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Ukrainian president signs formal request to join the European Union

80 points by 0xedb 5y ago

whatshisface 5y ago
Wouldn't this immediately put all of Europe into a state of war with Russia? (Assuming it was accepted now, before the end of the Russo-Ukrainian war) Edit: I have looked it up and there are several precedents for a country joining the EU while opting out of defense[0]. However this would be the first time the EU would be in the position of wanting to refuse mutual defense, rather than the individual country wishing to opt-out. https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-opt-outs-and-european-defence/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-op...
- brimble 5y ago
  I don't think anyone expects the EU to move forward with this until the war is over. It's more a statement of intention.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    It likely offers a big morale boost to the Ukranians doing the fighting.
    - brimble 5y ago
      Exactly. "We're still an effective government, and here's our grand plan for the future, if we all hold together and get through this."
- seanw444 5y ago
  Does the EU even have collective defense? I thought it was mostly an economic union. I thought only NATO and the UN have collective defense.
  - plsbenice34 5y ago
    The EU 1982 Treaty of Lisbon specifies that 'If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power'. This includes France as a nuclear power.
  - akmarinov 5y ago
    It does - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po... Article 42: > 7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. It's basically like Article 5 but for the EU.
anshumankmr 5y ago
But since the EU doesn't have an army of its own, what would this change? I am praying for whatever is the most peaceful approach to keep Ukraine a sovereign nation.
- Hamuko 5y ago
  It brings them closer to the EU whereas Russia wants to take them further away (seemingly to what Belarus is at the moment).
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Apparently, although there are a few exceptions, most EU countries are in a mutual defensive arrangement. Interestingly it would be possible to allow the Ukraine's accession without entering the war. Hypothetically, it could enter under the same neutrality conditions as for example Austria and avoid triggering defensive reciprocity. https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-opt-outs-and-european-defence/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-op...
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  > most peaceful approach to keep Ukraine a sovereign nation It's certainly not impossible for Putin to have a fatal heart attack tonight.
ukraineally 5y ago
EU is certainly on their side. The decision before the EU would be to actively join the war against Russia.
helge9210 5y ago
Let's (for simplicity) assume the war is not a factor. It's also safe to assume there is a necessary majority to pass all the changes to adapt Ukraine laws to be part of EU. The major time sink would be coming up with all the compromises around economical interests of various market participants within EU and in Ukraine itself.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Well, if you threaten invasion if they join, and then you invade anyway, they might as well go ahead and join... (Yeah, I know, the threat was more about NATO than the EU. Still, the logic applies.)
scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
While I agree that much must be done to aid Ukraine, something everyone should understand is that the EU isn’t just a club that you sign a few papers to join. It takes many years of reforms and organizational/legal/economic changes to reach the point of entry. This is a matter of compatibility and this is a drawn-our process. I come from Poland and the political establishment had to work for many years with much active help from EU member states to make that happen. Ukraine currently has the goal of joining the EU in the constitution and one should remember that the R invasion in 2014 and the escape of Janukovich to Russia was largely motivated by the Euro Maidan - a series of protests which were triggered when, after winning the election, Janukovich told everyone that there would be no plan to join the EU after all. Right now we shouldn’t be pushing the idea on Ukrainians that there is a possibility of fast-tracking this process. It will only make them angry when legal complexities reveal that it will take many years for it to happen.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- marius_k 5y ago
