14 ms·

Ericsson workers were kidnapped when telco sent them to negotiate with ISIS

226 points by titoCA321 5y ago

cbg0 5y ago
> One told German public broadcaster NDR that he was sent to Mosul with a letter on behalf of Ericsson seeking permission from the terror group for them to continue working there. Some people have zero self preservation. I wouldn't go deliver something to a terrorist group for any amount of money.
- princeb 5y ago
  it's a company like ericsson. if this person didn't have too much an idea of the world i can imagine he'd just think negotiating with what the US calls "terrorists" is just BAU in this part of the world. i mean, i can imagine large swathes of human habitation where society is organized around deadly force. literally one country exists right at the border, where cartels manage the economy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  If you're doing infrastructure for the old regime and you're not particularly attached to the old regime and a new regime shows up it's completely normal to send some reps to figure out if the project is to be continued and the details thereof. Obviously there are situational judgement calls that can't be captured by slinging stupid internet rules of thumb around but this is Ericson we're talking about. They're providing basic infrastructure stuff that anyone seeking to run a state needs. That's a pretty neutral thing to be involved in. It's not like they are a defense contractor who were supplying the people shooting at the new regime a week ago. And in this case it was a local contractor so that adds a potential layer of baggage.
  - titoCA321 5y ago
    > The contractor was kept under house arrest, and claimed that the Ericsson manager then stopped answering his calls. "He abandoned me, he turned off the phone and disappeared." In some organizations it's also typical to throw the contractor and underlings under the bus when the project turns to sh*t.
    - krisoft 5y ago
      That was the perception of the employee. Clearly the whole thing is way out of normal, but what do you expect from the manager when they are informed that one of their employees are taken hostage? Become a trained hostage negotiator and one-man-army? Later the article says: > But the report says that one of the company's partners "made arrangements" with IS to secure his release and let the company continue its work in Mosul. So no, the person wasn't abandoned. There is a lot of questions about the manager's conduct before the kidnapping. How the heck did things end up there? But first thing I would expect from the manager after the kidnapping is to find a professional to handle the situation. And the professional very well might advice the manager to cut communications.
      - toss1 5y ago
        What do I expect from the manager? Not to become a hostage negotiator darmy, but to hand the phone and the matter off to a proper hostage negotiator and army. Not to just forking ghost the guy.
      - posterboy 5y ago
        > There is a lot of questions about the manager's conduct before the kidnapping. How the heck did things end up there? Ali's brother runs with the crew and will keep an eye out, something like that I imagine.
  - JoeyBananas 5y ago
    > but this is Ericson we're talking about. They're providing basic infrastructure stuff that anyone seeking to run a state needs. That's a pretty neutral thing to be involved in. I totally disagree that Ericsson could be considered a neutral party as a foreign corporation doing business in Iraq. There is nothing neutral about doing business with a hostile foreign government. That's just not normal in any way. It's not like they had never heard of ISIS and were oblivious to all the Sharia law and violence going on in Iraq.
- causi 5y ago
  You could possibly make an argument for some groups considered terror groups for actions against governments, but ISIS throws gay people off building and puts civilians in cages before burning them alive. You must feel for the unaffiliated residents but there's no way I'd set foot there for any reason.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    Negotiate over zoom. With the video off. Using a VPN.
    - toss1 5y ago
      NO You just forking do not negotiate (except for the release of hostages, while ensuring that all other potential hostages are moved out of harm's way). If you do, you can expect nothing but a continuously escalating stream of demands. It is a fool's game - the only winning move is to not play.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        It is like nuclear power plant construction projects, that way.
        toss1 5y ago
        Yup, at least for standard-type plants, only way to win is not play. I'm hoping that newer designs designed from the start to be inherently safe, and often smaller and more modular, and/or using different elements such as Thorium, will result in designs that can win, but they do seem to have stalled a bit
- octopoc 5y ago
  Reminds of one time I was interviewing someone and I asked why he had left his previous job. He said they were building a device to block cell phone usage in prisons, and the inmates figured out who was making the hardware and slipped word out to their enforcers outside the prison with the name of the manufacturer. Soon all the employees started getting death threats. So, he quit.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    I am always shocked to learn just how porous prisons are and why nothing seems to be done about that.
    - AniseAbyss 5y ago
      After watching some documentaries about foreign prisons it often seems that the jail is run by the inmates and that the guards are just there to make sure nobody escapes.
      - vkou 5y ago
        It's not ran by the inmates, the guards just have a small source of side income if they 'bend' the rules.
        MattGaiser 5y ago
