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Whenever I read any history of European democracies, I always get the impression that political oppression was a lot worse in the past than it is now, despite

Whenever I read any history of European democracies, I always get the impression that political oppression was a lot worse in the past than it is now, despite how bad it may appear. I've always wondered if Europe's decline into totalitarianism was halted all on its own due to the natural "swinging of the pendulum" as they call it, or if it was due to American hegemony over the world, and the fact they basically had the whole of Europe under military occupation until the fall of the Soviet Union. Is today's rise of totalitarianism in Europe simply the swinging of the pendulum, or is it due to the waning of power in the American empire, and therefore the return of Europe to its natural, equilibrium state?

trabant00 5y ago
It's never simply a question of either or. Europe slowly migrated on its own away from autocratic regimes but USA clearly put in a large effort to enforce this in the recent period. What I would highlight is the tendency of any group to turn on itself in the absence of an external threat. And this could be the silver lining of the current events.
- progre 5y ago
  Also, in part, cause of current events. What I mean is, I think this crisis is manufactured in part to foster unity on the russian home front.
varsketiz 5y ago
What is "today's rise of totalitarianism in Europe"?
- Nursie 5y ago
  I was going to ask something similar. What I can think of is Poland and Hungary, potentially Belarus, maybe Turkey if you count that as European? (A very open question I think), and Russia itself. Poland has issues, certainly. Hungary is under sanction from other parts of the EU because of Viktor Orban. Turkey has Erdogan. Belarus has been under the thumb of Lukashenko since a few years after gaining independence, and Russia is Russia but even under Putin it's probably less totalitarian than it was under communism. Honestly I think that (with the exception of that short period in the early 90s when everything looked like it was coming up roses) Europe as a whole is far less totalitarian now than it was for most of the 20th century. Certainly the decades post-WWII where communism held sway, by force, across vast swathes of the continent. Even with its current problems, Poland is far more free now than it was behind the iron curtain. The OP posts this - "I always get the impression that political oppression was a lot worse in the past than it is now, despite how bad it may appear." which makes me think they have a very weird view and possibly not much knowledge of history. Because yes, it was far worse for far more people for a very long time.
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    > Poland is far more free now than it was behind the iron curtain. it depends on what freedom you look at. In Poland abortion has been banned, while In 1920, the Russian Soviet Republic under Lenin became the first country in the world in the modern era to allow abortion in all circumstances If you are a woman in Poland you're far less free now (not only because of the anti abortion laws). A friend of mine found out when she was pregnant that she had a risky medical condition and had to move to Czech Republic to be able to end her pregnancy. She's born and raised Polish.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      On that one axis, abortion rights, I 100% agree. In total, compared to Poland in the 1970s? I think that’s probably a discussion topic. I agree it’s not in a good place and it seems to be getting worse. As do my Polish colleagues!
  - krageon 5y ago
    > maybe Turkey if you count that as European? (A very open question I think) It's emphatically not, because they can't stop violating basic human rights.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      It’s an open questions as to whether Turkey is considered to be in Europe, is what I meant.
      - krageon 5y ago