  Russia was threatening Ukraine not to join EU, and now Ukraine has nothing to loose.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  I had forgotten all about that, so to refresh everyone's memory: Euromaidan (/ˌjʊərəˌmaɪˈdɑːn, ˌjʊəroʊ-/;[74][75] Ukrainian: Євромайдан, romanized: Yevromaidan, literally 'Euro Square'[nb 6]) was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) in Kyiv. The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's decision to suspend the signing of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, and the Second Azarov Government.[79] The protests were fueled by the perception of "widespread government corruption", "abuse of power", and "violation of human rights in Ukraine".[80] Transparency International named President Yanukovych as the top example of corruption in the world.[81] The situation escalated after the violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November, leading to many more protesters joining.[5] The protests led to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, known as the Revolution of Dignity. During the Euromaidan, there were protests and clashes with police throughout Ukraine, especially at the Maidan (central square) in Kyiv, which was occupied and barricaded by protesters, along with some administrative buildings,[82] including Kyiv City State Administration. On 8 December, the crowd toppled a Lenin statue nearby. Protests and clashes increased in January, after the Ukrainian parliament passed a group of anti-protest laws. Protesters occupied government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. The protests climaxed in mid-February. Riot police advanced towards Maidan and clashed with protesters but did not fully occupy it. Police fired live and rubber ammunition at multiple locations in Kyiv. There was fierce fighting in Kyiv on 18–20 February (see List of people killed during Euromaidan). As a result of these events, the Agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych, and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition (Vitaly Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk, Oleh Tyahnybok) under the mediation of the European Union and the Russian Federation. The signing was witnessed by the Foreign Ministers of Germany and Poland, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Radosław Sikorski, respectively, and the Director of the Continental Europe Department of the French Foreign Ministry, Eric Fournier.[83] Vladimir Lukin, representing Russia, refused to sign the agreement. Shortly after the agreement was signed, Yanukovych and other high government officials fled the country.[84] Protesters gained control of the presidential administration and Yanukovych's private estate. Afterwards, the parliament removed Yanukovych from office, replaced the government with Oleksandr Turchynov, and ordered that former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko be released from prison.[85] Events in Kyiv were soon followed by the Crimean crisis and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine. Despite the ousting of Yanukovych,[86] the installation of a new government, and the adoption of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement's political provisions, the protests have sustained pressure on the government to reject Russian influence in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
pfisherman 5y ago
I do think this shows some of the inconsistency of NATO / EU policy goals wrt to Ukraine. They don’t want to admit Ukraine into NATO or the EU, but promising not to admit them is a non-starter? To be sure Russia is the clear aggressor here and their political ambitions are no more sensible. It seems to me like the clear sensible political solution here is for all sides to guarantee the security and neutrality of Ukraine (make it the Switzerland of Eurasia), and for Donetsk and Crimea to remain part of Ukraine as autonomous regions - a la Sud Tirol in Italy.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  There is no inconsistency. EU is probably welcoming of Ukraine, but obviously it cannot be in a territorial conflict when that happens. For NATO the apparent inconsistency is only apparent. It’s an important principle that Ukraine is free to apply or not apply for any membership they want. And similarly the countries within NATO are free to form alliances with whoever they want, so they are free to accept or reject an application from Ukraine. What’s the alternative? NATO accepting that Russia decides the international politics of other countries, because right now their opinions happen to align? > It seems to me like the clear sensible political solution here is for all sides to guarantee the security and neutrality of Ukraine It does seem reasonable. But how could Russia be trusted in the matter? And how could Ukraine trust the west to help them if Russia doesn’t live up to its part of the agreement? Ukraine gave up its nukes after the fall of the Soviet Union with security guarantees from the west. That didn’t work. Any “neutral demilitarized Ukraine” seems it can only work if Ukraine is in a military alliance like NATO that would guarantee its safety. The negotiations about demilitarization make sense but would have to concern only what material can be on Ukraine territory, whether NATO excercies can take place there and so on. And on that it makes sense to go very non-confrontional. Norway has self-imposed such restrictions in the area closest to Russia for example: no excercises take place there and so on.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >EU is probably welcoming of Ukraine I'm not an expert, but I believe there are economic metrics needed to even qualify, and Ukraine is far below those metrics.
nkt_m 5y ago
I'm Ukrainian. Thank you all for your support.
xiphias2 5y ago
The amount of corruption that I’ve felt when I was in Kiev is crazy: somebody stole my passport, and I had to give money to a policeman to get it back (also I had to buy another plane ticket to get back to my country). Ukraine is clearly not yet ready for a fast approval process to join the EU. At the same point it needs to join the NATO, as it’s clearly working together with it at this point.

