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The Brain vs the Mind

26 points by bennesvig 15y ago

disgruntledphd2 15y ago
Its funny that a hundred years ago, this article would have been the mind versus the body. Apart from highlighting a particularly interesting form of dualism (with which I have some sympathy), this article shows how much neuro-science has altered our perceptions of ourselves.
AndrewDucker 15y ago
The problems a lot of people have with self-control stem from the way they deal with the split. If you think of the brain as something to be controlled then you will run out of energy very quickly. You can't hold it in place. If you think of it as an animal to be trained, then you can slowly alter its behaviour until it does what you want.
schiptsov 15y ago
Oversimplification, but a good one. There is also emotions - some "analog" or "chemical" waves that affects both the brain and the mind and it is constantly amplifying or diminishing each other in countless and endless feedback loops and chain reactions doing in massive parallel way. ^_^
zoba 15y ago
What is talking about are called more technically called second order desires. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_volition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_volition) From his example he "wants cheese cake" but he "wants to want to focus on his work" and instead he is "wanting cheesecake". Wikipedia gives the good example of the drug addict who "wants drugs" but he "wants to not want drugs". Its very close to the ideas of self control and willpower. Second order desires are important in artificial intelligence as most AI only has 1st order desires (e.g. 'make a plan of actions to accomplish something'). Second order desires can be used as a controller for 1st order AI processes, and are therefore very powerful (think about a real time system that can know when it has spent too much time planning, and needs to use whatever its current best plan is).
- ramy_d 15y ago
  I found your post much more informative than the original article. His work vs cheesecake seems to be an issue of discipline vs temptation, and to be honest, something we all face with various amounts of success (especially considering how popular home-grown projects are in this community)
- altrego99 15y ago
  > think about a real time system that can know when it has spent too much time planning, and needs to use whatever its current best plan is That's why iteratively deepened depth first search kicks ass in board game AIs (specifically chess).
overgard 15y ago
I think as far as models of the brain goes, this one is somewhat useful and popular, but basically wrong. This book outlines a model that I think is a lot more accurate (as reviewed on Less Wrong): http://lesswrong.com/lw/6yh/consistently_inconsistent/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/6yh/consistently_inconsistent/

26 points by bennesvig 15y ago

Its funny that a hundred years ago, this article would have been the mind versus the body. Apart from highlighting a particularly interesting form of dualism (with which I have some sympathy), this article shows how much neuro-science has altered our perceptions of ourselves.

AndrewDucker 15y ago

The problems a lot of people have with self-control stem from the way they deal with the split. If you think of the brain as something to be controlled then you will run out of energy very quickly. You can't hold it in place. If you think of it as an animal to be trained, then you can slowly alter its behaviour until it does what you want.

schiptsov 15y ago

Oversimplification, but a good one. There is also emotions - some "analog" or "chemical" waves that affects both the brain and the mind and it is constantly amplifying or diminishing each other in countless and endless feedback loops and chain reactions doing in massive parallel way. ^_^

zoba 15y ago

What is talking about are called more technically called second order desires. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_volition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_volition) From his example he "wants cheese cake" but he "wants to want to focus on his work" and instead he is "wanting cheesecake". Wikipedia gives the good example of the drug addict who "wants drugs" but he "wants to not want drugs". Its very close to the ideas of self control and willpower. Second order desires are important in artificial intelligence as most AI only has 1st order desires (e.g. 'make a plan of actions to accomplish something'). Second order desires can be used as a controller for 1st order AI processes, and are therefore very powerful (think about a real time system that can know when it has spent too much time planning, and needs to use whatever its current best plan is).

ramy_d 15y ago
I found your post much more informative than the original article. His work vs cheesecake seems to be an issue of discipline vs temptation, and to be honest, something we all face with various amounts of success (especially considering how popular home-grown projects are in this community)
altrego99 15y ago
> think about a real time system that can know when it has spent too much time planning, and needs to use whatever its current best plan is That's why iteratively deepened depth first search kicks ass in board game AIs (specifically chess).

overgard 15y ago

I think as far as models of the brain goes, this one is somewhat useful and popular, but basically wrong. This book outlines a model that I think is a lot more accurate (as reviewed on Less Wrong): http://lesswrong.com/lw/6yh/consistently_inconsistent/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/6yh/consistently_inconsistent/