        It's not, because as long as they don't stop they're not getting in. Nothing indicates they are stopping, so saying it's an open question is disingenuous - we'll probably have to wait for the regime to die. Perhaps after that we can see some changes.
        Nursie 5y ago
- Ourgon 5y ago
  Not that much compared to the rising totalitarianism in e.g. Canada I'd say. Neither Poland nor Hungary are exactly totalitarian, they just happen to reject the demands of a vocal minority who do not agree with their rejection of globalism in favour of a form of nationalism. Political discourse being what it is these days any such rejection, let alone any support of nationalism is directly seen as proof of totalitarianism and all those -isms and -phobias. Given that both countries seem to be functional democracies with at least as reliable an electoral system as, say, the United States of America [1] and given their recent history of occupation by totalitarian regimes I think they're doing quite well in treading their path through the intricacies of European politics. Now Trudeau in Canada, he is someone to look out for. He seems to have collected a clique of cronies around him who are al to willing to suspend civil rights when he feels his position is threatened. I all but assume the next election cycle will rinse the country clean of his ilk and restore confidence in the health of the Canadian state. [1] ...where neither party seems to accept the outcome of the elections, whether those be national (Clinton disputes 2016, Trump disputes 2020) or state (Stacey Abrams still insists on being the true governor of Georgia)
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > rising totalitarianism in e.g. Canada Wow. This is beyond ridiculous. The trucker convoy interrupted international borders and ground a major city to a halt. Emergency powers were used for a limited time to clear it. They have since been rescinded. It is my understanding that such powers specifically to do not contravene Canadian civil rights, and the act used was constructed such that Parliament maintains power and must periodically renew them, not the individual PM. The idea this counts as some sort of totalitarian escalation is bizarre and heavily partisan. The idea that the democrats contested the election in 2016 in a similar way to Trump's "big steal" narrative and actions is also nakedly fantastic.
    - Ourgon 5y ago
      The truckers caused disturbances for two weeks while Trudeau's lockdown measures caused disturbances for two years. Living in a country - Sweden - which followed a different path for a similar outcome in SARS2-related I can wholeheartedly say I would take the trucker's disturbance over Trudeau's any day. Also, blocking bank accounts of people who donated to those truckers which was not in violation of any law whatsoever? Welcome to the new world. What little trust those people had in societal institutions will have been erased now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
TMWNN 5y ago
>Whenever I read any history of European democracies, I always get the impression that political oppression was a lot worse in the past than it is now, despite how bad it may appear. I am reading Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia (<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RI9PMM/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RI9PMM/>, and was surprised to learn of the extent of the freedom of the press in late 18th-century Prussia. A British visitor wrote that people were as free to speak as back home, citing a work that was very critical of the king in the context of Poland. During the Napoleonic wars, despite the existential threat to Prussia from France, at least four newspapers that celebrated Revolutionary France as the next step in human freedom were allowed to publish. (I read that last part almost immediately after hearing of YouTube shutting down Russian state media channels. It's always preferable to counter propaganda with free speech. Even liars deserve the opportunity to speak. This is especially true when there is no formally declared war between the US and Russia.)