80 points by 0xedb 5y ago

Wouldn't this immediately put all of Europe into a state of war with Russia? (Assuming it was accepted now, before the end of the Russo-Ukrainian war) Edit: I have looked it up and there are several precedents for a country joining the EU while opting out of defense[0]. However this would be the first time the EU would be in the position of wanting to refuse mutual defense, rather than the individual country wishing to opt-out. https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-opt-outs-and-european-defence/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-op...

brimble 5y ago
I don't think anyone expects the EU to move forward with this until the war is over. It's more a statement of intention.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  It likely offers a big morale boost to the Ukranians doing the fighting.
  - brimble 5y ago
    Exactly. "We're still an effective government, and here's our grand plan for the future, if we all hold together and get through this."
seanw444 5y ago
Does the EU even have collective defense? I thought it was mostly an economic union. I thought only NATO and the UN have collective defense.
- plsbenice34 5y ago
  The EU 1982 Treaty of Lisbon specifies that 'If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power'. This includes France as a nuclear power.
- akmarinov 5y ago
  It does - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Po... Article 42: > 7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. It's basically like Article 5 but for the EU.

anshumankmr 5y ago

But since the EU doesn't have an army of its own, what would this change? I am praying for whatever is the most peaceful approach to keep Ukraine a sovereign nation.

Hamuko 5y ago
It brings them closer to the EU whereas Russia wants to take them further away (seemingly to what Belarus is at the moment).
whatshisface 5y ago
Apparently, although there are a few exceptions, most EU countries are in a mutual defensive arrangement. Interestingly it would be possible to allow the Ukraine's accession without entering the war. Hypothetically, it could enter under the same neutrality conditions as for example Austria and avoid triggering defensive reciprocity. https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-opt-outs-and-european-defence/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-op...
rmbyrro 5y ago
> most peaceful approach to keep Ukraine a sovereign nation It's certainly not impossible for Putin to have a fatal heart attack tonight.

ukraineally 5y ago

EU is certainly on their side. The decision before the EU would be to actively join the war against Russia.

helge9210 5y ago

Let's (for simplicity) assume the war is not a factor. It's also safe to assume there is a necessary majority to pass all the changes to adapt Ukraine laws to be part of EU. The major time sink would be coming up with all the compromises around economical interests of various market participants within EU and in Ukraine itself.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

Well, if you threaten invasion if they join, and then you invade anyway, they might as well go ahead and join... (Yeah, I know, the threat was more about NATO than the EU. Still, the logic applies.)

scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago

While I agree that much must be done to aid Ukraine, something everyone should understand is that the EU isn’t just a club that you sign a few papers to join. It takes many years of reforms and organizational/legal/economic changes to reach the point of entry. This is a matter of compatibility and this is a drawn-our process. I come from Poland and the political establishment had to work for many years with much active help from EU member states to make that happen. Ukraine currently has the goal of joining the EU in the constitution and one should remember that the R invasion in 2014 and the escape of Janukovich to Russia was largely motivated by the Euro Maidan - a series of protests which were triggered when, after winning the election, Janukovich told everyone that there would be no plan to join the EU after all. Right now we shouldn’t be pushing the idea on Ukrainians that there is a possibility of fast-tracking this process. It will only make them angry when legal complexities reveal that it will take many years for it to happen.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
marius_k 5y ago
Russia was threatening Ukraine not to join EU, and now Ukraine has nothing to loose.
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
I had forgotten all about that, so to refresh everyone's memory: Euromaidan (/ˌjʊərəˌmaɪˈdɑːn, ˌjʊəroʊ-/;[74][75] Ukrainian: Євромайдан, romanized: Yevromaidan, literally 'Euro Square'[nb 6]) was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) in Kyiv. The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's decision to suspend the signing of the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, and the Second Azarov Government.[79] The protests were fueled by the perception of "widespread government corruption", "abuse of power", and "violation of human rights in Ukraine".[80] Transparency International named President Yanukovych as the top example of corruption in the world.[81] The situation escalated after the violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November, leading to many more protesters joining.[5] The protests led to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, known as the Revolution of Dignity. During the Euromaidan, there were protests and clashes with police throughout Ukraine, especially at the Maidan (central square) in Kyiv, which was occupied and barricaded by protesters, along with some administrative buildings,[82] including Kyiv City State Administration. On 8 December, the crowd toppled a Lenin statue nearby. Protests and clashes increased in January, after the Ukrainian parliament passed a group of anti-protest laws. Protesters occupied government buildings in many regions of Ukraine. The protests climaxed in mid-February. Riot police advanced towards Maidan and clashed with protesters but did not fully occupy it. Police fired live and rubber ammunition at multiple locations in Kyiv. There was fierce fighting in Kyiv on 18–20 February (see List of people killed during Euromaidan). As a result of these events, the Agreement on settlement of political crisis in Ukraine was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych, and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition (Vitaly Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk, Oleh Tyahnybok) under the mediation of the European Union and the Russian Federation. The signing was witnessed by the Foreign Ministers of Germany and Poland, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Radosław Sikorski, respectively, and the Director of the Continental Europe Department of the French Foreign Ministry, Eric Fournier.[83] Vladimir Lukin, representing Russia, refused to sign the agreement. Shortly after the agreement was signed, Yanukovych and other high government officials fled the country.[84] Protesters gained control of the presidential administration and Yanukovych's private estate. Afterwards, the parliament removed Yanukovych from office, replaced the government with Oleksandr Turchynov, and ordered that former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko be released from prison.[85] Events in Kyiv were soon followed by the Crimean crisis and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine. Despite the ousting of Yanukovych,[86] the installation of a new government, and the adoption of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement's political provisions, the protests have sustained pressure on the government to reject Russian influence in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

pfisherman 5y ago

I do think this shows some of the inconsistency of NATO / EU policy goals wrt to Ukraine. They don’t want to admit Ukraine into NATO or the EU, but promising not to admit them is a non-starter? To be sure Russia is the clear aggressor here and their political ambitions are no more sensible. It seems to me like the clear sensible political solution here is for all sides to guarantee the security and neutrality of Ukraine (make it the Switzerland of Eurasia), and for Donetsk and Crimea to remain part of Ukraine as autonomous regions - a la Sud Tirol in Italy.

alkonaut 5y ago
There is no inconsistency. EU is probably welcoming of Ukraine, but obviously it cannot be in a territorial conflict when that happens. For NATO the apparent inconsistency is only apparent. It’s an important principle that Ukraine is free to apply or not apply for any membership they want. And similarly the countries within NATO are free to form alliances with whoever they want, so they are free to accept or reject an application from Ukraine. What’s the alternative? NATO accepting that Russia decides the international politics of other countries, because right now their opinions happen to align? > It seems to me like the clear sensible political solution here is for all sides to guarantee the security and neutrality of Ukraine It does seem reasonable. But how could Russia be trusted in the matter? And how could Ukraine trust the west to help them if Russia doesn’t live up to its part of the agreement? Ukraine gave up its nukes after the fall of the Soviet Union with security guarantees from the west. That didn’t work. Any “neutral demilitarized Ukraine” seems it can only work if Ukraine is in a military alliance like NATO that would guarantee its safety. The negotiations about demilitarization make sense but would have to concern only what material can be on Ukraine territory, whether NATO excercies can take place there and so on. And on that it makes sense to go very non-confrontional. Norway has self-imposed such restrictions in the area closest to Russia for example: no excercises take place there and so on.
- yucky 5y ago
  >EU is probably welcoming of Ukraine I'm not an expert, but I believe there are economic metrics needed to even qualify, and Ukraine is far below those metrics.

nkt_m 5y ago

I'm Ukrainian. Thank you all for your support.

xiphias2 5y ago

The amount of corruption that I’ve felt when I was in Kiev is crazy: somebody stole my passport, and I had to give money to a policeman to get it back (also I had to buy another plane ticket to get back to my country). Ukraine is clearly not yet ready for a fast approval process to join the EU. At the same point it needs to join the NATO, as it’s clearly working together with it at this point.