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Ukraine Government email to ICANN (requesting shutdown of .ru root DNS servers)

• shmerl 5y ago
  Given world powers don't want to defend Ukraine directly out of fear of wider war, it's hard to blame them for doing it, though it sounds wrong as a blank kind of shutdown. Targeting government and commercial sites that fund it is more like it.
• bruhboribhe 5y ago
  More info: https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500 https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500
  • daxuak 5y ago
    The twitter post still links to the pastebin. I'm not familiar with pastebin. The account is 9 year-old, but otherwise it seems we can't verify anything about it at the moment?
• donkarma 5y ago
  only place where this should happen is China since they have a billion IPs that only connect within china anyways
• bombcar 5y ago
  This would be the end of the ICANN as every country would begin to move to doing its “own DNS” stuff.
  • javajosh 5y ago
    However ICANN responds, other countries will be thinking about how to do their own "DNS stuff".
  • bobbydreamer 5y ago
    Oh yeah. They would be already thinking about it and would have plans by now
  • qecez 5y ago
    Maybe that's a good thing?
• zelon88 5y ago
  While I think this is an interesting option to consider, wouldn't changing global DNS mostly impact users external to Russia? Would .ru still resolve inside Russia?
  • selcuka 5y ago
    If Russian ISPs continue resolving .ru domains, yes, Russian residents won't see any difference unless they have configured their routers to use a foreign nameserver (even that can be worked around as DNS is usually unencrypted UDP).
  • gruez 5y ago
    The goal seems to be cutting russia entirely off the internet
• selcuka 5y ago
  This is a bad idea as it will not only harm Russia. It will also break (possibly critical) services in other countries consuming a service hosted on a .ru domain (for example, a Yandex API). Also I'm not sure how ICANN can contribute to revoking TLS certificates.
• pabs3 5y ago
  Seems like Putin prepared for this scenario in the last year or two? There were articles about how they were testing an isolated Internet scenario.
• daxuak 5y ago
  Are we really taking pastebin as a source now? What did I miss?
• ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
  The Ukrainian govt will try anything they possibly can and all props to them. But the rest of the world needs to be very very careful how we handle such a delicate situation.
  • marius_k 5y ago
    Situation is not delicate - it is brutal.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
      This is brutal too: https://twitter.com/i/events/1498630307024711684 https://twitter.com/i/events/1498630307024711684 This is what we have done. But we conveniently forget all the casualties because we are "democratic."
• pabs3 5y ago
  The request to RIPE NCC is even more extreme, seems like that would completely cut Russia off any access to the Internet?
  • sissjdb 5y ago
    This is incorrect, RIPE is absolutely incapable of denying anyone access to the internet.
• awb 5y ago
  Is this verified?
• jacktribe 5y ago
  You have to respect Ukraine's hustle. It's the startup "fight to survive another day" playbook.
• Shank 5y ago
  > Apart from these measures, I will be sending a separate request to RIPE NCC asking to withdraw the right to use all IPv4 and IPv6 addresses by all Russian members of RIPE NCC (LIRs - Local Internet Registries), and to block the DNS root servers that it is operating. I can't help but think that this is a bit detrimental to average citizens. Am I reading this right? Wouldn't this essentially split the internet at Russia, and/or completely destroy the internet in Russia, by deallocating all IPs?
  • selcuka 5y ago
    The point of sanctions is to be detrimental to average citizens (aka voters) so that they can put pressure on Putin. This suggestion has several other issues though.
    • CryptoPunk 5y ago
      That's why sanctions are unjust.
      • jessehattabaugh 5y ago
        You'd rather we bomb them instead?
        • CryptoPunk 5y ago
          Maybe punishing the innocent with sanctions is necessary, or the lesser of two evils, but it is still an injustice. Maybe Putin thinks the injustice being visited upon the people of Ukraine is a necessary evil as well. But now we're just arguing what evils can be justified, and what cannot.
          • j16sdiz 5y ago
            Can we justify the inaction? Sometimes we just have to choose one way or the other and pray it wont go too wrong.
