4 ms·

> What does a 1972 paper If this is supposed to evoke feelings of "wow that's so old, how could anybody know interesting stuff back then?", and that's your att

by bch 5y ago

> What does a 1972 paper If this is supposed to evoke feelings of "wow that's so old, how could anybody know interesting stuff back then?", and that's your attitude, you're simply missing out. So much interesting work from ye olden days... And of course there could hardly be a better example than Parnas.

wasabigeek 5y ago
oof, not my intent, sorry about that do you have a "best of" list to share?
- bch 5y ago
  > do you have a "best of" list to share? This Parnas paper we are discussing is one, and lately Ive been poring over "Document Processing in a Relational Database System (83)" by Stonebraker, et al, and I also really enjoy Ousterhout papers, though he seems to be enjoying a bit of a renaissance so a search is likely to pull up his modern work, which is fine - you'll find raft papers, philosophy of software design, and performance measuring, which to me still feel like they're channeling a bit of the same spirit as these more classic papers we're discussing. Since we're discussing classics - i'd be keen to have others jump in here too and (again) raise the profile of some perhaps underloved gems.
  - wasabigeek 5y ago
    Thanks for this! I remember watching a video on the philosophy of software design (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmSAYlu0NcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmSAYlu0NcY) but I'll definitely need to re-watch/read, as well as check out the rest of his work. Do you have a suggestion on how the article title could be better? I came across Robert Martin's post while trying to build a better intuition for SRP, and it referenced the Parnas paper. So the title was really me thinking "What does this paper have to do with the SRP?", though the '1972' was both for convenience (e.g. "What does 'On the Criteria to be Used in Decomposing Systems' have to do with the single responsibility principle"? is too long) and intrigue. Perhaps "How a 1972 paper relates to the Single Responsibility Principle"? The Parnas paper wasn't one that Martin initially credited for the SRP as well (see https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/downing/papers/SRP-1996.pdf https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/downing/papers/SRP-1996.pdf), so I didn't feel comfortable claiming that it had direct influence (e.g. "The paper that influenced the Single Responsibility Principle").
    - bch 5y ago
      OT: s/Ontaro/Ongaro/g > Do you have a suggestion on how the article title could be better? I read "What does x have to do with y?" as implicitly dismissive, based on my experience. Its often rhetorical. "How a Paper From 1972 Solved Your OO SRP Problems From The 1990s and Beyond" seems more charitable and interesting to my ears. That title needs some editorial attention itself, but its a start. Anyway, you got a discussion started and hopefully illuminated some to good design, so your submission was a success.
khaledh 5y ago
True. - Functional programming started with Lisp in 1958 (McCarthy), and theoretically before that with Lambda calculus in the 1930s (Church) - Object-oriented programming started with Simula in the 1960s, extended with Smalltalk in the 1970s, before C++ picked it up in the 1980s. - Unix was invented in 1969, which drew on ideas from Multics several years prior - Virtual memory was implemented in Atlas (1962) and popularized in the 1970s - Virtual machines first appeared in IBM CP/CMS around 1967 - Concurrency issues and solutions like semaphores, locks, condition variables, etc were invented in the late 1960s (Dijkstra) - The concept of cloud computing was invented in the 1960s with commercial time-sharing services - The concept of a database was invented in the 1960s with the Integrated Data Store (IDS) in 1964 (Bachman) - The relational model for databases was invented in the early 1970s (Codd) - SQL was invented in the 1970s (Chamberlin and Boyce) And many more.
ncr100 5y ago
Thank you for taking this "smell" in a positive direction bch. It constructively adds to the conversation. Now I'm older, I am getting that "hit" of "whoa that is offensive" more than I expected, vs when I first contemplated Ageism as a young software engineer. I thought it wouldn't be something I'd see much of, back then. I've yet to quantify the negative impact, today. Wasabigeek apologizes, here, for that perception as being unintentional, which is totally understandable ... and I believe bias is difficult to spot in oneself, from personal experience of having unintentional biases. Subjectivity vs Objectivity when it comes to oneself is ripe with tragedy. [Human condition.]