        If the inmates employ the guards, they are running it then. Why are inmates allowed currency?
        lazide 5y ago
        They usually aren’t allowed direct currency. But if they are trading and have a means to reach the outside (guards or visitors), that is rarely a major barrier. If they’re pimping, arranging ‘free visits’ for guards is one way. having a designated money guy outside who handles payments and they just need to authorize so and so to get $10k, that kind of thing, is another. And once you have guards on the payroll, the rules generally have a lot more flexibility.
- Rd6n6 5y ago
  > Some people have zero self preservation. I wouldn't go deliver something to a terrorist group for any amount of money. Is this victim blaming, or am I misreading it?
  - Supermancho 5y ago
    In some cases, a victim is to blame. There are even awards for this sort of thing.
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    Self preservation is a concept which extends beyond scenarios with a victim and a perpetrator. Don't pet feral animals. Don't run with scissors. Don't wear a fur coat in the desert. Don't drink bottles labelled "poison". So, it should reasonably follow: Don't hand yourself over to violent, hostile people.
  - 55555 5y ago
    "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt" is not quite "He shouldn't have gone unarmed and alone to a meeting with ISIS in ISIS-held territory."
    - vmception 5y ago
      relevant exhibit for anyone that is merely avoiding victim blaming because they were told not to, without addressing why victim blaming is often based in mythology: https://today.tamu.edu/2019/11/19/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit-explores-sexual-violence-myth/ https://today.tamu.edu/2019/11/19/what-were-you-wearing-exhi... so, in human interactions, its always the person that does the harmful, nonconsensual and/or illegal action that should have the focus
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    The victim is not to first to be blamed, but the result is predictable and avoidable.
  - netcan 5y ago
    Yes, but no. You need the ability to distinguish between a bad social cliche like "short skirt, asking for it" and this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- yelling_cat 5y ago
  There aren't many reasonable use cases for sending a fax these days but this is definitely one.
EE84M3i 5y ago
Could someone explain what these workers were actually doing? It sounds like they were setting up cell networks, I guess cell networks contract with Ericsson to essentially run their infrastructure for them? I was under the impression that Ericson mostly made hardware/software and sold it to companies running cell networks, but I guess I was wrong.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  Local Telco purchased a bunch of gear from Ericsson including installation, Ericsson subcontracted it to a local partner on the ground, whose staff got kidnapped. This kind of thing is quite standard in telco. I was briefly involved in one project in Iraq myself, but due to the risks involved stayed in Kuwait and VPN'd into Baghdad, where our local partner had set up and ran the data center.
- toast0 5y ago
  Cell networks are a mix of run by the company with hardware purchased (or leased, maybe) from Ericson, Huawei, etc; run by a contracting firm (IBM, etc) with hardware from whoever; run by Ericson or Huawei with probably the same company equipment, but they can probably operate the other stuff too. Some networks run part of the business and contract out other parts, etc. I worked with a fair number of international carriers at my last job and couldn't figure out the pattern of when I'd get a contact with an email at the carrier domain or at a big global consultancy (telco or general) or at hotmail/gmail. Even the large international carriers would be different on a country by country level.
- kalleboo 5y ago
  The network hardware manufacturers are pushing heavily into becoming basically "networks as a service". And many networks are happy to decide that their core competency is not actually running a mobile network but marketing or something.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Mobile telecom companies have near-zero in-house engineering capability. It's all outsourced and they're even proud of it.
causi 5y ago
The company is also believed to have bribed the terrorist group to allow it to use a fast route through ISIS territory that avoided government checkpoints. The telco used sham contracts, inflated invoices, and falsified financial statements to funnel millions to ISIS and local power brokers, with millions still unaccounted for. Oh damn. That's going beyond just trying to maintain your infrastructure for the sake of the populace.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Companies that are willing to pay terrorist groups will have no qualms about doing business with Russia, which is why all of the talk of sanctions is usually pointless. Nobody keeps to them on things that matter. If there's money to be made, companies will deal with terrorists no problem and as we've seen from past sanctions on nation-states, governments will carve out all kind of exceptions for the well connected and turn a blind eye to even more, only giving a slap on the wrist to those who get caught.
  - ct0 5y ago
    nothing has changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
  - acdha 5y ago
    This isn't a given, and your stating of it as a certainty seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those things only happen to the extent that voters let them and telling everyone that it's inevitable is exactly what keeps corruption running. Tyler Cowen refers to this as the libertarian vice: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2006/08/the_libertarian.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2006/08/th... There is an enormous range of tolerance for this and portraying it all in the most cynical light is actively harmful.
