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indeed.. I think there is a chance Europe will offer air support in Ukraine, and get drawn into this conflict, and thus be at war with Russia. which will mean E

indeed.. I think there is a chance Europe will offer air support in Ukraine, and get drawn into this conflict, and thus be at war with Russia. which will mean EU, USA, UK, CAN, AUS .. will be at war with Russia. ie. WWIII. I see the attack on Ukraine as an existential threat to the West as a whole - and Im probably not the only one asking if maybe its worth risking nuclear conflict. Can we trust Putin with a nuclear arsenal in any case, even if he withdraws ?

shrimp_emoji 5y ago
It's not really WW3 unless China joins. "The West" vs. Russia is just a military execution of Russia.
- csmiller 5y ago
  What’s the plan to stop their nukes?
  - topspin 5y ago
    Leave no doubt that MAD still applies. That reality remains the one means we have of stopping their nukes.
- nil-sec 5y ago
  Insane take, the west vs Russia in open confrontation ends in a nuclear winter.
archagon 5y ago
Nothing - as in literally nothing - is worth seriously risking nuclear conflict. I can’t believe intelligent people are even entertaining this thought. The war is a travesty of the highest order, but I fear an existential threat to the West far, far less than the extinguishing of human civilization. Even the worst authoritarian empires, on a multi-generational timescale, can be outlasted. Nuclear war cannot.
- jstgord 5y ago
  well this is what Putin is gambling on - that he is willing to go closer to the nuclear brink and thus will win. That was true a month ago, I'm not sure its true today. Wars are not decided based on pure logic - we are somewhat intelligent apes, we will risk it all to defend our tribe - particularly if we feel the aggression is unfair and unjustified.
- moistly 5y ago
  Democracy is worth the risk. Defeating a “superpower” dictatorship is worth the risk.
  - archagon 5y ago
    If the risk is too high, no it is not, almost tautologically so. If nothing is left of humanity but a smoldering crater, then democracy is, and always has been, entirely meaningless. And the survivors (if any) would never forgive us. Your logic is left over from pre-nuclear times, when it still made sense. As horrifying as it might be be to face this cold, post-nuclear calculus, we must do it to survive as a species. Which is not to say that we should not push back against aggressive dictators — we must, as much as we are able — but conventional warfare between nuclear powers has to forever be off the table.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      >>> Nothing - as in literally nothing - is worth seriously risking nuclear conflict. > If the risk is too high, no it is not Which shows why your original statement was wrong: It depends on how high the risk is. If the risk is low enough, it may be worth taking. Remains only to find out exactly how high it is... Which becomes, AFAICS, an investigation into the psyche of Vladimir Putin.
      - archagon 5y ago
        Maybe I was unclear. This is why I used the phrasing "seriously risking".
koonsolo 5y ago
> I think there is a chance Europe will offer air support in Ukraine I was thinking about that. They are now going to deliver some Migs to the Ukrainian army, because their pilots can already operate those. But let's say they don't have enough pilots for that, who is to say who's operating those Migs? Some Polish volunteers that joined the foreign army recently? Russia also pulled that stunt in the east where Russian "volunteers" are fighting alongside the separatists.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > They are now going to deliver some Migs to the Ukrainian army No, they aren’t. That now-deleted tweeted from an adviser to European Parliament doesn’t reflect reality, and has been denied by NATO, Poland (who was the one state specifically rumored to be providing planes), and every other source its been attempted to be confirmed with.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    damn

shrimp_emoji 5y ago

It's not really WW3 unless China joins. "The West" vs. Russia is just a military execution of Russia.

csmiller 5y ago
What’s the plan to stop their nukes?
- topspin 5y ago
  Leave no doubt that MAD still applies. That reality remains the one means we have of stopping their nukes.
nil-sec 5y ago
Insane take, the west vs Russia in open confrontation ends in a nuclear winter.

archagon 5y ago

Nothing - as in literally nothing - is worth seriously risking nuclear conflict. I can’t believe intelligent people are even entertaining this thought. The war is a travesty of the highest order, but I fear an existential threat to the West far, far less than the extinguishing of human civilization. Even the worst authoritarian empires, on a multi-generational timescale, can be outlasted. Nuclear war cannot.

jstgord 5y ago
well this is what Putin is gambling on - that he is willing to go closer to the nuclear brink and thus will win. That was true a month ago, I'm not sure its true today. Wars are not decided based on pure logic - we are somewhat intelligent apes, we will risk it all to defend our tribe - particularly if we feel the aggression is unfair and unjustified.
moistly 5y ago
Democracy is worth the risk. Defeating a “superpower” dictatorship is worth the risk.
- archagon 5y ago
  If the risk is too high, no it is not, almost tautologically so. If nothing is left of humanity but a smoldering crater, then democracy is, and always has been, entirely meaningless. And the survivors (if any) would never forgive us. Your logic is left over from pre-nuclear times, when it still made sense. As horrifying as it might be be to face this cold, post-nuclear calculus, we must do it to survive as a species. Which is not to say that we should not push back against aggressive dictators — we must, as much as we are able — but conventional warfare between nuclear powers has to forever be off the table.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    >>> Nothing - as in literally nothing - is worth seriously risking nuclear conflict. > If the risk is too high, no it is not Which shows why your original statement was wrong: It depends on how high the risk is. If the risk is low enough, it may be worth taking. Remains only to find out exactly how high it is... Which becomes, AFAICS, an investigation into the psyche of Vladimir Putin.
    - archagon 5y ago
      Maybe I was unclear. This is why I used the phrasing "seriously risking".

koonsolo 5y ago

> I think there is a chance Europe will offer air support in Ukraine I was thinking about that. They are now going to deliver some Migs to the Ukrainian army, because their pilots can already operate those. But let's say they don't have enough pilots for that, who is to say who's operating those Migs? Some Polish volunteers that joined the foreign army recently? Russia also pulled that stunt in the east where Russian "volunteers" are fighting alongside the separatists.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> They are now going to deliver some Migs to the Ukrainian army No, they aren’t. That now-deleted tweeted from an adviser to European Parliament doesn’t reflect reality, and has been denied by NATO, Poland (who was the one state specifically rumored to be providing planes), and every other source its been attempted to be confirmed with.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  damn