8 ms·

Interesting how fast people lose all compassion and sympathy, and really humanity, towards a whole population which itself might be against what it's leaders ar

Interesting how fast people lose all compassion and sympathy, and really humanity, towards a whole population which itself might be against what it's leaders are doing ... Also: I have yet to see such suggestions directed at the US or Israeli population for the many, well-known war crimes their leaders have committed and still are.

nickpp 5y ago
No one wants any harm to the Russian people, but they too must do something to stop their madman. I know it is much more dangerous for them than for us keyboard pundits, but it is their responsibility. Think how much more dangerous it is for Ukrainians.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  How about China?
  - yuppie_scum 5y ago
    “Whataboutism” is not helpful. Focus on the problem at hand.
    - gspetr 5y ago
      The presented "solution" isn't one at all, see Iran.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      China is the problem at hand, among many. Examining arguments for logical consistency and reasoning is very helpful to find flaws in them.
- wetpaws 5y ago
  Russia is a huge totalitarian prison and nobody can do much without being arrested or murdered.
  - astonex 5y ago
    Just like Ukranians are being murdered.
    - EugeneOZ 5y ago
      For their opinion?
      - astonex 5y ago
        For even less, for just being Ukranian.
        EugeneOZ 5y ago
        Any proofs? Please send me a link to an article where some Ukrainians were killed by their own government forces (that’s an important point) for being Ukrainian. Or for some protest actions. From my side, I can easily send you hundreds of links to prove that you can be jailed just for clicking the “like” button in Russia.
        astonex 5y ago
        That's not what I mean. I mean Russians are murdering Ukranians right now. So the least Russians opposed to it could do is protest even under threat of arrest. Protests already are happening in Russian cities so it is possible.
        wetpaws 5y ago
        You are not following Belarus or Russia close enough to know that protests are going on non stop for pretty much a decade for little to no avail. Your view is understandable (I used to be likewise naive), but it does not have much connection to reality.
  - throwaway290 5y ago
    While enacting a substantial change does not appear possible you can protest and people do, at least in larger cities streets become full with people holding banners. (Photo galleries were posted on HN and FWIW I have supporting information from someone who is directly there.) Protesters are selectively detained, but there is no mass murder or vanishing of people unlike what I imagine would happen in China (or Hong Kong now) so not sure if 'totalitarian prison' is entirely descriptive. Blocking is a trade-off. Take Google access as another instance. On one hand, it lets sane people not be limited to just state propaganda by watching live the destruction their government is enacting, as well as communicate to the outside world that they do not support it by protesting and sharing photos of protests. OTOH, it lets bots mass-report YT livestream watchers, causing automated ban waves. If we block access, we address the latter, but also eliminate the former.
- EugeneOZ 5y ago
  Yeah, and see how you want to help them to fight against Putin - you block their access to GitHub to make them lose their jobs. Without the money - do you think they will go fight on the streets? No, they will look for other ways to feed their families. If they are isolated, they will have no other choice than start working on government. By action like this, you are just turning into enemies those who want to be on your side.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    I totally sympathize and agree it doesn't sound fair but you will see more and more embargos and boycotts directed at Russia and Russians the more this Ukrainian murderous invasion continues...
    - EugeneOZ 5y ago
      I do not think you “sympathize”, I’m reading through your lines that you are quite enjoying it. I’m not in Russia, it will not affect me, so don't be so excited. But such hostile nationalistic behavior will be remembered, and not only by me. You have all the reasons to hate Putin - I hate him too. But if you are saying (literally or not) that you just hate Russians - feelings will quickly become mutual.
      - nickpp 5y ago
        You are reading wrong: I am in Eastern Europe and I have Russians ancestry so hating Russians would mean hating myself. I can't do much really and I am just wondering here how we can solve this mess...
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    So when are economic sanctions appropriate? Never? Because economic sanctions are meant to hurt people so much that regime instability becomes a story.
astonex 5y ago
- willcipriano 5y ago
  That still doesn't explain why we are free from santions in the US. Why aren't we expected to overthrow our warmongering leaders? WMD turned out to be just as credible as Putin's Nazis.
  - astonex 5y ago
    [flagged]
  - SirHound 5y ago
    And the people who started those wars aren’t in charge any more.
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      Congress declares and funds wars, it's been incredibly stable in the past few decades. Most people who have left have retired due to old age and somehow as inexplicable multi-millionaires. The vice president for 8 years of drone bombings is the president now.
  - yuppie_scum 5y ago
    [flagged]
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    You are! But you (still) have elections to do it in. Are there any politicians in particular from the WMD era you think should be ousted?
    - gspetr 5y ago
      Mainstream media figures are buddy-buddy with G.W. Bush, so what are you talking about? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ellen-degeneres-defends-george-w-bush-friendship-cowboys-game-tweets-monologue-2019-10-08/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ellen-degeneres-defends-george-...
watwut 5y ago
In the scale of damage, this is harming random Russians less then economic response or military response. This is same level of boycott as soccer, skiing or eurovision boycotts of Russia. Unfortunately, there is no way how to harm Putin and his friends only. Wars are like that.
Aeolun 5y ago
I imagine if the whole world was using a Russian VCS site, and silicon valley was a region of moscow these same discussions would take place in reverse. Cutting off the US for their invasion of Iraq would have seemed pretty reasonable. But maybe not so much, since that country was provably ruled by a dictator, so people wouldn’t feel the same about the attack as about one made on a liberal democracy.
- nickpp 5y ago
  "Imagine if the good guys were bad and the bad guys good." But they aren't. And you know why? Because you can't have creativity and innovations without freedom. You can't have money and success without a population where the best and most successful are allowed to create and keep a large part of the value they build. This is why dictatorships never build Silicon Valleys while their best and brightest quietly emigrate to work and create in freedom.
  - gggggh 5y ago
    - nickpp 5y ago
      Yeah, I know it's trendy and useful to muddy the waters convince people we're all the same but we aren't really: some of us invade and kill their neighbors when they show signs of becoming "too independent".
      - gggggh 5y ago
        The US have done much worse over the years.
        nickpp 5y ago
        Everybody has done much worse over the years. But today, right now, it's Russia invading and killing their neighbors.
ginko 5y ago
>Also: I have yet to see such suggestions directed at the US or Israeli population Then you can't have looked very hard because there's a plethora of boycott movements against Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sancti... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel_in_sports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel_in_sports There's even a Github example: https://web.archive.org/web/20200923222519/https://github.com/armancodes/laravel-download-link/pull/9 https://web.archive.org/web/20200923222519/https://github.co...
- willcipriano 5y ago
  On the other hand: "Twenty-six states have adopted laws that punish companies that choose to boycott Israel." https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/9/18172826/bds-law-israel-boycott-states-explained https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/9/18172826/bd...
- jdthedisciple 5y ago
  BDS is literally a movement by Palestinians directed at their war-enemy next door. That would be like Ukrainians boycotting Russians now. You get the point ...
  - ginko 5y ago
    I don't get your point, actually. Of course the US or Israel won't boycott themselves.
    - jdthedisciple 5y ago
      Sure, but let me give you an example of what I mean: "The consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law." [0] Yet, have you seen any western govt demand sanctions on the Israeli population for that? Have you seen this guy here demand github be banned for all Israelis? Of course not - and that's just the moral double standards I'm calling out. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israel...
pg_1234 5y ago
Interesting how fast you lost all compassion and sympathy for the innocent civilians getting killed by Russia in the Ukraine ... assuming you ever had any.
alkonaut 5y ago
[flagged]

