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Thank you for this. This is why I tend to work alone. There has been a slow, steady cultivation of the perpetually helpless, antagonistic weiner personality ove

Thank you for this. This is why I tend to work alone. There has been a slow, steady cultivation of the perpetually helpless, antagonistic weiner personality over the last 10 years that is an absolute teeth grind. That said, it's good to learn how to differentiate between people who are being genuine and just need guidance/attention and someone who's a wet noodle. It's easy to accidentally discourage the former mischaracterizing them as the latter.

YeezyMode 5y ago
It seems so unlikely to me that large swaths of people who act this way can make it to a place in any industry where they're surrounded by more resourceful peers. How does this even happen? I just want to make sure that I'm not creating a view out of reading exaggerated anecdotes, and that this actually reflects reality.
- uoaei 5y ago
  College degrees or plain salespersonship conferring an inappropriate amount of merit. This is the unfortunate corrolary of impostor syndrome: some people really are impostors. I think if we want to start pushing more people into trades and de-emphasize college education: (1) we make it much harder to graduate college and (2) make college much cheaper so that pursuing that risk isn't ruinous. Then a student can explore a college path and pivot to something more suited to their attitude and skills to remain a productive member of society if it doesn't work out.
- rglover 5y ago
  Worth reading this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle Combine that with the Pareto Principle and you start to get a fairly accurate picture of "why the world is the way it is." And this applies to all industries, not just tech. If you look at it through a nihilist lens, it can bum you out quick. But, if you look at it like "I was given the gift/responsibility to do this well" (sans God-complex, elitist "useless eaters" attitude), it makes it a bit more fun/tolerable.
- thinkr42 5y ago
  I've personally encountered this quite a bit circling around tech, in most of the cases I've seen it was due to _deeply seated_ insecurity more than anything else. Usually it corresponds with folks who find themselves in a position that they're a poor fit for but for whatever reason can't move on. They bounced into a position they can't exit and their 'value add' is applying this sort of tactic under the guise of being helpful externally.
draw_down 5y ago
Hmm, I suspect it’s best to decide upfront what you are willing and unwilling to do. Then others can have whatever “type” of personality they want, that’s their business. The truth is, there are always return volleys you can make, depending on how petty you want to get, or how many cycles you feel like burning with a person like the article describes. For example any statement of the form “you should…” implies a belief in a particular policy, so you can then inquire why they think that should be so. Any question can be answered directly, or you can start asking questions about why they asked the question, or you can just answer a different question entirely. Et cetera. At some level this stuff is war and if people aren’t going to bring their thinking caps, a change in tactic is appropriate.
sovietmudkipz 5y ago
Yea, here's how what you observed in your coworkers changed my behavior. I used to share my free time projects widely with coworkers. Stuff like arduino robotics projects, fun sites I would build for silly reasons, etc. Some coworkers wouldn't enjoy it and instead pick it apart for any reasons that usually starts with "why didn't you just..." It wasn't everyone, but I started to realize that I was triggering negative feelings in some people.
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  ...although it does sound like you found a low-politics way to find out which of your coworkers are worth listening to.
- mathgladiator 5y ago
  That why question sure is haunting isn't it. For example, I invented a programming language for board games and the #1 question I generally get is "why isn't that a framework". The hard part in life is learning to embrace your quirks.
  - RangerScience 5y ago
    > programming language for board games Go onnnnn? :D
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      They had a Show HN a few hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542230 It looks like that's what they're referring to.
    - Tomte 5y ago
      It took me three or four readings to understand your request. Go happens to be both a programming language and a board game, so I promptly forgot about it also being a verb.
    - mathgladiator 5y ago
castratikron 5y ago
I think the author is referring to a somewhat different personality type. While wet noodles will ask you to basically do their job for them, there is another personality that has a confrontational, zero-sum perspective where they are constantly trying to dominate other workers. I've experienced it firsthand, and I eventually found a term for it: a "high conflict" personality [1]. There are a few ways google says you can deal with these personality types, the main one being: do not interact with that person. [1] https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/who-are-high-conflict-people https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/who-are-h...
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  If it's a persistent pattern and not just a result of stress and poor culture - not always easy to tell - they're likely on the Dark Triad spectrum. Or at the very least they don't like you personally and are trying to bully you. It's not usually about the presented issue. The relationship dynamics are the real truth. Everyone has bad days. But if interactions consistently take this direction - especially to the point where anticipating them causes anxiety - it's time to consider moving on.
  - floydian10 5y ago
    > It's not usually about the presented issue. The relationship dynamics are the real truth. Absolutely. I was on the wrong side of such a dynamic until recently, by the end of it (thankfully I switched teams) it was a straight up bullying situation. And much like an abusive romantic relationship, it escalated slowly in a way that was difficult to notice. My point is, yes, do whatever you can to stay away from these kind of people.
    - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
      If it's possible to take a positive out of it, it should mean that the signs are easier to spot earlier if, god forbid, the situation occurs again later in your career. I'm currently (this weekend) going to be applying for jobs to extricate myself from what I recognise as the early stages of exactly such a situation.

