4 ms·

Does this violate the original DOOM license, which prohibits selling modifications?

by prvc 5y ago

hagbarddenstore 5y ago
Pretty sure Romero knows the license for his own game...
- prvc 5y ago
  He may have written that specific provision, if I recall correctly, all the same though...
  - flatiron 5y ago
    When he was fired from ID he was able to use the quake engine (and any future engine which he wound up using quake 2 for daikatana).
nikanj 5y ago
I don’t think ID would sue Romero
- prvc 5y ago
  They sued Carmack.
  - some-guy 5y ago
    Bethesda sued Carmack, not ID Edit: also that was a much different issue around intellectual property ownership, I don't think even Microsoft / Bethesda will sue over soliciting donations
pimlottc 5y ago
If that’s actually a problem, they could call it a free download with donation.
- kqr 5y ago
  What do you base this legal advice on? Such a paper-thin diversion does not seem to me like it would hold up in any reasonable court.
  - pimlottc 5y ago
    IANAL and this is not legal advice, but it is a tactic I've seen used to distribute cannabis in places where possession has been legalized but it is still against the law to sell [0]. I'm not sure if it is still being used anywhere. In this case, it would be more of a polite fiction, as I don't think anyone is seriously going to take action against a charity effort. 0: https://www.google.com/search?q=free+cannabis+gift https://www.google.com/search?q=free+cannabis+gift
AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
Memory might be getting rusty, but I seem to recall going to Computer Shows back in the mid 90's and buying full DOOM mods/conversions on floppies, like The Simpsons mod or Batman. https://waltersgameboy.tripod.com/simpdoom/ https://waltersgameboy.tripod.com/simpdoom/ AFAIK, they were never sued for it. You still needed the original Doom WAD files to apply the mods over.
- adamrezich 5y ago
  my dad's old "Unofficial DOOM Strategy Guide" is on my bookshelf complete with a mail order for a CD-ROM with "666 new levels". like you said I think as long as you're just distributing WADs, they never really cared.
- flatiron 5y ago
  When reading the “masters of doom” people were selling custom maps on cds and they were just salty they didn’t think of it. Then they put out final and ultimate doom which is basically that. If they didn’t care in the 90s they don’t care now.
  - cheschire 5y ago
    The "they" has changed a couple times since the 90's.
    - flatiron 5y ago
      Suing Romero for a doom 2 map supporting Ukraine is not a PR move any sane company would do.
- DrBoring 5y ago
  I'm the co-author (Walter) of the Ultimate Simpsons Doom mod. We were never sued by Fox (now it would be Disney). Hopefully there is some sort of statute of limitations. Although these days Disney seems to be pretty cool about fan-art. Myk Friedman did pretty much everything for the mod. My contribution was the technical work required to remove id Software assets (graphics & sounds) from the WAD so that it could be published on the popular WAD FTP site of the day. You can read more about it in the "WALTER SAYS" section of the readme at https://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames/themes/simpsons/ulsimpdm.txt https://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames/themes/simpsons/ulsimpdm.... Sadly, Myk passed away a few years back. I never actually spoke with him, it was all over email and USPS, and some facebook when that came around. John Romero appeared on a Doom themed episode of the Netflix show "High Score". In the episode, there was a quick montage of a bunch of Doom mods. The was a split-second of a Simpsons Doom mod that appeared on screen. After careful study, I determined it was the original Simpsons Doom by Steve Blauwkamp & Chuck Fuoco. I was this close to being able to say my work was featured on Netflix. Ah well.
camgunz 5y ago
You're right that Doom was originally released under the Doom Source License, which had a non-commercial-use clause, but it's since been re-released under the GPLv2. But even so, it's irrelevant because all Romero is distributing here is a WAD file, not a modification of Doom itself.
qbasic_forever 5y ago
WAD files like this don't contain any original doom assets and are free to distribute. The files are created by completely independent tools (typically Doom Builder) and only contain binary and text lumps created in whole by the editor. There's no executable code in WAD files that's linked in or becomes a part of the game engine either. You have to have a commercial version of doom 2 to use this level in particular (it cannot run on its own or without the original doom 2 assets). Think of this like a .doc file you're loading in MS Word, but it's new levels for the game. Some total conversions and such could be in a legal grey area or bad place if they take the original assets of the game (sprites, sounds, music, etc) and include them in their WAD files to distribute. There are some projects like Freedoom that recreated the entire asset pack of the original doom games so that someone could use it freely if there are legal concerns.