trabant00 5y ago

It's never simply a question of either or. Europe slowly migrated on its own away from autocratic regimes but USA clearly put in a large effort to enforce this in the recent period. What I would highlight is the tendency of any group to turn on itself in the absence of an external threat. And this could be the silver lining of the current events.

progre 5y ago
Also, in part, cause of current events. What I mean is, I think this crisis is manufactured in part to foster unity on the russian home front.

varsketiz 5y ago

What is "today's rise of totalitarianism in Europe"?

Nursie 5y ago
I was going to ask something similar. What I can think of is Poland and Hungary, potentially Belarus, maybe Turkey if you count that as European? (A very open question I think), and Russia itself. Poland has issues, certainly. Hungary is under sanction from other parts of the EU because of Viktor Orban. Turkey has Erdogan. Belarus has been under the thumb of Lukashenko since a few years after gaining independence, and Russia is Russia but even under Putin it's probably less totalitarian than it was under communism. Honestly I think that (with the exception of that short period in the early 90s when everything looked like it was coming up roses) Europe as a whole is far less totalitarian now than it was for most of the 20th century. Certainly the decades post-WWII where communism held sway, by force, across vast swathes of the continent. Even with its current problems, Poland is far more free now than it was behind the iron curtain. The OP posts this - "I always get the impression that political oppression was a lot worse in the past than it is now, despite how bad it may appear." which makes me think they have a very weird view and possibly not much knowledge of history. Because yes, it was far worse for far more people for a very long time.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > Poland is far more free now than it was behind the iron curtain. it depends on what freedom you look at. In Poland abortion has been banned, while In 1920, the Russian Soviet Republic under Lenin became the first country in the world in the modern era to allow abortion in all circumstances If you are a woman in Poland you're far less free now (not only because of the anti abortion laws). A friend of mine found out when she was pregnant that she had a risky medical condition and had to move to Czech Republic to be able to end her pregnancy. She's born and raised Polish.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    On that one axis, abortion rights, I 100% agree. In total, compared to Poland in the 1970s? I think that’s probably a discussion topic. I agree it’s not in a good place and it seems to be getting worse. As do my Polish colleagues!
- krageon 5y ago
  > maybe Turkey if you count that as European? (A very open question I think) It's emphatically not, because they can't stop violating basic human rights.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    It’s an open questions as to whether Turkey is considered to be in Europe, is what I meant.
    - krageon 5y ago
      It's not, because as long as they don't stop they're not getting in. Nothing indicates they are stopping, so saying it's an open question is disingenuous - we'll probably have to wait for the regime to die. Perhaps after that we can see some changes.
      - Nursie 5y ago
Ourgon 5y ago
Not that much compared to the rising totalitarianism in e.g. Canada I'd say. Neither Poland nor Hungary are exactly totalitarian, they just happen to reject the demands of a vocal minority who do not agree with their rejection of globalism in favour of a form of nationalism. Political discourse being what it is these days any such rejection, let alone any support of nationalism is directly seen as proof of totalitarianism and all those -isms and -phobias. Given that both countries seem to be functional democracies with at least as reliable an electoral system as, say, the United States of America [1] and given their recent history of occupation by totalitarian regimes I think they're doing quite well in treading their path through the intricacies of European politics. Now Trudeau in Canada, he is someone to look out for. He seems to have collected a clique of cronies around him who are al to willing to suspend civil rights when he feels his position is threatened. I all but assume the next election cycle will rinse the country clean of his ilk and restore confidence in the health of the Canadian state. [1] ...where neither party seems to accept the outcome of the elections, whether those be national (Clinton disputes 2016, Trump disputes 2020) or state (Stacey Abrams still insists on being the true governor of Georgia)
- Nursie 5y ago
  > rising totalitarianism in e.g. Canada Wow. This is beyond ridiculous. The trucker convoy interrupted international borders and ground a major city to a halt. Emergency powers were used for a limited time to clear it. They have since been rescinded. It is my understanding that such powers specifically to do not contravene Canadian civil rights, and the act used was constructed such that Parliament maintains power and must periodically renew them, not the individual PM. The idea this counts as some sort of totalitarian escalation is bizarre and heavily partisan. The idea that the democrats contested the election in 2016 in a similar way to Trump's "big steal" narrative and actions is also nakedly fantastic.
  - Ourgon 5y ago
    The truckers caused disturbances for two weeks while Trudeau's lockdown measures caused disturbances for two years. Living in a country - Sweden - which followed a different path for a similar outcome in SARS2-related I can wholeheartedly say I would take the trucker's disturbance over Trudeau's any day. Also, blocking bank accounts of people who donated to those truckers which was not in violation of any law whatsoever? Welcome to the new world. What little trust those people had in societal institutions will have been erased now.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

TMWNN 5y ago

>Whenever I read any history of European democracies, I always get the impression that political oppression was a lot worse in the past than it is now, despite how bad it may appear. I am reading Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia (<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RI9PMM/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RI9PMM/>, and was surprised to learn of the extent of the freedom of the press in late 18th-century Prussia. A British visitor wrote that people were as free to speak as back home, citing a work that was very critical of the king in the context of Poland. During the Napoleonic wars, despite the existential threat to Prussia from France, at least four newspapers that celebrated Revolutionary France as the next step in human freedom were allowed to publish. (I read that last part almost immediately after hearing of YouTube shutting down Russian state media channels. It's always preferable to counter propaganda with free speech. Even liars deserve the opportunity to speak. This is especially true when there is no formally declared war between the US and Russia.)