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You are probably downvoted for - voluntarily or involuntarily (I cannot judge) - running the errands of the enemies of the free world by suggesting that it is h

You are probably downvoted for - voluntarily or involuntarily (I cannot judge) - running the errands of the enemies of the free world by suggesting that it is hopeless while it is absolutely not. (Why is it not hopeless? Russian forces suffer large losses and their morale is breaking, after all, what sane person wants to shoot their peaceful neigbours and relatives? Russians are already taking to the streets to protest the madness one day into this stupid war, who would have expected such bravery from the already suffering Russian people? Half of the European population is already looking for anything they can do to support Ukraine, ordinary Russians raising up or to make Putin and his closest people suffer. Pro Russian trolls who were previously tolerated since we wanted to hear all sides are now kept down. The list probably goes on.) Every free human is now at war, and for now, for us it is information warfare. So lets make sure the madmen get nothing for free. Don't run their errands.

Loic 5y ago
The most important part in what you wrote: > no sane person wants to shoot their peaceful neighbors and relatives and this is the case for all Russians even most of the ones in the army in Ukraine, right now. People do not want war. Period. For a human being to go to war, he/she needs to be heavily indoctrinated to the point of partially losing is normal references. Even today, with heavily indoctrinated armies, only a small subset of the forces are effectively shooting bullets. War is decided by crazy leaders (and I am polite) far away from the lines.
- reitanqild 5y ago
  Luckily this also favours the defending side somewhat I hope: From listening to people who grew up with the veterans here in Norway I've learned that: - Germans were told they came here to protect us against the British so they would - in the beginning of the war - shoot to suppress, not to kill. I guess Russian soldiers coming into Ukraine has been tricked to believe the "peace keeping" nonsense too and had a rude awakening. - Norwegians however were already mad and shot to kill. I guess this holds true for Ukrainians too. This is natural and we've seen it in Afghanistan, Iraq etc too I think. - German soldiers would cryingly admit to POWs already at the start of the war that they were absolutely not voluntarily there, they'd just be shot if they refused.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >German soldiers would cryingly admit to POWs already at the start of the war that they were absolutely not voluntarily there, they'd just be shot if they refused No shit they weren't there voluntarily, no sane people want to go to their death, but those were the rules for mandatory conscription for them back then. Even today some European countries still have mandatory conscription, and while they won't shoot you for refusal, if you don't show up for conscription, military police will come to your house and arrest you, and if you run away, an arrest warrant will be issues on your name. So yeah, you have to do your mandatory service, even if you don't want to.
    - amcoastal 5y ago
      I'd sit in a jail cell before I got drafted into an unjust war. Doesn't seem like a hard decision to me. Now if you're repelling aggressive invaders, that's a different story.
      - reitanqild 5y ago
        FWIW going abroad has so far always been voluntary for drafted soldiers in most (all?) NATO countries as long as article 5 is not invoked. I shyed away from education / officer training because I felt the risk of being sent on peace keeping to the middle east, but 20 years later I see I could safely have done it.
        amcoastal 5y ago
        I'm in the US, we remember vietnam.
    - vidarh 5y ago
