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When Trump was crying about the cozy Russia-Germany relationship[1] and talking about how NATO was not contributing its share, the fact checkers were busy conce

by sinyug 5y ago

When Trump was crying about the cozy Russia-Germany relationship[1] and talking about how NATO was not contributing its share, the fact checkers were busy concentrating on his tone rather than the substance of what he said.[2] They must be very pleased today that they were able to do that then. > President Trump told NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg during a meeting in 2018 that the Western alliance, particularly Germany, is "totally controlled" by Russia through oil and gas deals. > "We're supposed to protect you against Russia but they're paying billions of dollars to Russia?" Trump asked. "I think that's very inappropriate." > "And the former Chancellor of Germany is the head of the pipeline company that is supplying the gas. Ultimately, Germany will have almost 70% of their country controlled by Russia with natural gas. So you tell me, is that appropriate? I've been complaining about this from the time I got in." > Trump called on Germany to "step it up" on their contribution to NATO immediately, "not 10 years from now." > "Germany as far as I am concerned is captive to Russia ... we're supposed to protect Germany while they are getting their energy from Russia, explain that," Trump asked the NATO Secretary-General. > Trump called it "very unfair" to the United States and its taxpayers. [1] FLASHBACK: President Trump Told NATO In 2018 That Germany Is A "Captive Of Russia" As Long As They're Buying Putin's Oil And Gas (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/02/25/flashback_2018_president_trump_told_nato_secretary_europe_is_a_captive_of_russia_as_long_as_theyre_buying_russian_oil_and_gas.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/02/25/flashback...) [2] FactChecking Trump’s NATO Remarks (https://www.factcheck.org/2019/12/factchecking-trumps-nato-remarks/ https://www.factcheck.org/2019/12/factchecking-trumps-nato-r...)