        • 5y ago
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• lwneal 5y ago
  From Bill Woodcock who first posted this email: "In the short-term, this is a bad plan because it would cut the Russian man-on-the-street off from international news and perspectives, leaving them with only what the Russian government chooses to tell them. That's not a great way to decrease Russian public support for the war. In the long-term, this would set the precedent that small industry associations in Los Angeles and Amsterdam would be playing arbiter in international conflicts, and messing with countries' supposedly-sovereign country-code top-level domains. And if that were to happen, a lot more countries than just China and Russia would secede from the common-consensus-Internet that allows us to all talk to each other." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Woodcock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Woodcock [2] https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500 https://twitter.com/woodyatpch/status/1498472865301098500
  • sissjdb 5y ago
    This is ridiculous. International news don’t live under .ru, nor do many of the independent medias like MEDUZA. Bill might be a smart guy, but this is a big time brain fart from him. Everybody makes mistakes.
    • inopinatus 5y ago
      Perhaps it’s because Bill has actually read the entire request, not just the summary headline, and extrapolated the multifaceted consequences, of which “can’t resolve foo.ru” is just the tip of an iceberg.
      • sissjdb 5y ago
        I too read the entire request, it’s unnecessarily rude of you to suggest otherwise. Shutting down root nameservers inside Russia would not impact Russian citizens ability to resolve domain names.
        • inopinatus 5y ago
          Yes, it will, and Bill makes it clear how and why.
• programmarchy 5y ago
  It’s starting to feel like the West is using this conflict as a proxy to implement China-like Great Firewall measures on its own populations. The “globalist” ideal that international commerce and communication would bolster peaceful relations is becoming increasingly farcical. I don’t think that I’ve ever visited a .ru domain name, so it’s not like this will affect me much personally, but sure seems like a weak and paranoid move to me.
  • ComradePhil 5y ago
    The Great Firewall is probably the best investment that China has made. This has allowed them to build native alternatives and given them leverage when negotiating with foreign companies who want to do business there. Not to mention they can shield the people against foreign propaganda. Competitors copying it is inevitable.
• CryptoPunk 5y ago
  That this is even possible shows that ICANN is not reliable enough for a global internet naming authority. I think the solution will ultimately be blockchain-based systems like ENS.
  • anthk 5y ago
    That's crap to fight climate change.
    • CryptoPunk 5y ago
      There are blockchains with low energy consumption profiles. Ethereum for its part is turning off energy-intensive PoW around July this year, to rely solely on its energy efficient PoS Beacon Chain for consensus.
      • anthk 5y ago
        OpenNIC exists you know.
• mmaunder 5y ago
  Once TTLs expire this will presumably make all RU websites and hostnames inaccessible. Please correct me if I’m wrong. The effect is ICANN deplatforming all Russian websites from the Web along with taking down SMTP/POP/IMAP servers, and much more. This is the equivalent of remotely burning all books, killing the mail system and destroying all telecommunications in another country a half century ago. It is a drastic step. If they do this, I worry about the precedent this sets and the power it confers on those able to do this.
  • compsciphd 5y ago
    making the request is probably on the same order as russian bringing the nuclear arsenal to readiness. its about the threat, "you think we don't have any bullets left in our gun? see the big bomb we just brought out". i.e. I doubt they expect it to happen as of now, they do however want the world (not just leaders, but people as well) to realize what it can do to attack russia without resorting to nukes.
• charcircuit 5y ago
  These demands are dangerous to an open internet connecting the world. If the centralized entities can't be neutral we should decentralize the power of domain ownership or IP allocation.
• langsoul-com 5y ago
  Can Russia do the same? Or can any country do the same? Who has the power here?
  • gruez 5y ago
    The west has disproportionate power here, because ICANN is by and large a western organization, despite its efforts to distance itself from the us government
  • PeterisP 5y ago
    Well, if "do the same" is requesting, then yes, everyone - including you and me - can make all kinds of requests to ICANN. But I don't this request would or should be met.
• aaron695 5y ago
• ars 5y ago
  This is a terrible idea. You might "win the battle", but you'll lose the war. Winning the war means bringing the other party closer to you, and cutting communication is the opposite of that.
• phendrenad2 5y ago
  What the hell? This would only stop countries in the west from accessing Russian websites. Russia can certainly set up it's own fallback DNS for .ru domains. And China and India aren't likely to want to be blocked from Russian domains, so they'll likely use that DNS system also. As usual, people who don't understand how DNS works are asking to wave it around like a magic wand. The internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it. Yes, even DNS itself.
