3 ms·

> I have had coworkers literally disappear for days at a time, miss meetings for weeks at a time, constantly miss deadlines etc As a manager why cant you call

by sumedh 5y ago

> I have had coworkers literally disappear for days at a time, miss meetings for weeks at a time, constantly miss deadlines etc As a manager why cant you call out this behaviour when you see people slacking off?

khazhoux 5y ago
I don't know about disappearing for days and weeks, but as a manager I can say that in practice, performance problems are often subtle and hard to detect. I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to be at your desk to get work done, and I do my own best work usually hiding away somewhere quiet. However, with the middle- to low-performers, I admit it's disquieting to suspect that some people are working only an hour a day, but I have no way to confirm.
- eertami 5y ago
  Unless their performance becomes unacceptable, I don't see the problem that someone works only an hour per day.
  - khazhoux 5y ago
    Well, I did say "middle- to low-performers" above. But regardless, I disagree with your premise. Software engineering, as a profession, is based largely on trust. This isn't a factory where you have to solder a set number of devices to meet your target numbers. This isn't an animation studio where you have to animate a certain number of director-approved frames ("footage") a week in order to meet your performance expectations. In our field, the engineer largely decides on their own how much time a task should take, and the manager hopefully trusts their estimate. The *assumption* (and it's not spelled out in your employment contract because we're supposed to be professionals) is that a day of effort means a "full day" of 7-9 hours (or whatever, the precise number isn't the point). So if I, as a manager, ask you, the developer, how long this feature will take to build out, and you tell me "5 days", well I think it's fair for me to expect you meant 5 "full" days. And because I trust you, I'm not going to look over your shoulder or try to pre-solve the problem you're working on -- I will ideally just trust that it takes you 5 days. And because I think highly of you, I will trust that the work takes a dedicated and fast-working developer 5 days to finish, and that's that. If I find out that all along, you really were working only an hour a day, then I think it's fair for me to say: "What the actual fuck, you tell me these tasks require a week of effort but they really could have been done in one day, and the project could have been moving 5x faster than it has been." But... the other option, I suppose, is for managers to decide by themselves how long each feature and bugfix should take, and not ask the developers or take their feedback, and then the manager can evaluate the developers' performance based on that. As a manager, I'll look at a task and say "I want this done in 1 day" and when you tell me "That's not possible, it will take at least a week" I'll just say "Too bad -- get to work". We don't want that.... do we?
    - craigie 5y ago
      >This isn't a factory where you have to solder a set number of devices to meet your target numbers. This isn't an animation studio where you have to animate a certain number of director-approved frames ("footage") a week in order to meet your performance expectations. Wait you don't have KPIs?
- sumedh 5y ago
  > I admit it's disquieting to suspect that some people are working only an hour a day A tiny minority might be doing that but I dont think the vast majority work only 1 hour a day. Are also saying that you can figure out an employee is working only 1 hour a day when you are in the office?
  - khazhoux 5y ago
    I agree... the number of people truly slacking off is vanishingly small. And no, I can't tell if someone is "actually working" just by being in the office. I have no interest in standing behind them at their desk all day. On the other hand, I had one case where someone on my team had like zero committed code in weeks, and was WFH'ing several days a week (pre-pandemic) as an arrangement he'd made with his previous manager. When we had "the talk" about his low performance, one of the things I asked him was to stop with the WFH except for emergencies. That did, in fact, help keep him more accountable for his time, and being physically present helped him interact with the rest of the team and spend time whiteboarding, etc. And performance overall improved. Is there a lesson there to generalize? Maybe, not sure. It's all very context- and individual- dependent.

by sumedh 5y ago

khazhoux 5y ago

I don't know about disappearing for days and weeks, but as a manager I can say that in practice, performance problems are often subtle and hard to detect. I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to be at your desk to get work done, and I do my own best work usually hiding away somewhere quiet. However, with the middle- to low-performers, I admit it's disquieting to suspect that some people are working only an hour a day, but I have no way to confirm.

eertami 5y ago
Unless their performance becomes unacceptable, I don't see the problem that someone works only an hour per day.
- khazhoux 5y ago
  Well, I did say "middle- to low-performers" above. But regardless, I disagree with your premise. Software engineering, as a profession, is based largely on trust. This isn't a factory where you have to solder a set number of devices to meet your target numbers. This isn't an animation studio where you have to animate a certain number of director-approved frames ("footage") a week in order to meet your performance expectations. In our field, the engineer largely decides on their own how much time a task should take, and the manager hopefully trusts their estimate. The *assumption* (and it's not spelled out in your employment contract because we're supposed to be professionals) is that a day of effort means a "full day" of 7-9 hours (or whatever, the precise number isn't the point). So if I, as a manager, ask you, the developer, how long this feature will take to build out, and you tell me "5 days", well I think it's fair for me to expect you meant 5 "full" days. And because I trust you, I'm not going to look over your shoulder or try to pre-solve the problem you're working on -- I will ideally just trust that it takes you 5 days. And because I think highly of you, I will trust that the work takes a dedicated and fast-working developer 5 days to finish, and that's that. If I find out that all along, you really were working only an hour a day, then I think it's fair for me to say: "What the actual fuck, you tell me these tasks require a week of effort but they really could have been done in one day, and the project could have been moving 5x faster than it has been." But... the other option, I suppose, is for managers to decide by themselves how long each feature and bugfix should take, and not ask the developers or take their feedback, and then the manager can evaluate the developers' performance based on that. As a manager, I'll look at a task and say "I want this done in 1 day" and when you tell me "That's not possible, it will take at least a week" I'll just say "Too bad -- get to work". We don't want that.... do we?
  - craigie 5y ago
    >This isn't a factory where you have to solder a set number of devices to meet your target numbers. This isn't an animation studio where you have to animate a certain number of director-approved frames ("footage") a week in order to meet your performance expectations. Wait you don't have KPIs?
sumedh 5y ago
> I admit it's disquieting to suspect that some people are working only an hour a day A tiny minority might be doing that but I dont think the vast majority work only 1 hour a day. Are also saying that you can figure out an employee is working only 1 hour a day when you are in the office?
- khazhoux 5y ago
  I agree... the number of people truly slacking off is vanishingly small. And no, I can't tell if someone is "actually working" just by being in the office. I have no interest in standing behind them at their desk all day. On the other hand, I had one case where someone on my team had like zero committed code in weeks, and was WFH'ing several days a week (pre-pandemic) as an arrangement he'd made with his previous manager. When we had "the talk" about his low performance, one of the things I asked him was to stop with the WFH except for emergencies. That did, in fact, help keep him more accountable for his time, and being physically present helped him interact with the rest of the team and spend time whiteboarding, etc. And performance overall improved. Is there a lesson there to generalize? Maybe, not sure. It's all very context- and individual- dependent.