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It leads to me wanting to kill myself more often and needing to invest more time in therapy, commutes, and recovery. And over half the engineers I've spoken wit

It leads to me wanting to kill myself more often and needing to invest more time in therapy, commutes, and recovery. And over half the engineers I've spoken with, who drop their facade, feel the same. Being stuck in a chair all day with people watching you is not a good life. Being forced to adhere to arbitrary social convention instead of speaking sincerely and expressing yourself is not a good life. Choosing to lay in bed, work in the sun, recline on the couch, say hi to your cat, be your most authentic self, is a better life. Personally not dealing with the anxiety and body pain makes me more productive. But maybe everyone is right and we can get more productivity out of people by gutting their personalities and self-appreciation; but if that's the cost, I sincerely do not care. I'd rather everyone enjoy their short lives than spend them colorlessly and regret their choices on their deathbeds.

engineeringwoke 5y ago
How does not being around other people make you your "most authentic" self? We are only human through others. Every word you've ever spoken, every thought you've ever had, is codified in a language that was created over hundreds of thousands of years by people attempting to communicate. Are you anything without that language? It is a description of how you think. I wish it wasn't so popular for people in tech with mental issues to project them onto everyone else, instead of looking at the early family life that made them. Your parents failed if you are so afraid of the other. It is not everyone else's fault that they don't hate people.
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  Putting on clothing with collars and buttons is a huge hit to my sense of "authenticity", to start. You feel pressured to to put on airs, deal with smalltalk, etc.
  - engineeringwoke 5y ago
    But it's only putting on airs and small talk to you. Why is your perception normal and the regular one "fake"? I grew up thinking like you did, in a household of people like this, and there couldn't be anything further from the truth. It's a projection of an insecurity around being unable to control the people around you.
    - electriclizard 5y ago
      I've no interest in controlling the people around me. I'm interested in controlling myself, which I'm not allowed to do at work due to the need to survive. Your choices are determined by your options; you do not pick your options at work, your employer does. Those who it's fake for are not allowed to throw it off. I get my socialization in groups I choose to be a part of where I don't have to curtail my every thought to avoid political retaliation that affects my livelihood. And get a PhD before you start throwing around words like "mental issues" for things you disagree with.
- throwaway675309 5y ago
  Just for reference, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has largely been discredited.
  - engineeringwoke 5y ago
    It wouldn't be hacker news without a pedantic reply that is carefully constructed to have no real counterpoint. Wittgenstein was not wrong. Language is meaningless without its connection to the rest of humanity.
ceras 5y ago
Some people feel exactly the opposite and are happier working in an office than remotely - even if they believe remote work is more productive! Iirc it's very roughly like 20-30% want full remote, 50-60% want some type of hybrid (where there's a wide spectrum of hybrid models, from rarely-in-office to usually-in-office), and 10-20% prefer always or almost-always in office. The ideal situation IMO is to have all options available: some teams are remote, some teams are in-office. The proportion over time should hopefully work out such that everyone can get what they want. Personally, I'm happier and healthier with a hybrid model (where people work in office the same days) than full remote. And like you, I also know I'm not alone because of people I know who are very unhappy right now due to forced remote during COVID. I sincerely hope we soon enter a future where everyone has options that best suit them.
- electriclizard 5y ago
  >I sincerely hope we soon enter a future where everyone has options that best suit them. I'd like that too. I am curious, why do you like going into the office? Does it give you something that you need, or does being remote too long make you uncomfortable because of something your mind is doing to you, which you have to escape?
  - ceras 5y ago
    I enjoy the structure it adds to the day, the built-in activity I get commuting, the ease of adding other activities onto my day before or after work since I work in Manhattan, the office amenities that give me one less thing to worry about (e.g. food), the stronger team bonding and socialization I get from working with people in person, the ease of working through certain nitty gritty problems together and with a whiteboard, and the ease of forming more informal friendships/acquaintanceships with others in the office. I'd also add that I've always had and prioritized a short commute, and I like where I live and wouldn't want to move, so the cons are minimal for me. (The one thing I prefer about remote work is being able to take a 2hr mid-day break those days my brain is just fried; much easier at home, and I can then be more productive after that break.)
    - 5y ago

engineeringwoke 5y ago

How does not being around other people make you your "most authentic" self? We are only human through others. Every word you've ever spoken, every thought you've ever had, is codified in a language that was created over hundreds of thousands of years by people attempting to communicate. Are you anything without that language? It is a description of how you think. I wish it wasn't so popular for people in tech with mental issues to project them onto everyone else, instead of looking at the early family life that made them. Your parents failed if you are so afraid of the other. It is not everyone else's fault that they don't hate people.

shrimp_emoji 5y ago
Putting on clothing with collars and buttons is a huge hit to my sense of "authenticity", to start. You feel pressured to to put on airs, deal with smalltalk, etc.
- engineeringwoke 5y ago
  But it's only putting on airs and small talk to you. Why is your perception normal and the regular one "fake"? I grew up thinking like you did, in a household of people like this, and there couldn't be anything further from the truth. It's a projection of an insecurity around being unable to control the people around you.
  - electriclizard 5y ago
    I've no interest in controlling the people around me. I'm interested in controlling myself, which I'm not allowed to do at work due to the need to survive. Your choices are determined by your options; you do not pick your options at work, your employer does. Those who it's fake for are not allowed to throw it off. I get my socialization in groups I choose to be a part of where I don't have to curtail my every thought to avoid political retaliation that affects my livelihood. And get a PhD before you start throwing around words like "mental issues" for things you disagree with.
throwaway675309 5y ago
Just for reference, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has largely been discredited.
- engineeringwoke 5y ago
  It wouldn't be hacker news without a pedantic reply that is carefully constructed to have no real counterpoint. Wittgenstein was not wrong. Language is meaningless without its connection to the rest of humanity.

ceras 5y ago

Some people feel exactly the opposite and are happier working in an office than remotely - even if they believe remote work is more productive! Iirc it's very roughly like 20-30% want full remote, 50-60% want some type of hybrid (where there's a wide spectrum of hybrid models, from rarely-in-office to usually-in-office), and 10-20% prefer always or almost-always in office. The ideal situation IMO is to have all options available: some teams are remote, some teams are in-office. The proportion over time should hopefully work out such that everyone can get what they want. Personally, I'm happier and healthier with a hybrid model (where people work in office the same days) than full remote. And like you, I also know I'm not alone because of people I know who are very unhappy right now due to forced remote during COVID. I sincerely hope we soon enter a future where everyone has options that best suit them.

electriclizard 5y ago
>I sincerely hope we soon enter a future where everyone has options that best suit them. I'd like that too. I am curious, why do you like going into the office? Does it give you something that you need, or does being remote too long make you uncomfortable because of something your mind is doing to you, which you have to escape?
- ceras 5y ago
  I enjoy the structure it adds to the day, the built-in activity I get commuting, the ease of adding other activities onto my day before or after work since I work in Manhattan, the office amenities that give me one less thing to worry about (e.g. food), the stronger team bonding and socialization I get from working with people in person, the ease of working through certain nitty gritty problems together and with a whiteboard, and the ease of forming more informal friendships/acquaintanceships with others in the office. I'd also add that I've always had and prioritized a short commute, and I like where I live and wouldn't want to move, so the cons are minimal for me. (The one thing I prefer about remote work is being able to take a 2hr mid-day break those days my brain is just fried; much easier at home, and I can then be more productive after that break.)
  - 5y ago