      Ironically given the comment you replied to, Norway is one of them. I had military police trying to reach me the last few weeks before I moved to the UK to try to hand deliver a conscription notice as a necessary step before charging me if I again failed to show up (I'd ignored several prior notices). I didn't leave because of that, but I did delight I telling them I was beyond their reach. Finally picked up the phone the very day I left. My dad and uncle both served 3-4 months in prison for refusing as a matter of principle, and my intent was to do so too until we decided to move our startup at the time to London. Of course the main reason for that conscription was the Soviet Union/Russia. It's gotten very lenient since I left in 2000, as the size of the Norwegian military has been scaled back to the point they only need a small portion of potential recruits.
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MarcellusDrum 5y ago
The phrase "the free world" rubs me the wrong way. I'm obviously against what Russia is doing, any sane man would be. But as a middle eastern, the US to us has been 10x worse than Russia: They killed a million Iraqis, they killed Syrian civilians by bombing hospitals and schools. They overthrew a functional government in Libya, and they supported Syrian/Iraqi separatists (Kurds). They forcefully tried to build a military base in Lebanon. Not only that, but they also tortured, raped, and humiliated innocent Iraqis in Abou Gharib, without any major repercussions. Just because the US did it, doesn't mean that Russia is justified or less wrong, both are wrong, and neither get to call out the other for humanitarian reasons.
- randomsearch 5y ago
  If you think the US has been worse for the Syrians than Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of its cities, I cannot take the rest of your argument seriously.
  - MarcellusDrum 5y ago
    The US overall has been worse to the Middle East overall than Russia is my argument. You knew that, of course, but you chose the vaguest claim in my argument, and ignored the rest which are also valid just to make yourself feel better. Which is fine, of course.
    - reitanqild 5y ago
      Reading this for a second time and sticking to what I said about being ashamed for many of the things the west did I'd also like to remind that Russia hasn't really done much at all in the middle East. But I can remember stories from my childhood about Russians tying up Afghan fighters and driving over them with tanks to make an example, so again without defending drone strikes on weddings or Abu Ghraib or anything other spectacularly bad I 1.) think it wouldn't have been much better if it was the Russians who went in 2.) think the reason why the Russian government hasn't been involved in more badness in the middle east until recently has not been its peaceful nature but the fact that they have been cash strapped.
tonguez 5y ago
"what sane person wants to shoot their peaceful neigbours and relatives?" Apparently ethnic Russians were being killed in Ukraine (or they have been the last 8 years, but more serious shelling started on February 17, 2022) and that is why Russia invaded.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Apparently At least according to Putler's propaganda. > ethnic Russians were being killed in Ukraine Far, far more ethnic Russians were not being killed in Ukraine. Sure, some of the instigators, perpetrators, and fellow travellers of the armed insurrection in East Ukraine are (or were) ethnic Russians, but they: A) Are being killed for being armed insurrectionists, not for being ethnic Russians. B) Are (or were) themselves killing ethnic Ukrainians in the course of their armed insurrection. C) Probably themselves killed quite a few ethnically Russian members of the Ukrainian armed forces. > (or they have been the last 8 years, Yeah, exactly: Since they started an armed insurrection. > but more serious shelling started on February 17, 2022) Oh, what a convenient date. > and that is why Russia invaded. Putler says that is why Russia invaded. Oh: And so do you. Coincidence?
- sidibe 5y ago
  Luckily Russia had anticipated the increased shelling months before and therefore just happened to have 180000 soldiers surrounding Ukraine before this increased shelling happened right?