    - 5y ago
alkaloid 5y ago
We were detained in Mozambique for arriving to work on their cellular network without a pre-authorization letter from the CTO. That was quite an experience; not every nation is friendly to Western nations, turns out.
- titoCA321 5y ago
  Sometimes parts of the world expect "under the table" payments to get things moving.
  - alkaloid 5y ago
    Funny you mention that -- when our liaison came to the airport he called the CTO and hand-wrote out an authorization form . . . then paid the border security people MPesa (and cash) lol . . .
  - ricktdotorg 5y ago
    i was involved in the setup/config of new Sun servers for a Morgan Stanley office in India in the late 90s. everything was done ahead of time in the London HQ and shipped over to India. it was well-known by everyone on that project that there was a cash slush fund that our couriers and the employee who shepherded the gear over to India had to use at various levels to grease the wheels.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    FCPA actually allows facilitating payments for things like this. No one will prosecute you for it in the US. Of course, Ericsson did get FCPA sanctioned for other stuff since they paid kickbacks etc. It’s actually quite fascinating. The real victim here is the foreign state that is suffering from the corruption but US law protects them. I suppose it’s anti-trust sort of law. It retains competition for fair-playing US companies. Definitely an interesting positive-externalities US law.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    If I pay a bribe or facilitation payment to the local warlord, I, personally, break laws in my own country. This even applies if I pay a taxi driver to take me to the site, and he pays the bribe. If I'm paying a bribe for safety purposes (say giving a bottle of scotch to pass a checkpoint to get back to the hotel before night), then if I'm lucky I won't be prosecuted when I return to my home country. The great thing is I don't feel guilty about not tipping in the US. "Facilitation payments, which are payments to induce officials to perform routine functions they are otherwise obligated to perform, are bribes"
thr0wawayf00 5y ago
This is another reason I have reservations about the expansion of contract labor in the modern workforce. Far too often, it creates a conflict of interest between the contract company and contract hire. Tangentially related but much more banal, I have a relative that works in the payment processing industry, overseeing an engineering team. One of his best employees was an overseas contractor that spent many years with the company, brought his family to the states and laid down roots. After 7-8 years with the company, his contracting firm wanted him to move to another company in another state where he could earn more. He didn't want to go, but his contract stipulated that my relative's company could not hire him under any circumstance, so his firm wound down his contract to essentially force him and his family to move. This was in a smaller city without a lot of other IT jobs, so he didn't have many other options. The fact that huge corporations have that kind of power over people makes me really uncomfortable and to see a huge telecom company use contractors to negotiate with terrorists doesn't surprise me in the least.
- warent 5y ago
  Of all the reasons to be against contract labor, being kidnapped by terrorists seems like a SUPER EDGE case
  - dchftcs 5y ago
    Edge cases in ideal conditions happen at random. When there's a conflict of interest, or any other systemic problem, so-called edge cases happen more often, because the situation consistently gets pushed to the edge, so to speak. There's no shortage of workers getting pushed to take risks much bigger than any potential reward.
    - DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
      I think he's making a joke. Super Edge is a cell network/speed.
      - warent 5y ago
Saint_Genet 5y ago
Should probably have done what this swedish chemistry professor did https://www.thelocal.se/20181213/lund-professor-freed-student-from-islamic-state-warzone/ https://www.thelocal.se/20181213/lund-professor-freed-studen...
- kenjackson 5y ago
  That's a great story. But who is this university security chief? I for some reason picture Bruce Willis, who just retired from being some CIA/Navy Seals operative and just took up this job wanting to quietly live out the rest of his years at the university.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    Right, until something from his past came back to haunt him.
  - hideo 5y ago
    https://portal.research.lu.se/en/persons/per-gustafson https://portal.research.lu.se/en/persons/per-gustafson Bruce Willis wishes he looks like this dude
- moritonal 5y ago
  Every part of this is insane. The student Jumaah (an adult) returned willingly to Iraq to protect his wife and texts the professor to essentially apologise for the high likely-hood he wouldn't be able to turn in his homework (cos, you know.. beheadings). The professor chats to their Uni Security Chief who leaps to attention and hires his "go-to" mercenary force to rescue the student and his family?! They then happily give him a seemingly smallish bill for the whole job and no mention of visa problems. Wtf Sweden, is this normal?
  - sterlind 5y ago
    I want a PhD advisor like this! If they could defend me from ISIS, defending my thesis would be a cinch.
xbar 5y ago
I salute your bravery, kidnapped contractors. I would rather a bunch of Ericsson contractors get kidnapped and ransomed, and local evil terrorist goons bribed by Ericsson (a greed-driven, evil telcom), and then have local Ericsson towers installed and operating than have it all done by Huawei to the same effect.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
