5 ms·

I'm guessing you're aware of this, but it's not so simple. There's no indication that after a baseline level of prosperity, greed and malice will simply disappe

I'm guessing you're aware of this, but it's not so simple. There's no indication that after a baseline level of prosperity, greed and malice will simply disappear. While I agree that capitalism is the best system altogether which we have seen in action, I don't believe it is the best one. My hope is that in the long run, technological progress will eliminate scarcicity, and we will see some combination of capitalism and communism to realize utopia.

andrepd 5y ago
Absolutely. "best so far" != "best there can ever be". Western liberal capitalism is heavily flawed, it's just marginally better than the alternatives currently in existance and therefore the best starting point to build an even better one.
- throwaway290 5y ago
  Applying abstract thinking from first principles, what kind of approach could theoretically be better?
throwaway290 5y ago
I am aware it's not so simple, but I strongly believe that fundamentally greed and malice arise from mental issues and insecurities. There is no incentive for a healthy mind that is calm, confident, and knows that others are the same, to maximise own security at the expense of the society.
- mach1ne 5y ago
  Interesting. I hope you are right. I'm afraid I am a bit more cynical.
- frostwarrior 5y ago
  I disagree. Greed and malice are just consequences of an unfair society. The more the people know that rules don't apply to the powerful, then the more the people try to climb the social ladder to become the powerful. Ideally, on a fair system, you are respected because of your skills or your contributions to society. On an unfair one, you are respected because you have a higher hierarchy than them and nothing more. My concern with western people criticizing non-western and non-democratic countries is that, aside from some exceptions like South Korea, Costa Rica or Japan, unfair societies that adopted the western-style model of democratic government didn't become more fair in average. On the contrary, western societies got more unfair over time.
  - throwaway290 5y ago
    Then feel free to disagree. > then the more the people try to climb the social ladder to become the powerful. This happens with people who are deeply insecure. They need to climb the ladder to secure themselves. Greed, power greed, malice comes from insecurity. If you grow up in a world where everyone is respected and everyone feels secure, your parents didn't hurt you, you were not bullied at school, etc., then the only reason for you to strive to secure yourself at the expense of others is if you have grounds to believe others have such issues and will take advantage of you. > Ideally, on a fair system, you are respected because of your skills or your contributions to society No. You are respected. Period. Everyone is. As an aside, capitalism does not make a statement what you should or should not be respected for. We are arguing about something else.
    - frostwarrior 5y ago
      > This happens with people who are deeply insecure. They need to climb the ladder to secure themselves. Greed, power greed, malice comes from insecurity. > If you grow up in a world where everyone is respected and everyone feels secure, your parents didn't hurt you, you were not bullied at school, etc., then the only reason for you to strive to secure yourself at the expense of others is if you have grounds to believe others have such issues and will take advantage of you. The world is insecure by itself. Security is ensured through working institutions and organizations. And that, sadly, happens way more rarely than people in developed nations think. In most countries in the world, the institutions are not strong, and the rule of law is relative. Specially to the rich and powerful. In a society where institutions can't give you security, where there are no ladders to become respected in a legit and ethical way, then malice will be rampant. Because, in that context, that's the only way.
      - throwaway290 5y ago
        The world is not insecure by default. I can't even understand the semantics of that statement. We are talking about actors in human society. Humans are insecure, not the world. Humans are insecure, because humans are hurt. (By other humans, who are trying to secure themselves because they were hurt once, and so on the cycle goes.)

andrepd 5y ago

Absolutely. "best so far" != "best there can ever be". Western liberal capitalism is heavily flawed, it's just marginally better than the alternatives currently in existance and therefore the best starting point to build an even better one.

throwaway290 5y ago
Applying abstract thinking from first principles, what kind of approach could theoretically be better?

throwaway290 5y ago

I am aware it's not so simple, but I strongly believe that fundamentally greed and malice arise from mental issues and insecurities. There is no incentive for a healthy mind that is calm, confident, and knows that others are the same, to maximise own security at the expense of the society.

mach1ne 5y ago
Interesting. I hope you are right. I'm afraid I am a bit more cynical.
frostwarrior 5y ago
I disagree. Greed and malice are just consequences of an unfair society. The more the people know that rules don't apply to the powerful, then the more the people try to climb the social ladder to become the powerful. Ideally, on a fair system, you are respected because of your skills or your contributions to society. On an unfair one, you are respected because you have a higher hierarchy than them and nothing more. My concern with western people criticizing non-western and non-democratic countries is that, aside from some exceptions like South Korea, Costa Rica or Japan, unfair societies that adopted the western-style model of democratic government didn't become more fair in average. On the contrary, western societies got more unfair over time.
- throwaway290 5y ago
  Then feel free to disagree. > then the more the people try to climb the social ladder to become the powerful. This happens with people who are deeply insecure. They need to climb the ladder to secure themselves. Greed, power greed, malice comes from insecurity. If you grow up in a world where everyone is respected and everyone feels secure, your parents didn't hurt you, you were not bullied at school, etc., then the only reason for you to strive to secure yourself at the expense of others is if you have grounds to believe others have such issues and will take advantage of you. > Ideally, on a fair system, you are respected because of your skills or your contributions to society No. You are respected. Period. Everyone is. As an aside, capitalism does not make a statement what you should or should not be respected for. We are arguing about something else.
  - frostwarrior 5y ago
    > This happens with people who are deeply insecure. They need to climb the ladder to secure themselves. Greed, power greed, malice comes from insecurity. > If you grow up in a world where everyone is respected and everyone feels secure, your parents didn't hurt you, you were not bullied at school, etc., then the only reason for you to strive to secure yourself at the expense of others is if you have grounds to believe others have such issues and will take advantage of you. The world is insecure by itself. Security is ensured through working institutions and organizations. And that, sadly, happens way more rarely than people in developed nations think. In most countries in the world, the institutions are not strong, and the rule of law is relative. Specially to the rich and powerful. In a society where institutions can't give you security, where there are no ladders to become respected in a legit and ethical way, then malice will be rampant. Because, in that context, that's the only way.
    - throwaway290 5y ago
      The world is not insecure by default. I can't even understand the semantics of that statement. We are talking about actors in human society. Humans are insecure, not the world. Humans are insecure, because humans are hurt. (By other humans, who are trying to secure themselves because they were hurt once, and so on the cycle goes.)