by bch 5y ago

wasabigeek 5y ago

oof, not my intent, sorry about that do you have a "best of" list to share?

bch 5y ago
> do you have a "best of" list to share? This Parnas paper we are discussing is one, and lately Ive been poring over "Document Processing in a Relational Database System (83)" by Stonebraker, et al, and I also really enjoy Ousterhout papers, though he seems to be enjoying a bit of a renaissance so a search is likely to pull up his modern work, which is fine - you'll find raft papers, philosophy of software design, and performance measuring, which to me still feel like they're channeling a bit of the same spirit as these more classic papers we're discussing. Since we're discussing classics - i'd be keen to have others jump in here too and (again) raise the profile of some perhaps underloved gems.
- wasabigeek 5y ago
  Thanks for this! I remember watching a video on the philosophy of software design (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmSAYlu0NcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmSAYlu0NcY) but I'll definitely need to re-watch/read, as well as check out the rest of his work. Do you have a suggestion on how the article title could be better? I came across Robert Martin's post while trying to build a better intuition for SRP, and it referenced the Parnas paper. So the title was really me thinking "What does this paper have to do with the SRP?", though the '1972' was both for convenience (e.g. "What does 'On the Criteria to be Used in Decomposing Systems' have to do with the single responsibility principle"? is too long) and intrigue. Perhaps "How a 1972 paper relates to the Single Responsibility Principle"? The Parnas paper wasn't one that Martin initially credited for the SRP as well (see https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/downing/papers/SRP-1996.pdf https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/downing/papers/SRP-1996.pdf), so I didn't feel comfortable claiming that it had direct influence (e.g. "The paper that influenced the Single Responsibility Principle").
  - bch 5y ago
    OT: s/Ontaro/Ongaro/g > Do you have a suggestion on how the article title could be better? I read "What does x have to do with y?" as implicitly dismissive, based on my experience. Its often rhetorical. "How a Paper From 1972 Solved Your OO SRP Problems From The 1990s and Beyond" seems more charitable and interesting to my ears. That title needs some editorial attention itself, but its a start. Anyway, you got a discussion started and hopefully illuminated some to good design, so your submission was a success.

khaledh 5y ago

True. - Functional programming started with Lisp in 1958 (McCarthy), and theoretically before that with Lambda calculus in the 1930s (Church) - Object-oriented programming started with Simula in the 1960s, extended with Smalltalk in the 1970s, before C++ picked it up in the 1980s. - Unix was invented in 1969, which drew on ideas from Multics several years prior - Virtual memory was implemented in Atlas (1962) and popularized in the 1970s - Virtual machines first appeared in IBM CP/CMS around 1967 - Concurrency issues and solutions like semaphores, locks, condition variables, etc were invented in the late 1960s (Dijkstra) - The concept of cloud computing was invented in the 1960s with commercial time-sharing services - The concept of a database was invented in the 1960s with the Integrated Data Store (IDS) in 1964 (Bachman) - The relational model for databases was invented in the early 1970s (Codd) - SQL was invented in the 1970s (Chamberlin and Boyce) And many more.

ncr100 5y ago

Thank you for taking this "smell" in a positive direction bch. It constructively adds to the conversation. Now I'm older, I am getting that "hit" of "whoa that is offensive" more than I expected, vs when I first contemplated Ageism as a young software engineer. I thought it wouldn't be something I'd see much of, back then. I've yet to quantify the negative impact, today. Wasabigeek apologizes, here, for that perception as being unintentional, which is totally understandable ... and I believe bias is difficult to spot in oneself, from personal experience of having unintentional biases. Subjectivity vs Objectivity when it comes to oneself is ripe with tragedy. [Human condition.]