I don't how much Ericsson is paying but it can't possibly be enough to deal with Islamic terrorists...
- Maxburn 5y ago
  Maybe this was one of those mercenary groups? That's the nearest I can figure.
bilekas 5y ago
I worked with Ericsson as a contractor and was treated really well but I've heard of some stories in other areas and companies where they're treated like printers basically, but never before heard of cannon fodder for bribes to terrorists! This is wild
steve76 5y ago
felhr 5y ago
This is Weiland-Yutani levels of corporate evil
- glonq 5y ago
  Worse than Zorg Industries?
  - CleaveIt2Beaver 5y ago
    All the Zorg oldies but goldies.
coastflow 5y ago
The original source, published by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) that includes an interview with a kidnapped worker (and a copy of a letter requesting contractors to continue work in Mosul), is at: https://www.icij.org/investigations/ericsson-list/iraq-isis-hostage-telecom-engineer/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/ericsson-list/iraq-isis-...
3np 5y ago
It's quite telling to me that this has not been meaningfully covered or even mentioned at all in Swedish news media (at least from what I can tell). Propaganda (which I like to think of it as) works differently in different places, I guess. In Sweden it's perfectly fine to be critical of the sitting government and politicians, but information about corruption, unethical, and illegal activity in staple companies like Vattenfall (their greenwashing and coal-expansion is probably more known in Germany than Sweden), Ericsson, Volvo, Telia, Bofors, and ABB are usually just swept under the rug and more often than not most reporters aren't even aware.
- lawn 5y ago
  For a bit of contrast, I've been reading quite a bit of it. But you're right that it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves, maybe because it's been crowded away by other news, or by the unwillingness (conscious or not) to not assign so much importance to it.
- aWidebrant 5y ago
  Swedish public television has covered this story quite extensively: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/ https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/
  - 3np 5y ago
    It's peculiar how this works. I have been staying home with my folks for a couple of months (and therefore taking part of the daily TV news (OK, not 100% coverage but more often than not) as well as reading the daily local newspaper). Been glued to the radio (mostly P1, some P3) for the last week. First time I hear of this. A cursory scroll- and click from SR, DN, and SvD before my first comment yielded nothing. And yet I can now see that you are right. Good on SVT
mensetmanusman 5y ago
The thought of contract workers wearing off-color Ericsson badges parading into a building where they might end up beheaded while on a mission to install 802.11ac routers… is quite dystopian.
LightG 5y ago
What's the hazard pay on something like that!? And can that is that covered in your job contract where they say "... and any other reasonable duties!"
- vkou 5y ago
  Not enough. You'd get paid as much, if not more, to go work setting up telecom infrastructure for the US in Iraq or Afghanistan, or, well, the modern Taliban [1] (which, unlike ISIS, is not actively trying to be an at-war-with-the-world pariah state). And while you might certainly be killed or injured by a mortar attack, or an IED, or by gunfire, or a suicide bomber at the market, or any of the other ways bad things can happen to you in an active warzone, at least the people you were working for were unlikely to kidnap you. [1] U.S. Eases Sanctions to Allow Routine Transactions With Afghan Government - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/politics/us-sanctions-afghanistan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/politics/us-sanctions-...
johnwayne666 5y ago
The source of the linked article seems to be the following BBC article which I find contains more information: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60507831 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60507831 See also: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60406119 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60406119
thesaintlives 5y ago
So business as usual then?
newmac 5y ago
Ericsson announced it was going to acquire Vonage for over $6bn in late November, at the peak peak of tech stock multiples. https://www.ericsson.com/en/press-releases/2021/11/ericsson-to-acquire-vonage-for-usd-6.2-billion-to-spearhead-the-creation-of-a-global-network-and-communication-platform-for-open-innovation https://www.ericsson.com/en/press-releases/2021/11/ericsson-... You really have to wonder if that deal is going to close with this hullabaloo and the cratering of multiples in the time since.
stef25 5y ago
Lafarge, the world's biggest cement producer did something similar. They pad millions to ISIS to be allowed to keep operating in Syria https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210907-french-firm-lafarge-loses-bid-to-dismiss-crimes-against-humanity-case-in-syria https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210907-french-firm-lafa...
grammers 5y ago
The revelation comes after Ericsson was forced to admit it had paid ISIS to allow it to operate and travel through land controlled by the terrorist group. After it admitted to the crime earlier this month, shares in the company fell more than 14 percent. It's all about the money. Human rights only matter on paper.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
We live in a special era of corporate criminal impunity, this is unbelievable, immoral and outrageous. Are we going to see any haleads roll? I am not homding my breath
- bigbluedots 5y ago
  I can guarantee you that no haleads will roll.
adultSwim 5y ago
I'm reminded of "John Doe v. ExxonMobil Corporation", which alleged that Exxon directed death squads who killed and tortured Indonesians.