YeezyMode 5y ago

It seems so unlikely to me that large swaths of people who act this way can make it to a place in any industry where they're surrounded by more resourceful peers. How does this even happen? I just want to make sure that I'm not creating a view out of reading exaggerated anecdotes, and that this actually reflects reality.

uoaei 5y ago
College degrees or plain salespersonship conferring an inappropriate amount of merit. This is the unfortunate corrolary of impostor syndrome: some people really are impostors. I think if we want to start pushing more people into trades and de-emphasize college education: (1) we make it much harder to graduate college and (2) make college much cheaper so that pursuing that risk isn't ruinous. Then a student can explore a college path and pivot to something more suited to their attitude and skills to remain a productive member of society if it doesn't work out.
rglover 5y ago
Worth reading this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle Combine that with the Pareto Principle and you start to get a fairly accurate picture of "why the world is the way it is." And this applies to all industries, not just tech. If you look at it through a nihilist lens, it can bum you out quick. But, if you look at it like "I was given the gift/responsibility to do this well" (sans God-complex, elitist "useless eaters" attitude), it makes it a bit more fun/tolerable.
thinkr42 5y ago
I've personally encountered this quite a bit circling around tech, in most of the cases I've seen it was due to _deeply seated_ insecurity more than anything else. Usually it corresponds with folks who find themselves in a position that they're a poor fit for but for whatever reason can't move on. They bounced into a position they can't exit and their 'value add' is applying this sort of tactic under the guise of being helpful externally.

draw_down 5y ago

Hmm, I suspect it’s best to decide upfront what you are willing and unwilling to do. Then others can have whatever “type” of personality they want, that’s their business. The truth is, there are always return volleys you can make, depending on how petty you want to get, or how many cycles you feel like burning with a person like the article describes. For example any statement of the form “you should…” implies a belief in a particular policy, so you can then inquire why they think that should be so. Any question can be answered directly, or you can start asking questions about why they asked the question, or you can just answer a different question entirely. Et cetera. At some level this stuff is war and if people aren’t going to bring their thinking caps, a change in tactic is appropriate.

sovietmudkipz 5y ago

Yea, here's how what you observed in your coworkers changed my behavior. I used to share my free time projects widely with coworkers. Stuff like arduino robotics projects, fun sites I would build for silly reasons, etc. Some coworkers wouldn't enjoy it and instead pick it apart for any reasons that usually starts with "why didn't you just..." It wasn't everyone, but I started to realize that I was triggering negative feelings in some people.

rossdavidh 5y ago
...although it does sound like you found a low-politics way to find out which of your coworkers are worth listening to.
mathgladiator 5y ago
That why question sure is haunting isn't it. For example, I invented a programming language for board games and the #1 question I generally get is "why isn't that a framework". The hard part in life is learning to embrace your quirks.
- RangerScience 5y ago
  > programming language for board games Go onnnnn? :D
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    They had a Show HN a few hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30542230 It looks like that's what they're referring to.
  - Tomte 5y ago
    It took me three or four readings to understand your request. Go happens to be both a programming language and a board game, so I promptly forgot about it also being a verb.
  - mathgladiator 5y ago

castratikron 5y ago

I think the author is referring to a somewhat different personality type. While wet noodles will ask you to basically do their job for them, there is another personality that has a confrontational, zero-sum perspective where they are constantly trying to dominate other workers. I've experienced it firsthand, and I eventually found a term for it: a "high conflict" personality [1]. There are a few ways google says you can deal with these personality types, the main one being: do not interact with that person. [1] https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/who-are-high-conflict-people https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/who-are-h...

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
If it's a persistent pattern and not just a result of stress and poor culture - not always easy to tell - they're likely on the Dark Triad spectrum. Or at the very least they don't like you personally and are trying to bully you. It's not usually about the presented issue. The relationship dynamics are the real truth. Everyone has bad days. But if interactions consistently take this direction - especially to the point where anticipating them causes anxiety - it's time to consider moving on.
- floydian10 5y ago
  > It's not usually about the presented issue. The relationship dynamics are the real truth. Absolutely. I was on the wrong side of such a dynamic until recently, by the end of it (thankfully I switched teams) it was a straight up bullying situation. And much like an abusive romantic relationship, it escalated slowly in a way that was difficult to notice. My point is, yes, do whatever you can to stay away from these kind of people.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    If it's possible to take a positive out of it, it should mean that the signs are easier to spot earlier if, god forbid, the situation occurs again later in your career. I'm currently (this weekend) going to be applying for jobs to extricate myself from what I recognise as the early stages of exactly such a situation.