5 ms·

Seems sensible. Private companies shouldn't be funding wars, particularly wars overseas from where they are based. The Ukrainian's need help but this should be

Seems sensible. Private companies shouldn't be funding wars, particularly wars overseas from where they are based. The Ukrainian's need help but this should be coming from government's, not private citizens through a private foreign company. I feel like this shouldn't be controversial at all.

jacquesm 5y ago
> The Ukrainian's need help but this should be coming from government's, not private citizens through a private foreign company. If you set yourself up as a payment gateway people will use you as a payment gateway. And what private citizens do with their money is up to them.
- croes 5y ago
  And what private companies allow is up to them.
- rswail 5y ago
  Patreon is not a "payment gateway", it's a mechanism for people to support creative activities, as the original term "patron of the arts" means. Funding military weapons steps on some very complicated lines about what people are allowed to spend their money on. So saying "what private citizens do with their money is up to them." is only true as far as the law says.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Sure, but Patreon was just fine with this until two weeks ago. They should either work on their acceptance criteria or admit that they are in fact a money transmitter. They very selectively enforce this and that is why it makes them look bad because right now is the worst possible time to close this account.
- basisword 5y ago
  > If you set yourself up as a payment gateway people will use you as a payment gateway. They're not a payment gateway for everything and anything. They can choose what activity they don't want to facilitate and they have. > And what private citizens do with their money is up to them. It's not. There are numerous restrictions on what private citizens can do with their money.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > There are numerous restrictions on what private citizens can do with their money. Yes, but those restrictions are not typically arbitrated by commercial entities but by the law.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  That might be a norm that the world _should_ have but it’s not one that actually exists currently. We demand that payment gateways prevent fraud, prevent the sale of criminal or objectionable materials, prevent money laundering and prevent sending money to nations and individuals under sanction. Having a policy of not supporting weapons purchases is on that spectrum. Just claiming people can do what they want with their money just isn’t true.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I'm perfectly capable of transferring funds to Ukranian bank accounts from where I'm sitting, my bank doesn't get a say in that. If I were to try to send money to ISIS or some other known terrorist organization they would surely step in under AMT laws, but the Ukranian defense force is last I checked not on that list (Though I'm sure Putin would love that.) https://www.dnb.nl/en/sector-information/supervision-laws-and-regulations/laws-and-eu-regulations/anti-money-laundering-and-anti-terrorist-financing-act/ https://www.dnb.nl/en/sector-information/supervision-laws-an... So effectively Patreon is carrying Putin's water here.
    - kasey_junk 5y ago
      Your bank absolutely gets a say in that. They can refuse to transfer those funds for effectively any reason and will if they think that those funds are being transferred for any number of proscribed actions. Those actions need not be official sanctions either. They can refuse to do business with another bank at their discretion. I agree that it’s a very bad look for Patreon but it’s pretty business as usual.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        > Your bank absolutely gets a say in that. They can refuse to transfer those funds for effectively any reason and will if they think that those funds are being transferred for any number of proscribed actions. I think I covered that by linking to the charter that governs this. > Those actions need not be official sanctions either. They can refuse to do business with another bank at their discretion. They'd have to have a pretty good reason or I would have an excellent opportunity to sue. Capricious interference with the flow of capital is frowned upon. > I agree that it’s a very bad look for Patreon but it’s pretty business as usual. Patreon effectively joined Putin. There is no way they will whitewash this.
aaa_aaa 5y ago
IMO exact opposite is the more sensible. Governments are terrible at representing people who put them to their position, let alone the rest who completely disagree with them.
syshum 5y ago
I think it should be controversial, and I do not think people should just proclaim "let the government handle it", that is very dangerous idea and one that is getting us in to more and more problems The people are the government, when we loose sight of that we have problems. Clearly the governments around the world are unwilling to help
- basisword 5y ago
  Then go out and protest your government to make the decision you believe is right.
  - syshum 5y ago
    I would but then i would be labeled an "insurrectionist" and possibly have my ability to transact in the every day life removed... the US, Canada, and most of the "West" is trying very hard to make Liberty and freedom protest illegal, you can only protest some topics, and some actions by government and only with the approval of government that your protesting is OK
    - moron4hire 5y ago
      I feel like if you don't literally break into the seat of government, smash stuff, kill a cop, or take a literal shit on the floor you'll be just fine.
      - syshum 5y ago
        What if you are let in by police (police actually holding the doors open as is seen on multiple camera's), walk through the building peacefully and unrelated to that a police office has a medical event that sadly costs him his life... Because that was the experience for 90%+ of people... the less then 10% should be prosecuted, that actually committed property crimes. Then you have Canada... which was a 100% peaceful protest.
  - sgjohnson 5y ago
    Yeah... And if they don't, just vote them out. In 3 or 4 or whatever years. In this case there's no time for that.
belter 5y ago
Is this the same Patreon? https://www.patreon.com/GunWebsites https://www.patreon.com/GunWebsites
ejb999 5y ago
You mean like for the 8 years when the same page was up, and Patreon never had a problem with it? SO they were OK with it, until they suddenly decided when Russia ramped up the invasion - got it patreon, small invasions no problem big invasions, pull the rug.
- epicide 5y ago
  Is it possible that it's more about the amount of money rather than just timing? I imagine that the page recently started receiving way more money than it ever has. I'm aware that the timing still looks bad and won't change some people's view of the move. I'm not asking for that. Just asking for at least an ounce of nuance.
shaolinspirit 5y ago
when you are starving and finally get a loaf of bread but still die from hunger because you don't have knife to cut it. because somewhere it is written that you SHOULD cut bread with knife. how pedantic

jacquesm 5y ago

> The Ukrainian's need help but this should be coming from government's, not private citizens through a private foreign company. If you set yourself up as a payment gateway people will use you as a payment gateway. And what private citizens do with their money is up to them.