  • c933103 5y ago
• webmaven 5y ago
  Whoa. This is a pretty bad idea. If the SWIFT blockade is equivalent to disconnecting Russia from the Internet, this is more like ordering banks to simply delete Russian accounts. Not freezing or closing them or even confiscating their balances, but just deleting them. There are punitive measures that aren't worth the damage they would do to global institutions and infrastructure, regardless of how much pressure they put on Russia. Forking DNS would fall into that category.
• rvz 5y ago
  Big if it is verified to be true, otherwise I'm taking this with some skepticism. > All of these measures will help users seek for reliable information in alternative domain zones, preventing propaganda and disinformation. Of course it will. It surely stopped the disinformation and propaganda happening across social media and the wider web didn't it /s Let's see how far this goes, before the Russians and anti-government cypherpunks realize that blockchain domains like ENS and Handshake (HNS) countering this exist. Can't wait for all innocent Russians to be banned from Brave, Opera browsers then. /s
• bombcar 5y ago
  Is it possible to get a copy of a root server’s info somehow without doing a recursive lookup on every TLD?
  • ck2 5y ago
    AXFR global DNS zone transfer Usually blocked at the top level root server. However there have been incidents where such servers are misconfigured and allow it.
    • sysoleg 5y ago
      AXFR work totally fine on some root servers. Try b.root-servers.net.
      • bombcar 5y ago
        That was the hint - here's the file: https://www.internic.net/domain/root.zone https://www.internic.net/domain/root.zone
  • bawolff 5y ago
    The root server only has tlds. In this case there are only 3 relavent lookups to do (.ru, .su and .рф)
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• ck2 5y ago
  Even north korea is allowed to have an active tld (kp) https://github.com/mandatoryprogrammer/NorthKoreaDNSLeak https://github.com/mandatoryprogrammer/NorthKoreaDNSLeak This seems short sighted. You want to do the things that hurt the top few percent at the top of Russia, seize the yachts, seize all the endless apartments and condos they have all around the world, NY and Florida, etc. Seize all foreign cars coming into Russia.
  • nodesocket 5y ago
    Iran (.ir) as well.
• tguvot 5y ago
  I totally get the sentiment, but it will be the worst thing that west can do right now. Russia been practicing and preparing for a while to "sovereign internet", i.e. total disconnect from rest of the internet and operating independently. If ICANN/RIPE will shut things down, it will give to Russian government excellent excuse to totally disconnect from rest of the world
  • indemnity 5y ago
    I sure will miss the balanced perspectives Russian trolls and bot farms bring.
    • tguvot 5y ago
      If you think i am russian troll, please check out my comments from past few days edit. in case i initially misunderstood what you wrote, there is still a lot of people who are west oriented a nd hate everything that happens.they are horrified by what is happening. many writing that they ashame to be russian. i have friends that go daily to protests those days. shutting down this communication will isolate them and will be disservice for everyone long term
    • iczero 5y ago
      If you really think cutting Russia off will stop the trolls, think again. North Korean cyberattacks almost never happen from North Korean address space. Nothing prevents Russia from just setting up shop somewhere else.
• hotz 5y ago
  Does no one else think all these requests from Ukraine is a bit strange... People, do your research and look into the history of Ukraine, you'll find that all of this was preventable. Watch something like Oliver Stone's Ukraine on Fire, it's a starting point to the bigger picture. Does China face the same actions over their human rights violations ie. Uyghurs, no. Does the US and its allies face the same actions over Iraq, Libya, Yemen... No. Is the CIA held liable for all the coups and regime change initiatives throughout the years... No. There's propaganda on all sides.
  • radmuzom 5y ago
    Some of us do - but our voices will be silenced by the powerful and mighty. As an Indian, my government is already being bullied for our stance.
  • rixed 5y ago
    I'd suggest to also have a look at the recent similarly anti democratic violent intervention of Russian paratroopers to secure the Kazakh oligarchs, which I'm confident most HNers don't even know happened less than 2 months ago. Have Russia held liable for the hundreds of protesters killed and thousands arrested? No. I wonder why?