Loic 5y ago

The most important part in what you wrote: > no sane person wants to shoot their peaceful neighbors and relatives and this is the case for all Russians even most of the ones in the army in Ukraine, right now. People do not want war. Period. For a human being to go to war, he/she needs to be heavily indoctrinated to the point of partially losing is normal references. Even today, with heavily indoctrinated armies, only a small subset of the forces are effectively shooting bullets. War is decided by crazy leaders (and I am polite) far away from the lines.

reitanqild 5y ago
Luckily this also favours the defending side somewhat I hope: From listening to people who grew up with the veterans here in Norway I've learned that: - Germans were told they came here to protect us against the British so they would - in the beginning of the war - shoot to suppress, not to kill. I guess Russian soldiers coming into Ukraine has been tricked to believe the "peace keeping" nonsense too and had a rude awakening. - Norwegians however were already mad and shot to kill. I guess this holds true for Ukrainians too. This is natural and we've seen it in Afghanistan, Iraq etc too I think. - German soldiers would cryingly admit to POWs already at the start of the war that they were absolutely not voluntarily there, they'd just be shot if they refused.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >German soldiers would cryingly admit to POWs already at the start of the war that they were absolutely not voluntarily there, they'd just be shot if they refused No shit they weren't there voluntarily, no sane people want to go to their death, but those were the rules for mandatory conscription for them back then. Even today some European countries still have mandatory conscription, and while they won't shoot you for refusal, if you don't show up for conscription, military police will come to your house and arrest you, and if you run away, an arrest warrant will be issues on your name. So yeah, you have to do your mandatory service, even if you don't want to.
  - amcoastal 5y ago
    I'd sit in a jail cell before I got drafted into an unjust war. Doesn't seem like a hard decision to me. Now if you're repelling aggressive invaders, that's a different story.
    - reitanqild 5y ago
      FWIW going abroad has so far always been voluntary for drafted soldiers in most (all?) NATO countries as long as article 5 is not invoked. I shyed away from education / officer training because I felt the risk of being sent on peace keeping to the middle east, but 20 years later I see I could safely have done it.
      - amcoastal 5y ago
        I'm in the US, we remember vietnam.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    Ironically given the comment you replied to, Norway is one of them. I had military police trying to reach me the last few weeks before I moved to the UK to try to hand deliver a conscription notice as a necessary step before charging me if I again failed to show up (I'd ignored several prior notices). I didn't leave because of that, but I did delight I telling them I was beyond their reach. Finally picked up the phone the very day I left. My dad and uncle both served 3-4 months in prison for refusing as a matter of principle, and my intent was to do so too until we decided to move our startup at the time to London. Of course the main reason for that conscription was the Soviet Union/Russia. It's gotten very lenient since I left in 2000, as the size of the Norwegian military has been scaled back to the point they only need a small portion of potential recruits.
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MarcellusDrum 5y ago

The phrase "the free world" rubs me the wrong way. I'm obviously against what Russia is doing, any sane man would be. But as a middle eastern, the US to us has been 10x worse than Russia: They killed a million Iraqis, they killed Syrian civilians by bombing hospitals and schools. They overthrew a functional government in Libya, and they supported Syrian/Iraqi separatists (Kurds). They forcefully tried to build a military base in Lebanon. Not only that, but they also tortured, raped, and humiliated innocent Iraqis in Abou Gharib, without any major repercussions. Just because the US did it, doesn't mean that Russia is justified or less wrong, both are wrong, and neither get to call out the other for humanitarian reasons.

randomsearch 5y ago
If you think the US has been worse for the Syrians than Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of its cities, I cannot take the rest of your argument seriously.
- MarcellusDrum 5y ago
  The US overall has been worse to the Middle East overall than Russia is my argument. You knew that, of course, but you chose the vaguest claim in my argument, and ignored the rest which are also valid just to make yourself feel better. Which is fine, of course.
  - reitanqild 5y ago
    Reading this for a second time and sticking to what I said about being ashamed for many of the things the west did I'd also like to remind that Russia hasn't really done much at all in the middle East. But I can remember stories from my childhood about Russians tying up Afghan fighters and driving over them with tanks to make an example, so again without defending drone strikes on weddings or Abu Ghraib or anything other spectacularly bad I 1.) think it wouldn't have been much better if it was the Russians who went in 2.) think the reason why the Russian government hasn't been involved in more badness in the middle east until recently has not been its peaceful nature but the fact that they have been cash strapped.

tonguez 5y ago

"what sane person wants to shoot their peaceful neigbours and relatives?" Apparently ethnic Russians were being killed in Ukraine (or they have been the last 8 years, but more serious shelling started on February 17, 2022) and that is why Russia invaded.

CRConrad 5y ago
> Apparently At least according to Putler's propaganda. > ethnic Russians were being killed in Ukraine Far, far more ethnic Russians were not being killed in Ukraine. Sure, some of the instigators, perpetrators, and fellow travellers of the armed insurrection in East Ukraine are (or were) ethnic Russians, but they: A) Are being killed for being armed insurrectionists, not for being ethnic Russians. B) Are (or were) themselves killing ethnic Ukrainians in the course of their armed insurrection. C) Probably themselves killed quite a few ethnically Russian members of the Ukrainian armed forces. > (or they have been the last 8 years, Yeah, exactly: Since they started an armed insurrection. > but more serious shelling started on February 17, 2022) Oh, what a convenient date. > and that is why Russia invaded. Putler says that is why Russia invaded. Oh: And so do you. Coincidence?
sidibe 5y ago
Luckily Russia had anticipated the increased shelling months before and therefore just happened to have 180000 soldiers surrounding Ukraine before this increased shelling happened right?