yrgulation 5y ago
This. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Most europeans are aware of germany’s involuntary aid for russia but cant do much since germany dominates eu politics. There is a near conspiracy theory amount of decisions that Merkel took and played right into putin’s favour. Also worth noting the german ceo of north stream is a former stasi officer, the east german communist secret police - a russian tool. These are many of the reasons why i am against a european army. It will likely be dominated by germany, and regardless of how much germans will try and pr their country’s image, germany has made colossal mistakes.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  The reason I don't want a European army is that I don't really see Germany def ending a couple of countries that hate it. Germany demilitarized after WW2 and decided to use diplomacy and economic integration to ensure peace, instead of war. And they tried to play nice with Russia, after they killed 27 million Russians in WW2. Now everyone is acting like Putin going mad is Germany's fault. Now everybody wants Germany to be a military power again. The last two times they were, the world burned. And yes, the German approach to reign in Russia failed. But so did the US approach of treating Russia as an enemy forever.
  - yrgulation 5y ago
    I am curious - what countries hate germany? And what country wouldnt want to defend germany in case of an attack? Edit: i dont think projecting this back on the us is the right approach. The us showed its not ready to appease a country that sponsored dictators, assassinated journalists and enslaved its own citizens. I see a few germans here and there feeling guilt for what germany did to russia, but what about what germany did to east europe? It invaded those countries making them weaker for russia to take. East europe forgave german war reparation debts and now germany is barely doing anything. Where it the guilt for that?
    - orbifold 5y ago
      During Cold War France considered using tactical nuclear warheads to make Germany impassible to a Russian advance, that was one reason they refused to put their nukes under NATO control (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-france-once-pointed-its-nuclear-weapons-germany-164028 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-fran...)
    - thg 5y ago
      Poland comes to mind.. Don't know about the population, but their current government really does not like us. Although they're geographically between Russia and us, so there's that.
croes 5y ago
Sure, Trumps statements had nothing to do with selling US weapons and LPG. Didn't see Trump cutting the US oil imports from russia.
- ejb999 5y ago
  He didn't need to - the US became energy independent in 2019 and 2020 and became a net exporter, not importer, for the first time in decades.
  - croes 5y ago
    That's even worse, they don't need to buy but still do it https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIM_NUS-NRS_1&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M... Germany and the EU don't have much of choice especially after Trump killed the Iran deal.
ysleepy 5y ago
The dependence is true, but I feel like this was accepted by most with the hope that economic integration of russia would avoid war in europe. Losing so much business would be a deterrent. I and many other, probably mistakenly, believed this would keep putin in check. You have to remember that for the US russia is far away, but for us it's a neighbor and our history is bound together for centuries. East germany was part of the soviet union for decades. We live, lived, in the longest stretch of peace on the european continent and maybe it was NATO and a common enemy but it was also because of diplomancy, compromise and economic integration. The US is also importing $25bn of crude oil from russia while telling germany to cut down on gas imports from a reliable parter at that point. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIM_NUS-NRS_1&f=A https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M... Putin is a whacko, damn.
- sinyug 5y ago
  > accepted by most with the hope that economic integration of russia would avoid war in europe Why? Not everything in the world is for sale, particularly what one perceives to be their national security and interest. Former Pakistani President and Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto once famously said: "If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry, but we will get one of our own."[1] > for the US russia is far away, but for us it's a neighbor Technically, only 50 miles separate the US and Russia from each other across the Bering Strait. But, yes, I can see how distances might be perceived in the European context. > the longest stretch of peace In geopolitics, permanent peace is not possible. At some point in time, someone will do something to break it. And every generation has to be ready for it. > The US is also importing $25bn of crude oil from russia while telling germany to cut down on gas imports from a reliable parter at that point. The US can be self-reliant very quickly if it wants to. I don't know if the same can be said for Germany. [1] How Pakistan Developed Its Own Nuclear Triad (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/how-pakistan-developed-its-own-nuclear-triad-196943 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/how-pakistan-develo...)
Melio 5y ago
It's a different philosophy. German is trying to be diplomatic and logical about it and not a military bully like the USA. All your trump stuff doesn't matter, we are not the USA. We do not want to be proud Germans having dead relatives dying in useless wars. Putin's attack on kiev is not just a bad day because of the death but also because the hopes of having proper diplomatic talks with Putin failed. It's still a good thing that we tried.
- bluecalm 5y ago
  That's too naive. How can you try be logical and diplomatic when you know you're building dependent relationship with a dictator who already had several wars under his belt. I mean, it was opportunistic, cheap gas is nice and Germany is far away from Russian border, some countries are closer but you know, you can always build a pipeline or two around those. Not your problem afterall. I just can't believe anyone could eat the diplomatic and logical narrative up.
  - Melio 5y ago
    There is nothing to 'eat up'. Germany is not stupid.
toraway1234 5y ago
NicoJuicy 5y ago
Merkel always had the stance that trade could improve relations in the long run. With Merkel now gone, Germany is more open to put up a more resistant position - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/world/europe/germany-russia-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/world/europe/germany-russ... . The odds are very high ( and definitely how it is now), that the rest of Europe will follow.

by sinyug 5y ago

yrgulation 5y ago

This. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Most europeans are aware of germany’s involuntary aid for russia but cant do much since germany dominates eu politics. There is a near conspiracy theory amount of decisions that Merkel took and played right into putin’s favour. Also worth noting the german ceo of north stream is a former stasi officer, the east german communist secret police - a russian tool. These are many of the reasons why i am against a european army. It will likely be dominated by germany, and regardless of how much germans will try and pr their country’s image, germany has made colossal mistakes.

