP somehow doesn't brake soon enough for my comfort when approaching slower cars and it doesn't accelerate quick enough when traffic speeds back up.

misiti3780 5y ago

I agree, and I think most Tesla owners feel this way, given that the AP outrage seems to manifest itself exclusively on hacker news.