226 points by titoCA321 5y ago

cbg0 5y ago

> One told German public broadcaster NDR that he was sent to Mosul with a letter on behalf of Ericsson seeking permission from the terror group for them to continue working there. Some people have zero self preservation. I wouldn't go deliver something to a terrorist group for any amount of money.

princeb 5y ago
it's a company like ericsson. if this person didn't have too much an idea of the world i can imagine he'd just think negotiating with what the US calls "terrorists" is just BAU in this part of the world. i mean, i can imagine large swathes of human habitation where society is organized around deadly force. literally one country exists right at the border, where cartels manage the economy.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
If you're doing infrastructure for the old regime and you're not particularly attached to the old regime and a new regime shows up it's completely normal to send some reps to figure out if the project is to be continued and the details thereof. Obviously there are situational judgement calls that can't be captured by slinging stupid internet rules of thumb around but this is Ericson we're talking about. They're providing basic infrastructure stuff that anyone seeking to run a state needs. That's a pretty neutral thing to be involved in. It's not like they are a defense contractor who were supplying the people shooting at the new regime a week ago. And in this case it was a local contractor so that adds a potential layer of baggage.
- titoCA321 5y ago
  > The contractor was kept under house arrest, and claimed that the Ericsson manager then stopped answering his calls. "He abandoned me, he turned off the phone and disappeared." In some organizations it's also typical to throw the contractor and underlings under the bus when the project turns to sh*t.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    That was the perception of the employee. Clearly the whole thing is way out of normal, but what do you expect from the manager when they are informed that one of their employees are taken hostage? Become a trained hostage negotiator and one-man-army? Later the article says: > But the report says that one of the company's partners "made arrangements" with IS to secure his release and let the company continue its work in Mosul. So no, the person wasn't abandoned. There is a lot of questions about the manager's conduct before the kidnapping. How the heck did things end up there? But first thing I would expect from the manager after the kidnapping is to find a professional to handle the situation. And the professional very well might advice the manager to cut communications.
    - toss1 5y ago
      What do I expect from the manager? Not to become a hostage negotiator darmy, but to hand the phone and the matter off to a proper hostage negotiator and army. Not to just forking ghost the guy.
    - posterboy 5y ago
      > There is a lot of questions about the manager's conduct before the kidnapping. How the heck did things end up there? Ali's brother runs with the crew and will keep an eye out, something like that I imagine.
- JoeyBananas 5y ago
  > but this is Ericson we're talking about. They're providing basic infrastructure stuff that anyone seeking to run a state needs. That's a pretty neutral thing to be involved in. I totally disagree that Ericsson could be considered a neutral party as a foreign corporation doing business in Iraq. There is nothing neutral about doing business with a hostile foreign government. That's just not normal in any way. It's not like they had never heard of ISIS and were oblivious to all the Sharia law and violence going on in Iraq.
causi 5y ago
You could possibly make an argument for some groups considered terror groups for actions against governments, but ISIS throws gay people off building and puts civilians in cages before burning them alive. You must feel for the unaffiliated residents but there's no way I'd set foot there for any reason.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Negotiate over zoom. With the video off. Using a VPN.
  - toss1 5y ago
    NO You just forking do not negotiate (except for the release of hostages, while ensuring that all other potential hostages are moved out of harm's way). If you do, you can expect nothing but a continuously escalating stream of demands. It is a fool's game - the only winning move is to not play.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      It is like nuclear power plant construction projects, that way.
      - toss1 5y ago
        Yup, at least for standard-type plants, only way to win is not play. I'm hoping that newer designs designed from the start to be inherently safe, and often smaller and more modular, and/or using different elements such as Thorium, will result in designs that can win, but they do seem to have stalled a bit
octopoc 5y ago
Reminds of one time I was interviewing someone and I asked why he had left his previous job. He said they were building a device to block cell phone usage in prisons, and the inmates figured out who was making the hardware and slipped word out to their enforcers outside the prison with the name of the manufacturer. Soon all the employees started getting death threats. So, he quit.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I am always shocked to learn just how porous prisons are and why nothing seems to be done about that.
  - AniseAbyss 5y ago
    After watching some documentaries about foreign prisons it often seems that the jail is run by the inmates and that the guards are just there to make sure nobody escapes.
    - vkou 5y ago
      It's not ran by the inmates, the guards just have a small source of side income if they 'bend' the rules.
      - MattGaiser 5y ago
        If the inmates employ the guards, they are running it then. Why are inmates allowed currency?
        lazide 5y ago
        They usually aren’t allowed direct currency. But if they are trading and have a means to reach the outside (guards or visitors), that is rarely a major barrier. If they’re pimping, arranging ‘free visits’ for guards is one way. having a designated money guy outside who handles payments and they just need to authorize so and so to get $10k, that kind of thing, is another. And once you have guards on the payroll, the rules generally have a lot more flexibility.
Rd6n6 5y ago
> Some people have zero self preservation. I wouldn't go deliver something to a terrorist group for any amount of money. Is this victim blaming, or am I misreading it?
- Supermancho 5y ago
  In some cases, a victim is to blame. There are even awards for this sort of thing.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  Self preservation is a concept which extends beyond scenarios with a victim and a perpetrator. Don't pet feral animals. Don't run with scissors. Don't wear a fur coat in the desert. Don't drink bottles labelled "poison". So, it should reasonably follow: Don't hand yourself over to violent, hostile people.
- 55555 5y ago
  "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt" is not quite "He shouldn't have gone unarmed and alone to a meeting with ISIS in ISIS-held territory."
  - vmception 5y ago
    relevant exhibit for anyone that is merely avoiding victim blaming because they were told not to, without addressing why victim blaming is often based in mythology: https://today.tamu.edu/2019/11/19/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit-explores-sexual-violence-myth/ https://today.tamu.edu/2019/11/19/what-were-you-wearing-exhi... so, in human interactions, its always the person that does the harmful, nonconsensual and/or illegal action that should have the focus
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  The victim is not to first to be blamed, but the result is predictable and avoidable.
- netcan 5y ago
  Yes, but no. You need the ability to distinguish between a bad social cliche like "short skirt, asking for it" and this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yelling_cat 5y ago
There aren't many reasonable use cases for sending a fax these days but this is definitely one.

