4 ms·

I strongly disagree with these punishment options. On one hand jail is overkill for the majority of cases. We as a country jail too many people as it is, and co

by pavon 5y ago

I strongly disagree with these punishment options. On one hand jail is overkill for the majority of cases. We as a country jail too many people as it is, and correctly assigning prison sentences to the appropriate person when crimes are committed by a corporation is something our justice system does poorly. On the other hand a $750 fine is completely inadequate to prevent abuses. The huge gap between fining management a few days (or hours) of pay, or jailing them for months is bizarre, yet those are the only options given to the judge.

ryan_lane 5y ago
Wage theft is the largest segment of theft, and the penalties there are only fines. Other forms of theft are punished almost exclusively via jailtime. In general, corporate crimes are punished with fines, and are absorbed by the businesses, offering no real deterrent, and absolutely no personal responsibility. Normally I wouldn't be in favor of putting more people in jail, but we do need some form of a real deterrent for corporate crime, and making people think about their personal actions at work will hopefully change the culture of compliance.
namlem 5y ago
I think the jail clauses are in there to act as a chilling effect and deter employers from putting in the clauses at all without consulting an attorney. Basically playing the Uno reverse card on employers who put unenforceable non-competes in contracts to deter employers from leaving. In principle, I agree that jail time is too harsh, but I have to admit I find it satisfying to turn the tables like that. Plus it's not like the jail term is ever going to be used.
wpietri 5y ago
Why is it overkill? In Colorado, if you steal goods worth $50-$300, you can do up to 6 months in jail. [1] An improper non-compete could cost a worker a lot more than that and it's a max of 4 months in jail. [1] https://www.cliftonblacklaw.com/practice-areas/criminal-defense/theft-offenses/what-are-the-penalties-for-theft/ https://www.cliftonblacklaw.com/practice-areas/criminal-defe...
- minhazm 5y ago
  That's also overkill. 6 months in prison for $300 of stolen good is cruel and unnecessary. The average annual cost per inmate for Colorado is nearly $40k [1], so at six months it's $20k. $300 stolen costs the state $20k, that's just absurd. At that amount you should get some sort of forced community service option before any sort of jail time is considered, or a fine at like 5x the amount paid to the person you stole it from. [1] https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends-prison-spending https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-stat...
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    You don't get six months for a first offence, in practice you get six months for the 8th time you stole $300.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I agree. But I think the only way we'll solve this issue is by having sentencing parity for white-collar crimes. Right now plenty of people look at that and say, "It's obvious that Those People will only learn if they're strictly punished. We can't be soft on crime!" But if we have similar sentences for things like wage theft, where many more people will identify with the perp, I think they'll be much more willing to say, "Gosh, that seems like overkill."
Jcampuzano2 5y ago
Completely agree with this. We put way too many people in jail. And a lot of the times it may just be the "fall-guy" who gets put in the slammer rather than the people who made the decision behind closed doors. And besides, there will be companies who will just have teams of lawyers prepared to make sure it never becomes a jail sentence. $750 is ridiculously low to the point where almost any company would see that as a cost of doing business. It needs to be much more harsh to do any real damage to corporate finances.
TheCoelacanth 5y ago
I'm glad some laws are finally applying appropriate punishments for corporate malfeasance. Until we start giving jail time to executives who willfully and openly violate laws, we don't have a chance of stopping the onslaught of corporate lawlessness. The punishments we give are too harsh on petty crimes committed by the poor and powerless, but far to lenient on the vast crimes of the rich and powerful.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  "The poor and powerless" can't afford legal representation (and public defenders are notoriously poorly funded), so they're easier to prosecute. They also can't afford lobbyists, so they didn't write the laws in the first place. I was pleased to learn that the new supreme court nominee has worked as a public defender.

by pavon 5y ago

ryan_lane 5y ago

Wage theft is the largest segment of theft, and the penalties there are only fines. Other forms of theft are punished almost exclusively via jailtime. In general, corporate crimes are punished with fines, and are absorbed by the businesses, offering no real deterrent, and absolutely no personal responsibility. Normally I wouldn't be in favor of putting more people in jail, but we do need some form of a real deterrent for corporate crime, and making people think about their personal actions at work will hopefully change the culture of compliance.

namlem 5y ago

I think the jail clauses are in there to act as a chilling effect and deter employers from putting in the clauses at all without consulting an attorney. Basically playing the Uno reverse card on employers who put unenforceable non-competes in contracts to deter employers from leaving. In principle, I agree that jail time is too harsh, but I have to admit I find it satisfying to turn the tables like that. Plus it's not like the jail term is ever going to be used.

wpietri 5y ago

Why is it overkill? In Colorado, if you steal goods worth $50-$300, you can do up to 6 months in jail. [1] An improper non-compete could cost a worker a lot more than that and it's a max of 4 months in jail. [1] https://www.cliftonblacklaw.com/practice-areas/criminal-defense/theft-offenses/what-are-the-penalties-for-theft/ https://www.cliftonblacklaw.com/practice-areas/criminal-defe...

minhazm 5y ago
That's also overkill. 6 months in prison for $300 of stolen good is cruel and unnecessary. The average annual cost per inmate for Colorado is nearly $40k [1], so at six months it's $20k. $300 stolen costs the state $20k, that's just absurd. At that amount you should get some sort of forced community service option before any sort of jail time is considered, or a fine at like 5x the amount paid to the person you stole it from. [1] https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends-prison-spending https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-stat...
- willcipriano 5y ago
  You don't get six months for a first offence, in practice you get six months for the 8th time you stole $300.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I agree. But I think the only way we'll solve this issue is by having sentencing parity for white-collar crimes. Right now plenty of people look at that and say, "It's obvious that Those People will only learn if they're strictly punished. We can't be soft on crime!" But if we have similar sentences for things like wage theft, where many more people will identify with the perp, I think they'll be much more willing to say, "Gosh, that seems like overkill."

Jcampuzano2 5y ago

Completely agree with this. We put way too many people in jail. And a lot of the times it may just be the "fall-guy" who gets put in the slammer rather than the people who made the decision behind closed doors. And besides, there will be companies who will just have teams of lawyers prepared to make sure it never becomes a jail sentence. $750 is ridiculously low to the point where almost any company would see that as a cost of doing business. It needs to be much more harsh to do any real damage to corporate finances.

TheCoelacanth 5y ago

I'm glad some laws are finally applying appropriate punishments for corporate malfeasance. Until we start giving jail time to executives who willfully and openly violate laws, we don't have a chance of stopping the onslaught of corporate lawlessness. The punishments we give are too harsh on petty crimes committed by the poor and powerless, but far to lenient on the vast crimes of the rich and powerful.

jessaustin 5y ago
"The poor and powerless" can't afford legal representation (and public defenders are notoriously poorly funded), so they're easier to prosecute. They also can't afford lobbyists, so they didn't write the laws in the first place. I was pleased to learn that the new supreme court nominee has worked as a public defender.