5 ms·

One positive side effect: this result, in the context of an ongoing land war in Europe will finally help to rattle us Europeans out of our traditional resistanc

One positive side effect: this result, in the context of an ongoing land war in Europe will finally help to rattle us Europeans out of our traditional resistance to defense and military investment. (I'm both British and German.) Stronger Europe -> stronger NATO -> more options for the Alliance, and for the US to prevent conflict in and out of Europe, since Europeans will shoulder more of the local deterrence burden. Consider also the R&D spinoffs which typically result from military investment. These are dark times -- but longer term, imagine how much civilian technological advancement we can get out of this. This in turn can relieve so many other social and political problems in the West.

hef19898 5y ago
Can be a net positive, if we also start to really stand by our principles of democracy and equality. The EU and NATO have a less then stelar track record on those for quite a while. And the European disdain for military and defense spending only started after the end of the cold war when huge standing armies weren't needed anymore.
- hdivider 5y ago
  "Can be a net positive, if we also start to really stand by our principles of democracy and equality. The EU and NATO have a less then stelar track record on those for quite a while." Absolutely. Our values are the engine of this entire thing. I'd say thanks to our insanely wired world, with the daily metric ton of stories coming out of Ukraine, people are realizing how precious Western values are, what they actually mean, and how necessary it is to defend them. We haven't thought in these terms for quite a while, in the context of superpower aggression. "And the European disdain for military and defense spending only started after the end of the cold war when huge standing armies weren't needed anymore." Yep -- we all hoped and worked towards a more advanced world. We didn't quite get it. But with the Kremlin intentions and ruthlessness made clear, for all to see, we now can make a wiser attempt. The aggregate political will that existed in Europe just 1 week ago, will now take a very different shape. That's despite Brexit, the pandemic, and the memory of our many past misdeeds. Great to see Western unity. That's what's holding the world together right now.
anticodon 5y ago
One negative (and intended) side-effect: USA as usual will reap all benefits from this war. Probably it is the reason why it pumped so much weapons into Ukraine and refused to discuss security questions with Russia prior to February 24. Sanctions announced by EU will immensely weaken EU economy and enrich USA by forcing EU to buy more expensive US oil and gas. Also, US sanctions are laughable compared to EU. E.g. EU cannot sell Airbus produced in Europe to Russia. USA can sell their Boeings. US jets fly over Russia, EU - cannot. Etc, etc. All in all, this looks like an attempt to plunder the biggest economy after they teared USSR apart.
dncornholio 5y ago
Resistance to defence and military investment should be intrinsic, it should always met with resistance. We don't need war for R&D.. We don't need war period.
- hdivider 5y ago
  Agreed -- some resistance, because military investment can easily break out of proportion. Right now though, I believe for the most part, European investment is not sufficient. Considering the NATO target for countries to spend 2% of GDP on defense.
yummypaint 5y ago
Technology that can get Europe off of natural gas would be tremendously helpful, and we already needed to be working on that yesterday because of climate change. Perhaps this war will provide a psychological incentive to do what needs to be done. This research could be carried out anywhere and there would be no need to classify it unlike military R&D so it can immediately be put into practice. My hope in the US is that there will be motivation to direct some of our bloated military budget to renewables research. The long term impacts of dismantling Russia's leverage over europe through alternative energy sources will be larger than merely inventing a better gun.
pinephoneguy 5y ago
From what I've seen the British haven't hesitated to spend money on defense. The Germans were told not to buy the British to try and crush the Prussian military tradition and prevent future land wars, a powerful Russia being one of the consequences.
raxxorrax 5y ago
> finally help to rattle us Europeans out of our traditional resistance to defense and military investment. What a great development... Such ventures also invite competitors.

hef19898 5y ago

Can be a net positive, if we also start to really stand by our principles of democracy and equality. The EU and NATO have a less then stelar track record on those for quite a while. And the European disdain for military and defense spending only started after the end of the cold war when huge standing armies weren't needed anymore.

hdivider 5y ago
"Can be a net positive, if we also start to really stand by our principles of democracy and equality. The EU and NATO have a less then stelar track record on those for quite a while." Absolutely. Our values are the engine of this entire thing. I'd say thanks to our insanely wired world, with the daily metric ton of stories coming out of Ukraine, people are realizing how precious Western values are, what they actually mean, and how necessary it is to defend them. We haven't thought in these terms for quite a while, in the context of superpower aggression. "And the European disdain for military and defense spending only started after the end of the cold war when huge standing armies weren't needed anymore." Yep -- we all hoped and worked towards a more advanced world. We didn't quite get it. But with the Kremlin intentions and ruthlessness made clear, for all to see, we now can make a wiser attempt. The aggregate political will that existed in Europe just 1 week ago, will now take a very different shape. That's despite Brexit, the pandemic, and the memory of our many past misdeeds. Great to see Western unity. That's what's holding the world together right now.

anticodon 5y ago

One negative (and intended) side-effect: USA as usual will reap all benefits from this war. Probably it is the reason why it pumped so much weapons into Ukraine and refused to discuss security questions with Russia prior to February 24. Sanctions announced by EU will immensely weaken EU economy and enrich USA by forcing EU to buy more expensive US oil and gas. Also, US sanctions are laughable compared to EU. E.g. EU cannot sell Airbus produced in Europe to Russia. USA can sell their Boeings. US jets fly over Russia, EU - cannot. Etc, etc. All in all, this looks like an attempt to plunder the biggest economy after they teared USSR apart.

dncornholio 5y ago

Resistance to defence and military investment should be intrinsic, it should always met with resistance. We don't need war for R&D.. We don't need war period.

hdivider 5y ago
Agreed -- some resistance, because military investment can easily break out of proportion. Right now though, I believe for the most part, European investment is not sufficient. Considering the NATO target for countries to spend 2% of GDP on defense.

yummypaint 5y ago

Technology that can get Europe off of natural gas would be tremendously helpful, and we already needed to be working on that yesterday because of climate change. Perhaps this war will provide a psychological incentive to do what needs to be done. This research could be carried out anywhere and there would be no need to classify it unlike military R&D so it can immediately be put into practice. My hope in the US is that there will be motivation to direct some of our bloated military budget to renewables research. The long term impacts of dismantling Russia's leverage over europe through alternative energy sources will be larger than merely inventing a better gun.

pinephoneguy 5y ago

From what I've seen the British haven't hesitated to spend money on defense. The Germans were told not to buy the British to try and crush the Prussian military tradition and prevent future land wars, a powerful Russia being one of the consequences.

raxxorrax 5y ago

> finally help to rattle us Europeans out of our traditional resistance to defense and military investment. What a great development... Such ventures also invite competitors.