EE84M3i 5y ago

Could someone explain what these workers were actually doing? It sounds like they were setting up cell networks, I guess cell networks contract with Ericsson to essentially run their infrastructure for them? I was under the impression that Ericson mostly made hardware/software and sold it to companies running cell networks, but I guess I was wrong.

thematrixturtle 5y ago
Local Telco purchased a bunch of gear from Ericsson including installation, Ericsson subcontracted it to a local partner on the ground, whose staff got kidnapped. This kind of thing is quite standard in telco. I was briefly involved in one project in Iraq myself, but due to the risks involved stayed in Kuwait and VPN'd into Baghdad, where our local partner had set up and ran the data center.
toast0 5y ago
Cell networks are a mix of run by the company with hardware purchased (or leased, maybe) from Ericson, Huawei, etc; run by a contracting firm (IBM, etc) with hardware from whoever; run by Ericson or Huawei with probably the same company equipment, but they can probably operate the other stuff too. Some networks run part of the business and contract out other parts, etc. I worked with a fair number of international carriers at my last job and couldn't figure out the pattern of when I'd get a contact with an email at the carrier domain or at a big global consultancy (telco or general) or at hotmail/gmail. Even the large international carriers would be different on a country by country level.
kalleboo 5y ago
The network hardware manufacturers are pushing heavily into becoming basically "networks as a service". And many networks are happy to decide that their core competency is not actually running a mobile network but marketing or something.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Mobile telecom companies have near-zero in-house engineering capability. It's all outsourced and they're even proud of it.

causi 5y ago

The company is also believed to have bribed the terrorist group to allow it to use a fast route through ISIS territory that avoided government checkpoints. The telco used sham contracts, inflated invoices, and falsified financial statements to funnel millions to ISIS and local power brokers, with millions still unaccounted for. Oh damn. That's going beyond just trying to maintain your infrastructure for the sake of the populace.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Companies that are willing to pay terrorist groups will have no qualms about doing business with Russia, which is why all of the talk of sanctions is usually pointless. Nobody keeps to them on things that matter. If there's money to be made, companies will deal with terrorists no problem and as we've seen from past sanctions on nation-states, governments will carve out all kind of exceptions for the well connected and turn a blind eye to even more, only giving a slap on the wrist to those who get caught.
- ct0 5y ago
  nothing has changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
- acdha 5y ago
  This isn't a given, and your stating of it as a certainty seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those things only happen to the extent that voters let them and telling everyone that it's inevitable is exactly what keeps corruption running. Tyler Cowen refers to this as the libertarian vice: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2006/08/the_libertarian.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2006/08/th... There is an enormous range of tolerance for this and portraying it all in the most cynical light is actively harmful.
  - 5y ago

alkaloid 5y ago

We were detained in Mozambique for arriving to work on their cellular network without a pre-authorization letter from the CTO. That was quite an experience; not every nation is friendly to Western nations, turns out.