nickpp 5y ago

No one wants any harm to the Russian people, but they too must do something to stop their madman. I know it is much more dangerous for them than for us keyboard pundits, but it is their responsibility. Think how much more dangerous it is for Ukrainians.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
How about China?
- yuppie_scum 5y ago
  “Whataboutism” is not helpful. Focus on the problem at hand.
  - gspetr 5y ago
    The presented "solution" isn't one at all, see Iran.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    China is the problem at hand, among many. Examining arguments for logical consistency and reasoning is very helpful to find flaws in them.
wetpaws 5y ago
Russia is a huge totalitarian prison and nobody can do much without being arrested or murdered.
- astonex 5y ago
  Just like Ukranians are being murdered.
  - EugeneOZ 5y ago
    For their opinion?
    - astonex 5y ago
      For even less, for just being Ukranian.
      - EugeneOZ 5y ago
        Any proofs? Please send me a link to an article where some Ukrainians were killed by their own government forces (that’s an important point) for being Ukrainian. Or for some protest actions. From my side, I can easily send you hundreds of links to prove that you can be jailed just for clicking the “like” button in Russia.
        astonex 5y ago
        That's not what I mean. I mean Russians are murdering Ukranians right now. So the least Russians opposed to it could do is protest even under threat of arrest. Protests already are happening in Russian cities so it is possible.
        wetpaws 5y ago
        You are not following Belarus or Russia close enough to know that protests are going on non stop for pretty much a decade for little to no avail. Your view is understandable (I used to be likewise naive), but it does not have much connection to reality.
- throwaway290 5y ago
  While enacting a substantial change does not appear possible you can protest and people do, at least in larger cities streets become full with people holding banners. (Photo galleries were posted on HN and FWIW I have supporting information from someone who is directly there.) Protesters are selectively detained, but there is no mass murder or vanishing of people unlike what I imagine would happen in China (or Hong Kong now) so not sure if 'totalitarian prison' is entirely descriptive. Blocking is a trade-off. Take Google access as another instance. On one hand, it lets sane people not be limited to just state propaganda by watching live the destruction their government is enacting, as well as communicate to the outside world that they do not support it by protesting and sharing photos of protests. OTOH, it lets bots mass-report YT livestream watchers, causing automated ban waves. If we block access, we address the latter, but also eliminate the former.
EugeneOZ 5y ago
Yeah, and see how you want to help them to fight against Putin - you block their access to GitHub to make them lose their jobs. Without the money - do you think they will go fight on the streets? No, they will look for other ways to feed their families. If they are isolated, they will have no other choice than start working on government. By action like this, you are just turning into enemies those who want to be on your side.
- nickpp 5y ago
  I totally sympathize and agree it doesn't sound fair but you will see more and more embargos and boycotts directed at Russia and Russians the more this Ukrainian murderous invasion continues...
  - EugeneOZ 5y ago
    I do not think you “sympathize”, I’m reading through your lines that you are quite enjoying it. I’m not in Russia, it will not affect me, so don't be so excited. But such hostile nationalistic behavior will be remembered, and not only by me. You have all the reasons to hate Putin - I hate him too. But if you are saying (literally or not) that you just hate Russians - feelings will quickly become mutual.
    - nickpp 5y ago
      You are reading wrong: I am in Eastern Europe and I have Russians ancestry so hating Russians would mean hating myself. I can't do much really and I am just wondering here how we can solve this mess...
- threatofrain 5y ago
  So when are economic sanctions appropriate? Never? Because economic sanctions are meant to hurt people so much that regime instability becomes a story.

