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I don't see how this isn't anything but virtue signalling, and forcing citizens to bear the cost. Being cut off from the rest of the world's financial system,

I don't see how this isn't anything but virtue signalling, and forcing citizens to bear the cost. Being cut off from the rest of the world's financial system, and with a collapsing ruble, not to mention a failing financial sector, how do you think people are going to find alternative infrastructure providers? What critical infrastructure will this take offline? What untold damage will this cause to civilians that have effectively no say against their authoritarian government? It's one thing for governments to be handing down sanctions and interrupting "business as usual", as that is their perogative and they are accountable to their citizens by way of voting. In my opinion, though, it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse. There is no accountability there.

kaibee 5y ago
> I don't see how this isn't anything but virtue signalling, and forcing citizens to bear the cost. It is the same citizens who are ultimately funding the Russian military with their taxes. I understand it isn't by individual choice, but that's the way it is and it is up to them to fix it.
- shock-value 5y ago
  Totally agree. It's amazing how many in this thread don't understand this principle.
otterley 5y ago
The accountability happens when the pressure the Russian people feel as a result of the actions their leadership has taken is greater than they can bear, and they replace their leadership in response.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  "Pressuring" civilians into standing up to armed interior police willing to use lethal force and torture, in order to effect regime change, seems of questionable morality. We change regimes in democracies by voting. They change regimes in autocracies by dying. That doesn't feel like a fair expectation.
  - otterley 5y ago
    Can you elaborate? I'm not sure how you think regime change in autocracies can happen any other way. It's not like autocrats listen to people and go, "my bad; I'll change my direction now." History suggests that only violent overthrow can effectuate that, with a few exceptions where a foreign invader was able to execute the autocrat, or where the autocrat knew they were backed into a corner and the choice was to flee or be killed. Either way, it's violent and terrible. As Clausewitz said, "war is politics by other means."
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      The vast majority of autocracies were overthrown by eroding their power bases. "The people" are not one of Putin's power bases. I.e., see financial sanctions.
  - metabagel 5y ago
    Life isn't fair. Russia invading Ukraine wasn't fair. In order to change the government of a dictatorship, someone would need to take the initiative to overthrow the government. This could be ordinary people, but the military or elites would have the best chance of pulling it off. But, there needs to be some pressure to change, or everyone will keep muddling along as things are.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
      I am not sure you could make this statement and also be consistent. For example, are you in favor to repeal the American with Disabilities Act. What about repealing Medicaid ? or to end progressive taxation ? If any of your answers is no, then you aren't being consistent, and it is likely that re-examining your position is warranted.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        ?????????????? How did you pick those particular things??? What??????? Edit: Oh, I think I get it, you're conflating "Sometimes there is no fair solution." with "Nobody should ever try to be fair." or something like that. That's a ridiculous argument, then.
jacktribe 5y ago
> it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse No one is celebrating, I assure you. The crumbling economy, all of the restrictions, their children captured abroad, all these facts amount to a serious conversation amongst Russian people that can lead to a critical mass of people going into the streets and protesting. Look at December 1989 Romania, for a textbook example of people pushed too far with nothing to lose, taking matters in their own hands. It can happen again, but not so long as the Russian people don't feel the sting. It needs to be delivered fast and hard for people to trust that the great majority is with them.
- IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
  I notice there is a lot of they in your statement. What about you ?
- necovek 5y ago
  Was Romania under any sanctions at the time? People do overthrow lousy governments. I have yet to see proof that it happens as a consequence of sanctions. Sanctions lead to people scrambling for survival, and those in power profiting further.
  - Larrikin 5y ago
    If sanctions are worthless, would you rather all the sanctioning countries militarily invade Russia and take out Putin and all the oligarchs? That was what used to happen when countries had wars with each other. Won't ordinary Russians suffer even more than having to move their domain names to a local provider? Should belligerent countries be able to invade any country they want and suffer no consequences? You seem to be advocating for no consequences and having Ukrainians constantly die in a war just so the average Russian isn't inconvenienced What is actually your alternative suggestion that you think will have real world and quick effects?
    - necovek 5y ago
      I am saying that sanctions on Russia will not affect any Ukranians dying or not. They will strictly make Russian "common people" suffer, and won't hurt their political elite either, and will likely make it stronger. A way to remove any pre-text for wars like these is to allow secession by the UN, and to specifically allow regions (regardless of any existing drawn-up province/state borders) to split out in a democratic poll, with some costs involved (eg. repaying any investments in the region as if it was a loan, possibly land-resources tax based on percentage of GDP or something, but also some guarantees like no excessive tax on imports or visas for seceding regions). Then there would be no Ukrainian claim on separatist-controlled regions in the East, and no Russian claim on the rest of the provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk that separatists control 1/3 of. Basically, all the wars in Europe since the 90s were strictly led about territories with majority population of a region not being majority population of the country (Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, now Ukraine). In the short term, it would have led to a bunch of "city-states", but like throughout history, they would re-unite and separate ad infinitum: as long as we can figure out a fair financial framework (that's less costly than war to all parties, otherwise, war will be resorted to anyway), there's nothing wrong about countries splitting up or reuniting. Of course, just removing this pre-text for the war (he's "saving" Russians who live in Eastern Ukraine) might not have stopped Putin. But without knowing what "excuse" they'd come up with, I can't argue what the best course of action would have been. The best course of action today is to recognize these realities, and work toward agreements that put this ("these parts of Ukraine are independent") into effect. That's going to be pretty hard to happen though.
metabagel 5y ago
The term "virtue signaling" is used so broadly as to be almost meaningless. One might even got to say that anytime someone uses the term "virtue signaling", it's virtue signaling. (sigh)

kaibee 5y ago

> I don't see how this isn't anything but virtue signalling, and forcing citizens to bear the cost. It is the same citizens who are ultimately funding the Russian military with their taxes. I understand it isn't by individual choice, but that's the way it is and it is up to them to fix it.