turbinerneiter 5y ago
The reason I don't want a European army is that I don't really see Germany def ending a couple of countries that hate it. Germany demilitarized after WW2 and decided to use diplomacy and economic integration to ensure peace, instead of war. And they tried to play nice with Russia, after they killed 27 million Russians in WW2. Now everyone is acting like Putin going mad is Germany's fault. Now everybody wants Germany to be a military power again. The last two times they were, the world burned. And yes, the German approach to reign in Russia failed. But so did the US approach of treating Russia as an enemy forever.
- yrgulation 5y ago
  I am curious - what countries hate germany? And what country wouldnt want to defend germany in case of an attack? Edit: i dont think projecting this back on the us is the right approach. The us showed its not ready to appease a country that sponsored dictators, assassinated journalists and enslaved its own citizens. I see a few germans here and there feeling guilt for what germany did to russia, but what about what germany did to east europe? It invaded those countries making them weaker for russia to take. East europe forgave german war reparation debts and now germany is barely doing anything. Where it the guilt for that?
  - orbifold 5y ago
    During Cold War France considered using tactical nuclear warheads to make Germany impassible to a Russian advance, that was one reason they refused to put their nukes under NATO control (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-france-once-pointed-its-nuclear-weapons-germany-164028 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-fran...)
  - thg 5y ago
    Poland comes to mind.. Don't know about the population, but their current government really does not like us. Although they're geographically between Russia and us, so there's that.

croes 5y ago

Sure, Trumps statements had nothing to do with selling US weapons and LPG. Didn't see Trump cutting the US oil imports from russia.

ejb999 5y ago
He didn't need to - the US became energy independent in 2019 and 2020 and became a net exporter, not importer, for the first time in decades.
- croes 5y ago
  That's even worse, they don't need to buy but still do it https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIM_NUS-NRS_1&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M... Germany and the EU don't have much of choice especially after Trump killed the Iran deal.

ysleepy 5y ago

The dependence is true, but I feel like this was accepted by most with the hope that economic integration of russia would avoid war in europe. Losing so much business would be a deterrent. I and many other, probably mistakenly, believed this would keep putin in check. You have to remember that for the US russia is far away, but for us it's a neighbor and our history is bound together for centuries. East germany was part of the soviet union for decades. We live, lived, in the longest stretch of peace on the european continent and maybe it was NATO and a common enemy but it was also because of diplomancy, compromise and economic integration. The US is also importing $25bn of crude oil from russia while telling germany to cut down on gas imports from a reliable parter at that point. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MTTIM_NUS-NRS_1&f=A https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M... Putin is a whacko, damn.

sinyug 5y ago
> accepted by most with the hope that economic integration of russia would avoid war in europe Why? Not everything in the world is for sale, particularly what one perceives to be their national security and interest. Former Pakistani President and Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto once famously said: "If India builds the bomb, we will eat grass or leaves, even go hungry, but we will get one of our own."[1] > for the US russia is far away, but for us it's a neighbor Technically, only 50 miles separate the US and Russia from each other across the Bering Strait. But, yes, I can see how distances might be perceived in the European context. > the longest stretch of peace In geopolitics, permanent peace is not possible. At some point in time, someone will do something to break it. And every generation has to be ready for it. > The US is also importing $25bn of crude oil from russia while telling germany to cut down on gas imports from a reliable parter at that point. The US can be self-reliant very quickly if it wants to. I don't know if the same can be said for Germany. [1] How Pakistan Developed Its Own Nuclear Triad (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/how-pakistan-developed-its-own-nuclear-triad-196943 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/how-pakistan-develo...)

Melio 5y ago

It's a different philosophy. German is trying to be diplomatic and logical about it and not a military bully like the USA. All your trump stuff doesn't matter, we are not the USA. We do not want to be proud Germans having dead relatives dying in useless wars. Putin's attack on kiev is not just a bad day because of the death but also because the hopes of having proper diplomatic talks with Putin failed. It's still a good thing that we tried.

bluecalm 5y ago
That's too naive. How can you try be logical and diplomatic when you know you're building dependent relationship with a dictator who already had several wars under his belt. I mean, it was opportunistic, cheap gas is nice and Germany is far away from Russian border, some countries are closer but you know, you can always build a pipeline or two around those. Not your problem afterall. I just can't believe anyone could eat the diplomatic and logical narrative up.
- Melio 5y ago
  There is nothing to 'eat up'. Germany is not stupid.

toraway1234 5y ago

NicoJuicy 5y ago

Merkel always had the stance that trade could improve relations in the long run. With Merkel now gone, Germany is more open to put up a more resistant position - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/world/europe/germany-russia-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/world/europe/germany-russ... . The odds are very high ( and definitely how it is now), that the rest of Europe will follow.