titoCA321 5y ago
Sometimes parts of the world expect "under the table" payments to get things moving.
- alkaloid 5y ago
  Funny you mention that -- when our liaison came to the airport he called the CTO and hand-wrote out an authorization form . . . then paid the border security people MPesa (and cash) lol . . .
- ricktdotorg 5y ago
  i was involved in the setup/config of new Sun servers for a Morgan Stanley office in India in the late 90s. everything was done ahead of time in the London HQ and shipped over to India. it was well-known by everyone on that project that there was a cash slush fund that our couriers and the employee who shepherded the gear over to India had to use at various levels to grease the wheels.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  FCPA actually allows facilitating payments for things like this. No one will prosecute you for it in the US. Of course, Ericsson did get FCPA sanctioned for other stuff since they paid kickbacks etc. It’s actually quite fascinating. The real victim here is the foreign state that is suffering from the corruption but US law protects them. I suppose it’s anti-trust sort of law. It retains competition for fair-playing US companies. Definitely an interesting positive-externalities US law.
- iso1631 5y ago
  If I pay a bribe or facilitation payment to the local warlord, I, personally, break laws in my own country. This even applies if I pay a taxi driver to take me to the site, and he pays the bribe. If I'm paying a bribe for safety purposes (say giving a bottle of scotch to pass a checkpoint to get back to the hotel before night), then if I'm lucky I won't be prosecuted when I return to my home country. The great thing is I don't feel guilty about not tipping in the US. "Facilitation payments, which are payments to induce officials to perform routine functions they are otherwise obligated to perform, are bribes"

thr0wawayf00 5y ago

This is another reason I have reservations about the expansion of contract labor in the modern workforce. Far too often, it creates a conflict of interest between the contract company and contract hire. Tangentially related but much more banal, I have a relative that works in the payment processing industry, overseeing an engineering team. One of his best employees was an overseas contractor that spent many years with the company, brought his family to the states and laid down roots. After 7-8 years with the company, his contracting firm wanted him to move to another company in another state where he could earn more. He didn't want to go, but his contract stipulated that my relative's company could not hire him under any circumstance, so his firm wound down his contract to essentially force him and his family to move. This was in a smaller city without a lot of other IT jobs, so he didn't have many other options. The fact that huge corporations have that kind of power over people makes me really uncomfortable and to see a huge telecom company use contractors to negotiate with terrorists doesn't surprise me in the least.

warent 5y ago
Of all the reasons to be against contract labor, being kidnapped by terrorists seems like a SUPER EDGE case
- dchftcs 5y ago
  Edge cases in ideal conditions happen at random. When there's a conflict of interest, or any other systemic problem, so-called edge cases happen more often, because the situation consistently gets pushed to the edge, so to speak. There's no shortage of workers getting pushed to take risks much bigger than any potential reward.
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
    I think he's making a joke. Super Edge is a cell network/speed.
    - warent 5y ago

Saint_Genet 5y ago

Should probably have done what this swedish chemistry professor did https://www.thelocal.se/20181213/lund-professor-freed-student-from-islamic-state-warzone/ https://www.thelocal.se/20181213/lund-professor-freed-studen...

kenjackson 5y ago
That's a great story. But who is this university security chief? I for some reason picture Bruce Willis, who just retired from being some CIA/Navy Seals operative and just took up this job wanting to quietly live out the rest of his years at the university.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  Right, until something from his past came back to haunt him.
- hideo 5y ago
  https://portal.research.lu.se/en/persons/per-gustafson https://portal.research.lu.se/en/persons/per-gustafson Bruce Willis wishes he looks like this dude
moritonal 5y ago
Every part of this is insane. The student Jumaah (an adult) returned willingly to Iraq to protect his wife and texts the professor to essentially apologise for the high likely-hood he wouldn't be able to turn in his homework (cos, you know.. beheadings). The professor chats to their Uni Security Chief who leaps to attention and hires his "go-to" mercenary force to rescue the student and his family?! They then happily give him a seemingly smallish bill for the whole job and no mention of visa problems. Wtf Sweden, is this normal?
- sterlind 5y ago
  I want a PhD advisor like this! If they could defend me from ISIS, defending my thesis would be a cinch.

xbar 5y ago

I salute your bravery, kidnapped contractors. I would rather a bunch of Ericsson contractors get kidnapped and ransomed, and local evil terrorist goons bribed by Ericsson (a greed-driven, evil telcom), and then have local Ericsson towers installed and operating than have it all done by Huawei to the same effect.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

I don't how much Ericsson is paying but it can't possibly be enough to deal with Islamic terrorists...