shock-value 5y ago
Totally agree. It's amazing how many in this thread don't understand this principle.

otterley 5y ago

The accountability happens when the pressure the Russian people feel as a result of the actions their leadership has taken is greater than they can bear, and they replace their leadership in response.

ethbr0 5y ago
"Pressuring" civilians into standing up to armed interior police willing to use lethal force and torture, in order to effect regime change, seems of questionable morality. We change regimes in democracies by voting. They change regimes in autocracies by dying. That doesn't feel like a fair expectation.
- otterley 5y ago
  Can you elaborate? I'm not sure how you think regime change in autocracies can happen any other way. It's not like autocrats listen to people and go, "my bad; I'll change my direction now." History suggests that only violent overthrow can effectuate that, with a few exceptions where a foreign invader was able to execute the autocrat, or where the autocrat knew they were backed into a corner and the choice was to flee or be killed. Either way, it's violent and terrible. As Clausewitz said, "war is politics by other means."
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    The vast majority of autocracies were overthrown by eroding their power bases. "The people" are not one of Putin's power bases. I.e., see financial sanctions.
- metabagel 5y ago
  Life isn't fair. Russia invading Ukraine wasn't fair. In order to change the government of a dictatorship, someone would need to take the initiative to overthrow the government. This could be ordinary people, but the military or elites would have the best chance of pulling it off. But, there needs to be some pressure to change, or everyone will keep muddling along as things are.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
    I am not sure you could make this statement and also be consistent. For example, are you in favor to repeal the American with Disabilities Act. What about repealing Medicaid ? or to end progressive taxation ? If any of your answers is no, then you aren't being consistent, and it is likely that re-examining your position is warranted.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      ?????????????? How did you pick those particular things??? What??????? Edit: Oh, I think I get it, you're conflating "Sometimes there is no fair solution." with "Nobody should ever try to be fair." or something like that. That's a ridiculous argument, then.

jacktribe 5y ago

> it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse No one is celebrating, I assure you. The crumbling economy, all of the restrictions, their children captured abroad, all these facts amount to a serious conversation amongst Russian people that can lead to a critical mass of people going into the streets and protesting. Look at December 1989 Romania, for a textbook example of people pushed too far with nothing to lose, taking matters in their own hands. It can happen again, but not so long as the Russian people don't feel the sting. It needs to be delivered fast and hard for people to trust that the great majority is with them.

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
I notice there is a lot of they in your statement. What about you ?
necovek 5y ago
Was Romania under any sanctions at the time? People do overthrow lousy governments. I have yet to see proof that it happens as a consequence of sanctions. Sanctions lead to people scrambling for survival, and those in power profiting further.
- Larrikin 5y ago
  If sanctions are worthless, would you rather all the sanctioning countries militarily invade Russia and take out Putin and all the oligarchs? That was what used to happen when countries had wars with each other. Won't ordinary Russians suffer even more than having to move their domain names to a local provider? Should belligerent countries be able to invade any country they want and suffer no consequences? You seem to be advocating for no consequences and having Ukrainians constantly die in a war just so the average Russian isn't inconvenienced What is actually your alternative suggestion that you think will have real world and quick effects?
  - necovek 5y ago
    I am saying that sanctions on Russia will not affect any Ukranians dying or not. They will strictly make Russian "common people" suffer, and won't hurt their political elite either, and will likely make it stronger. A way to remove any pre-text for wars like these is to allow secession by the UN, and to specifically allow regions (regardless of any existing drawn-up province/state borders) to split out in a democratic poll, with some costs involved (eg. repaying any investments in the region as if it was a loan, possibly land-resources tax based on percentage of GDP or something, but also some guarantees like no excessive tax on imports or visas for seceding regions). Then there would be no Ukrainian claim on separatist-controlled regions in the East, and no Russian claim on the rest of the provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk that separatists control 1/3 of. Basically, all the wars in Europe since the 90s were strictly led about territories with majority population of a region not being majority population of the country (Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, now Ukraine). In the short term, it would have led to a bunch of "city-states", but like throughout history, they would re-unite and separate ad infinitum: as long as we can figure out a fair financial framework (that's less costly than war to all parties, otherwise, war will be resorted to anyway), there's nothing wrong about countries splitting up or reuniting. Of course, just removing this pre-text for the war (he's "saving" Russians who live in Eastern Ukraine) might not have stopped Putin. But without knowing what "excuse" they'd come up with, I can't argue what the best course of action would have been. The best course of action today is to recognize these realities, and work toward agreements that put this ("these parts of Ukraine are independent") into effect. That's going to be pretty hard to happen though.

metabagel 5y ago

The term "virtue signaling" is used so broadly as to be almost meaningless. One might even got to say that anytime someone uses the term "virtue signaling", it's virtue signaling. (sigh)