Does this violate the original DOOM license, which prohibits selling modifications?

by prvc 5y ago

Does this violate the original DOOM license, which prohibits selling modifications?

hagbarddenstore 5y ago

Pretty sure Romero knows the license for his own game...

prvc 5y ago
He may have written that specific provision, if I recall correctly, all the same though...
- flatiron 5y ago
  When he was fired from ID he was able to use the quake engine (and any future engine which he wound up using quake 2 for daikatana).

nikanj 5y ago

I don’t think ID would sue Romero

prvc 5y ago
They sued Carmack.
- some-guy 5y ago
  Bethesda sued Carmack, not ID Edit: also that was a much different issue around intellectual property ownership, I don't think even Microsoft / Bethesda will sue over soliciting donations

pimlottc 5y ago

If that’s actually a problem, they could call it a free download with donation.

kqr 5y ago
What do you base this legal advice on? Such a paper-thin diversion does not seem to me like it would hold up in any reasonable court.
- pimlottc 5y ago
  IANAL and this is not legal advice, but it is a tactic I've seen used to distribute cannabis in places where possession has been legalized but it is still against the law to sell [0]. I'm not sure if it is still being used anywhere. In this case, it would be more of a polite fiction, as I don't think anyone is seriously going to take action against a charity effort. 0: https://www.google.com/search?q=free+cannabis+gift https://www.google.com/search?q=free+cannabis+gift

AdmiralAsshat 5y ago

Memory might be getting rusty, but I seem to recall going to Computer Shows back in the mid 90's and buying full DOOM mods/conversions on floppies, like The Simpsons mod or Batman. https://waltersgameboy.tripod.com/simpdoom/ https://waltersgameboy.tripod.com/simpdoom/ AFAIK, they were never sued for it. You still needed the original Doom WAD files to apply the mods over.

adamrezich 5y ago
my dad's old "Unofficial DOOM Strategy Guide" is on my bookshelf complete with a mail order for a CD-ROM with "666 new levels". like you said I think as long as you're just distributing WADs, they never really cared.
flatiron 5y ago
When reading the “masters of doom” people were selling custom maps on cds and they were just salty they didn’t think of it. Then they put out final and ultimate doom which is basically that. If they didn’t care in the 90s they don’t care now.
- cheschire 5y ago
  The "they" has changed a couple times since the 90's.
  - flatiron 5y ago
    Suing Romero for a doom 2 map supporting Ukraine is not a PR move any sane company would do.
DrBoring 5y ago
I'm the co-author (Walter) of the Ultimate Simpsons Doom mod. We were never sued by Fox (now it would be Disney). Hopefully there is some sort of statute of limitations. Although these days Disney seems to be pretty cool about fan-art. Myk Friedman did pretty much everything for the mod. My contribution was the technical work required to remove id Software assets (graphics & sounds) from the WAD so that it could be published on the popular WAD FTP site of the day. You can read more about it in the "WALTER SAYS" section of the readme at https://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames/themes/simpsons/ulsimpdm.txt https://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames/themes/simpsons/ulsimpdm.... Sadly, Myk passed away a few years back. I never actually spoke with him, it was all over email and USPS, and some facebook when that came around. John Romero appeared on a Doom themed episode of the Netflix show "High Score". In the episode, there was a quick montage of a bunch of Doom mods. The was a split-second of a Simpsons Doom mod that appeared on screen. After careful study, I determined it was the original Simpsons Doom by Steve Blauwkamp & Chuck Fuoco. I was this close to being able to say my work was featured on Netflix. Ah well.

camgunz 5y ago

You're right that Doom was originally released under the Doom Source License, which had a non-commercial-use clause, but it's since been re-released under the GPLv2. But even so, it's irrelevant because all Romero is distributing here is a WAD file, not a modification of Doom itself.

qbasic_forever 5y ago

WAD files like this don't contain any original doom assets and are free to distribute. The files are created by completely independent tools (typically Doom Builder) and only contain binary and text lumps created in whole by the editor. There's no executable code in WAD files that's linked in or becomes a part of the game engine either. You have to have a commercial version of doom 2 to use this level in particular (it cannot run on its own or without the original doom 2 assets). Think of this like a .doc file you're loading in MS Word, but it's new levels for the game. Some total conversions and such could be in a legal grey area or bad place if they take the original assets of the game (sprites, sounds, music, etc) and include them in their WAD files to distribute. There are some projects like Freedoom that recreated the entire asset pack of the original doom games so that someone could use it freely if there are legal concerns.