croes 5y ago
And what private companies allow is up to them.
rswail 5y ago
Patreon is not a "payment gateway", it's a mechanism for people to support creative activities, as the original term "patron of the arts" means. Funding military weapons steps on some very complicated lines about what people are allowed to spend their money on. So saying "what private citizens do with their money is up to them." is only true as far as the law says.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Sure, but Patreon was just fine with this until two weeks ago. They should either work on their acceptance criteria or admit that they are in fact a money transmitter. They very selectively enforce this and that is why it makes them look bad because right now is the worst possible time to close this account.
basisword 5y ago
> If you set yourself up as a payment gateway people will use you as a payment gateway. They're not a payment gateway for everything and anything. They can choose what activity they don't want to facilitate and they have. > And what private citizens do with their money is up to them. It's not. There are numerous restrictions on what private citizens can do with their money.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > There are numerous restrictions on what private citizens can do with their money. Yes, but those restrictions are not typically arbitrated by commercial entities but by the law.
kasey_junk 5y ago
That might be a norm that the world _should_ have but it’s not one that actually exists currently. We demand that payment gateways prevent fraud, prevent the sale of criminal or objectionable materials, prevent money laundering and prevent sending money to nations and individuals under sanction. Having a policy of not supporting weapons purchases is on that spectrum. Just claiming people can do what they want with their money just isn’t true.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I'm perfectly capable of transferring funds to Ukranian bank accounts from where I'm sitting, my bank doesn't get a say in that. If I were to try to send money to ISIS or some other known terrorist organization they would surely step in under AMT laws, but the Ukranian defense force is last I checked not on that list (Though I'm sure Putin would love that.) https://www.dnb.nl/en/sector-information/supervision-laws-and-regulations/laws-and-eu-regulations/anti-money-laundering-and-anti-terrorist-financing-act/ https://www.dnb.nl/en/sector-information/supervision-laws-an... So effectively Patreon is carrying Putin's water here.
  - kasey_junk 5y ago
    Your bank absolutely gets a say in that. They can refuse to transfer those funds for effectively any reason and will if they think that those funds are being transferred for any number of proscribed actions. Those actions need not be official sanctions either. They can refuse to do business with another bank at their discretion. I agree that it’s a very bad look for Patreon but it’s pretty business as usual.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > Your bank absolutely gets a say in that. They can refuse to transfer those funds for effectively any reason and will if they think that those funds are being transferred for any number of proscribed actions. I think I covered that by linking to the charter that governs this. > Those actions need not be official sanctions either. They can refuse to do business with another bank at their discretion. They'd have to have a pretty good reason or I would have an excellent opportunity to sue. Capricious interference with the flow of capital is frowned upon. > I agree that it’s a very bad look for Patreon but it’s pretty business as usual. Patreon effectively joined Putin. There is no way they will whitewash this.

aaa_aaa 5y ago

IMO exact opposite is the more sensible. Governments are terrible at representing people who put them to their position, let alone the rest who completely disagree with them.

syshum 5y ago

I think it should be controversial, and I do not think people should just proclaim "let the government handle it", that is very dangerous idea and one that is getting us in to more and more problems The people are the government, when we loose sight of that we have problems. Clearly the governments around the world are unwilling to help

basisword 5y ago
Then go out and protest your government to make the decision you believe is right.
- syshum 5y ago
  I would but then i would be labeled an "insurrectionist" and possibly have my ability to transact in the every day life removed... the US, Canada, and most of the "West" is trying very hard to make Liberty and freedom protest illegal, you can only protest some topics, and some actions by government and only with the approval of government that your protesting is OK
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    I feel like if you don't literally break into the seat of government, smash stuff, kill a cop, or take a literal shit on the floor you'll be just fine.
    - syshum 5y ago
      What if you are let in by police (police actually holding the doors open as is seen on multiple camera's), walk through the building peacefully and unrelated to that a police office has a medical event that sadly costs him his life... Because that was the experience for 90%+ of people... the less then 10% should be prosecuted, that actually committed property crimes. Then you have Canada... which was a 100% peaceful protest.
- sgjohnson 5y ago
  Yeah... And if they don't, just vote them out. In 3 or 4 or whatever years. In this case there's no time for that.

belter 5y ago

Is this the same Patreon? https://www.patreon.com/GunWebsites https://www.patreon.com/GunWebsites

ejb999 5y ago

You mean like for the 8 years when the same page was up, and Patreon never had a problem with it? SO they were OK with it, until they suddenly decided when Russia ramped up the invasion - got it patreon, small invasions no problem big invasions, pull the rug.

epicide 5y ago
Is it possible that it's more about the amount of money rather than just timing? I imagine that the page recently started receiving way more money than it ever has. I'm aware that the timing still looks bad and won't change some people's view of the move. I'm not asking for that. Just asking for at least an ounce of nuance.

shaolinspirit 5y ago

when you are starving and finally get a loaf of bread but still die from hunger because you don't have knife to cut it. because somewhere it is written that you SHOULD cut bread with knife. how pedantic