• finnx 5y ago
  I don't think any competent army uses "the internet". You may think making Russian websites inaccessible will bring moral boost or justice served moment but it will certainly have a negative effect. This won't change number of casualties nor shorten any conflict in meaningful way. This and some other sanctions that punish average Russians for just being Russians will put us into polarized world again and another cold war that will take ages to repair. If average Russian can not connect to west, how can they keep their empathy towards west? If average western citizen can not connect to Russians, how can they keep their empathy towards Russians? What we are seeing here is a competition. Competition to show who cares about Ukrainians most. Seriously how does blocking country from an adult website helps the situation? Is it any different than sending likes on a social media? How many likes to stop a tank? I don't think I can blame people who participate in this competition, they want to do something. Promises we were given not kept.
  • sofixa 5y ago
    > I don't think any competent army uses "the internet" I don't think there are competent armies that don't use the Internet. It's a magical place ripe for propaganda ( e.f. check the news on the Russian vs French propaganda war on Facebook/Twitter in Central Africa). > Seriously how does blocking country from an adult website helps the situation? It informs more Russians of the real situation on the ground. That's good. Likes on social media are less useful of course, but it's still a metric. When a Russian sees millions of likes on a Zelensky heartfelt message on Twitter, maybe it gets them thinking they're really the bad guys and the whole world sees it like that. Russian soldiers are already deserting and giving up in some places, so morale is very important. > This and some other sanctions that punish average Russians for just being Russians will put us into polarized world again and another cold war that will take ages to repair. What's the alternative? Let Putin get away with it? If regular Russians don't feel the sanctions they'll never know just how terrible their regime is. And maybe, just maybe, this will push them to act.
• Animats 5y ago
  It's better to keep talking. You want to know what the opposition is saying, if nothing else. Besides, it would just end with Russia Today on ".eth".
• 1970-01-01 5y ago
  Remember the .ORG fiasco? Since ICANN still has all of the paperwork in the top drawer, why not have the fire sale for .RU instead? Russia can't make an offer as their money is worthless due to sanctions! Profiteering for the 21st century! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21611677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21611677
• glerk 5y ago
  1. This would set a dangerous precedent and undermine any trust we can have in an open and global internet. 2. As with many other "sanctions", this would affect mainly innocent civilians who have no say in the decisions of their government. 3. Taking down vital internet infrastructure in 2022 would cause a lot of damage. This would be a huge escalation of hostilities at a time when we are inching closer towards a global conflict. Where is the line between a sanction and an act of war?
• CommanderData 5y ago
  This is a terrible shortsighted idea, the average Russian will be negatively effected. Russians are just like you and me, We are talking about effectively disrupting everyday services for Russians... What if someone's trying to access critical health services, use connected medical equipment.. Theres a million reasons to not do this.
  • c933103 5y ago
  • sangupta 5y ago
    Agreed. Not every Russian wants a war, it's the mad helm at the top ruling for 20+ years who need a war for their own survival. Stopping .ru domain has direct impact on common Russian people. Instead, we need to cut off Russian propaganda sites or for that matter any site that spreads disinformation like anti-vax.
• devwastaken 5y ago
  No need to remove the domains, modify the BGP routes.
• ipaddr 5y ago
  What will happen is a Russian dns that many countries will use would be setup. This creates a grey-net where by using this dns sites with content not allowed in the west will live. The possibilities are a little exciting.
  • ComradePhil 5y ago
    The west can force their ISPs to block traffic to these DNS services... and then extend that to whatever else they want blocked. We need a blockchain DNS service which can be exported as custom list for a DNS service you run locally (afaik, pihole supports custom lists).
    • ipaddr 5y ago
      VPNs will connect.
    • HstryrsrBttn 5y ago
• nudpiedo 5y ago
  Am I the only one who sees this like a way to radicalize again a two blocks world? finally they will end up using their own monetary and banking transactions system, their own internet, etc. I wasn't always a fan of globalization, but worse than globalization would be to have two different global worlds. There has to be another way.
• w1nst0nsm1th 5y ago
  The revolution of internet as knowledge transmission platform is as important as was in the past the invention of writing or the print by Gutenberg. It accelareted our technological and scientific advancement for the mankind by an order of magnitude like the ones seen after the adoption these two previous inventions. Denying such key technological shift to a whole group of people is the equivalent of cultural, technological and intellectual genocide. The objective of the proposal to remove the .ru top domain name is nothing less than that.