Maxburn 5y ago
Maybe this was one of those mercenary groups? That's the nearest I can figure.

bilekas 5y ago

I worked with Ericsson as a contractor and was treated really well but I've heard of some stories in other areas and companies where they're treated like printers basically, but never before heard of cannon fodder for bribes to terrorists! This is wild

steve76 5y ago

felhr 5y ago

This is Weiland-Yutani levels of corporate evil

glonq 5y ago
Worse than Zorg Industries?
- CleaveIt2Beaver 5y ago
  All the Zorg oldies but goldies.

coastflow 5y ago

The original source, published by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) that includes an interview with a kidnapped worker (and a copy of a letter requesting contractors to continue work in Mosul), is at: https://www.icij.org/investigations/ericsson-list/iraq-isis-hostage-telecom-engineer/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/ericsson-list/iraq-isis-...

3np 5y ago

It's quite telling to me that this has not been meaningfully covered or even mentioned at all in Swedish news media (at least from what I can tell). Propaganda (which I like to think of it as) works differently in different places, I guess. In Sweden it's perfectly fine to be critical of the sitting government and politicians, but information about corruption, unethical, and illegal activity in staple companies like Vattenfall (their greenwashing and coal-expansion is probably more known in Germany than Sweden), Ericsson, Volvo, Telia, Bofors, and ABB are usually just swept under the rug and more often than not most reporters aren't even aware.

lawn 5y ago
For a bit of contrast, I've been reading quite a bit of it. But you're right that it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves, maybe because it's been crowded away by other news, or by the unwillingness (conscious or not) to not assign so much importance to it.
aWidebrant 5y ago
Swedish public television has covered this story quite extensively: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/ https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/
- 3np 5y ago
  It's peculiar how this works. I have been staying home with my folks for a couple of months (and therefore taking part of the daily TV news (OK, not 100% coverage but more often than not) as well as reading the daily local newspaper). Been glued to the radio (mostly P1, some P3) for the last week. First time I hear of this. A cursory scroll- and click from SR, DN, and SvD before my first comment yielded nothing. And yet I can now see that you are right. Good on SVT

mensetmanusman 5y ago

The thought of contract workers wearing off-color Ericsson badges parading into a building where they might end up beheaded while on a mission to install 802.11ac routers… is quite dystopian.

LightG 5y ago

What's the hazard pay on something like that!? And can that is that covered in your job contract where they say "... and any other reasonable duties!"

vkou 5y ago
Not enough. You'd get paid as much, if not more, to go work setting up telecom infrastructure for the US in Iraq or Afghanistan, or, well, the modern Taliban [1] (which, unlike ISIS, is not actively trying to be an at-war-with-the-world pariah state). And while you might certainly be killed or injured by a mortar attack, or an IED, or by gunfire, or a suicide bomber at the market, or any of the other ways bad things can happen to you in an active warzone, at least the people you were working for were unlikely to kidnap you. [1] U.S. Eases Sanctions to Allow Routine Transactions With Afghan Government - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/politics/us-sanctions-afghanistan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/politics/us-sanctions-...

johnwayne666 5y ago

The source of the linked article seems to be the following BBC article which I find contains more information: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60507831 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60507831 See also: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60406119 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60406119

thesaintlives 5y ago

So business as usual then?

newmac 5y ago

Ericsson announced it was going to acquire Vonage for over $6bn in late November, at the peak peak of tech stock multiples. https://www.ericsson.com/en/press-releases/2021/11/ericsson-to-acquire-vonage-for-usd-6.2-billion-to-spearhead-the-creation-of-a-global-network-and-communication-platform-for-open-innovation https://www.ericsson.com/en/press-releases/2021/11/ericsson-... You really have to wonder if that deal is going to close with this hullabaloo and the cratering of multiples in the time since.

stef25 5y ago

Lafarge, the world's biggest cement producer did something similar. They pad millions to ISIS to be allowed to keep operating in Syria https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210907-french-firm-lafarge-loses-bid-to-dismiss-crimes-against-humanity-case-in-syria https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210907-french-firm-lafa...

grammers 5y ago

The revelation comes after Ericsson was forced to admit it had paid ISIS to allow it to operate and travel through land controlled by the terrorist group. After it admitted to the crime earlier this month, shares in the company fell more than 14 percent. It's all about the money. Human rights only matter on paper.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

We live in a special era of corporate criminal impunity, this is unbelievable, immoral and outrageous. Are we going to see any haleads roll? I am not homding my breath

bigbluedots 5y ago
I can guarantee you that no haleads will roll.

adultSwim 5y ago

I'm reminded of "John Doe v. ExxonMobil Corporation", which alleged that Exxon directed death squads who killed and tortured Indonesians.