astonex 5y ago

willcipriano 5y ago
That still doesn't explain why we are free from santions in the US. Why aren't we expected to overthrow our warmongering leaders? WMD turned out to be just as credible as Putin's Nazis.
- astonex 5y ago
  [flagged]
- SirHound 5y ago
  And the people who started those wars aren’t in charge any more.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    Congress declares and funds wars, it's been incredibly stable in the past few decades. Most people who have left have retired due to old age and somehow as inexplicable multi-millionaires. The vice president for 8 years of drone bombings is the president now.
- yuppie_scum 5y ago
  [flagged]
- alkonaut 5y ago
  You are! But you (still) have elections to do it in. Are there any politicians in particular from the WMD era you think should be ousted?
  - gspetr 5y ago
    Mainstream media figures are buddy-buddy with G.W. Bush, so what are you talking about? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ellen-degeneres-defends-george-w-bush-friendship-cowboys-game-tweets-monologue-2019-10-08/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ellen-degeneres-defends-george-...

watwut 5y ago

In the scale of damage, this is harming random Russians less then economic response or military response. This is same level of boycott as soccer, skiing or eurovision boycotts of Russia. Unfortunately, there is no way how to harm Putin and his friends only. Wars are like that.

Aeolun 5y ago

I imagine if the whole world was using a Russian VCS site, and silicon valley was a region of moscow these same discussions would take place in reverse. Cutting off the US for their invasion of Iraq would have seemed pretty reasonable. But maybe not so much, since that country was provably ruled by a dictator, so people wouldn’t feel the same about the attack as about one made on a liberal democracy.

nickpp 5y ago
"Imagine if the good guys were bad and the bad guys good." But they aren't. And you know why? Because you can't have creativity and innovations without freedom. You can't have money and success without a population where the best and most successful are allowed to create and keep a large part of the value they build. This is why dictatorships never build Silicon Valleys while their best and brightest quietly emigrate to work and create in freedom.
- gggggh 5y ago
  - nickpp 5y ago
    Yeah, I know it's trendy and useful to muddy the waters convince people we're all the same but we aren't really: some of us invade and kill their neighbors when they show signs of becoming "too independent".
    - gggggh 5y ago
      The US have done much worse over the years.
      - nickpp 5y ago
        Everybody has done much worse over the years. But today, right now, it's Russia invading and killing their neighbors.

ginko 5y ago

>Also: I have yet to see such suggestions directed at the US or Israeli population Then you can't have looked very hard because there's a plethora of boycott movements against Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sancti... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel_in_sports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel_in_sports There's even a Github example: https://web.archive.org/web/20200923222519/https://github.com/armancodes/laravel-download-link/pull/9 https://web.archive.org/web/20200923222519/https://github.co...

willcipriano 5y ago
On the other hand: "Twenty-six states have adopted laws that punish companies that choose to boycott Israel." https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/9/18172826/bds-law-israel-boycott-states-explained https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/9/18172826/bd...
jdthedisciple 5y ago
BDS is literally a movement by Palestinians directed at their war-enemy next door. That would be like Ukrainians boycotting Russians now. You get the point ...
- ginko 5y ago
  I don't get your point, actually. Of course the US or Israel won't boycott themselves.
  - jdthedisciple 5y ago
    Sure, but let me give you an example of what I mean: "The consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law." [0] Yet, have you seen any western govt demand sanctions on the Israeli population for that? Have you seen this guy here demand github be banned for all Israelis? Of course not - and that's just the moral double standards I'm calling out. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israel...

pg_1234 5y ago

Interesting how fast you lost all compassion and sympathy for the innocent civilians getting killed by Russia in the Ukraine ... assuming you ever had any.

alkonaut 5y ago

[flagged]