4 ms·

Precisely this. In LA there are constant referendums about homelessness, in CA massive budget increases, and yet, nobody will allow a shelter or multi-family un

Precisely this. In LA there are constant referendums about homelessness, in CA massive budget increases, and yet, nobody will allow a shelter or multi-family unit to be constructed in their neighborhood, lest their soaring land value peak. In CA, it's my firm belief that people have a tad too much power over the minutae of government operations. What did we even elect people for if we are going to try to solve everything with referendums and protests?

sfe22 5y ago
So CA is too democratic in your opinion? It should slide more towards tyranny?
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  Absolutely not. Democracy can be fair and open elections, not crowdsourced legislation.
- setr 5y ago
  Sounds more like too much direct democracy, and needs to slide further towards representative.
  - sfe22 5y ago
    The emperor can also be your representative, and so is Putin to russians, and the slightly more complex US system. The slider is democracy to tyranny, just because we dont yet have democracy in most or all countries doesn't change anything here. We just have twisted its meaning to describe some decision power when choosing tyrants. Either all decide equally-democracy , or fewer to very few or one-tyranny.
  - rsync 5y ago
    Is that your opinion on marijuana policy in California? Which issues, pray tell, are best governed by local control and which are best governed by top-down, remote decision makers?
  - imtringued 5y ago
    You mean too little direct democracy. Only a handful of people are actually engaging in local politics and therey are no longer representing the community as a whole. Special interest groups are the opposite of democracy.
- Jarwain 5y ago
  Feels like a flamebaity false-dichotomy. Is it really tyrannical to, say, elect officials to act on our behalf and consider long-term impacts and x-order effects? Because to me that just sounds a little more "republic" and a little less "direct democracy".
- iso1210 5y ago
  That's the paradox isn't it. Mob rule ends up being tyranny.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  That's exactly it. One of the reasons that the US (and other representative democracies) have limits on direct voter rule explicitly to prevent a "too democratic" situation yielding "mob rule" outcomes.
  - sfe22 5y ago
    Sounds like a reason to justify tyranny to me. What do you mean mob rule. In a (true) democratic society just a small group can change something the majority disagrees with because they got together? The majority is also together in the same matter isnt it?
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      Well, the idea recognizes two concepts: - We don't want the minority enforcing on the majority - We don't want a plurality or even a majority enforcing on a minority under certain circumstances So, for instance, even if 300 million Americans think "sfe22 should be stripped of their assets and have it given to us 300 million" that's not going to happen. Yes, that is 'tyrannical' of you to have such power but it is so nonetheless.
      - sfe22 5y ago
        Unfortunately I don’t agree. If 95% Americans want to steal my assets, something is wrong with the them (or me), and I should have probably seen it coming and leave. Why would I want to live in such extreme society anymore. If I was used to set an example that still would tell many a lot about this hypothetical america. Would a tyrant really be of any help then, maybe if it was somehow “good” to me, for a limited time but definitely does not justify its existence and cost on freedom and wealth.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        Right, and that's your thesis for the world, but America lives under a different thesis, and some individual rights are protected, _even_ if 95% of people disagree.
- boredumb 5y ago
  Total democracy is mob rule of the majority.
- CPLX 5y ago
  Democracy isn't a Boolean value, it's a cluster of loosely related concepts and practices.
kuang_eleven 5y ago
Luckily, SB9 and SB10 are massive pushes in the right direction for California, accompanied by incandescent rage of my local NIMBYs.
- clairity 5y ago
  those bills are for political optics and favor, not to really make a dent in the homelessness issue. they're designed to allow people who already own land to make some extra cash, not to provide housing (less than 2% of CA residential properties can even take advantage of them). what we need are real, significant zoning reforms. things like making every residential zone mixed-use (residential + light commercial), and remove setback requirements, floor area ratio (FAR) restrictions, yard/parking specifications, and height restrictions.
nine_k 5y ago
For some reason, referendum-soaked Switzerland is governed somehow more sanely.
- richardfey 5y ago
  Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Switzerland
  - honkdaddy 5y ago
    If you somehow could swap the US population with the Swiss (times 30, of course), I imagine our homeless problems would evaporate within a few years. I believe homelessness represents a social issue in North America, not a political one. I live in New York and I don't think any amount of affordable housing, handouts, or government intervention solve fix the problems of the people I walk past every day, nor will they stop the pipeline of people soon to be in the same position.

sfe22 5y ago

So CA is too democratic in your opinion? It should slide more towards tyranny?

jvanderbot 5y ago
Absolutely not. Democracy can be fair and open elections, not crowdsourced legislation.
setr 5y ago
Sounds more like too much direct democracy, and needs to slide further towards representative.
- sfe22 5y ago
  The emperor can also be your representative, and so is Putin to russians, and the slightly more complex US system. The slider is democracy to tyranny, just because we dont yet have democracy in most or all countries doesn't change anything here. We just have twisted its meaning to describe some decision power when choosing tyrants. Either all decide equally-democracy , or fewer to very few or one-tyranny.
- rsync 5y ago
  Is that your opinion on marijuana policy in California? Which issues, pray tell, are best governed by local control and which are best governed by top-down, remote decision makers?
- imtringued 5y ago
  You mean too little direct democracy. Only a handful of people are actually engaging in local politics and therey are no longer representing the community as a whole. Special interest groups are the opposite of democracy.
Jarwain 5y ago
Feels like a flamebaity false-dichotomy. Is it really tyrannical to, say, elect officials to act on our behalf and consider long-term impacts and x-order effects? Because to me that just sounds a little more "republic" and a little less "direct democracy".
iso1210 5y ago
That's the paradox isn't it. Mob rule ends up being tyranny.
renewiltord 5y ago
That's exactly it. One of the reasons that the US (and other representative democracies) have limits on direct voter rule explicitly to prevent a "too democratic" situation yielding "mob rule" outcomes.
- sfe22 5y ago
  Sounds like a reason to justify tyranny to me. What do you mean mob rule. In a (true) democratic society just a small group can change something the majority disagrees with because they got together? The majority is also together in the same matter isnt it?
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Well, the idea recognizes two concepts: - We don't want the minority enforcing on the majority - We don't want a plurality or even a majority enforcing on a minority under certain circumstances So, for instance, even if 300 million Americans think "sfe22 should be stripped of their assets and have it given to us 300 million" that's not going to happen. Yes, that is 'tyrannical' of you to have such power but it is so nonetheless.
    - sfe22 5y ago
      Unfortunately I don’t agree. If 95% Americans want to steal my assets, something is wrong with the them (or me), and I should have probably seen it coming and leave. Why would I want to live in such extreme society anymore. If I was used to set an example that still would tell many a lot about this hypothetical america. Would a tyrant really be of any help then, maybe if it was somehow “good” to me, for a limited time but definitely does not justify its existence and cost on freedom and wealth.
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        Right, and that's your thesis for the world, but America lives under a different thesis, and some individual rights are protected, _even_ if 95% of people disagree.
boredumb 5y ago
Total democracy is mob rule of the majority.
CPLX 5y ago
Democracy isn't a Boolean value, it's a cluster of loosely related concepts and practices.

kuang_eleven 5y ago

Luckily, SB9 and SB10 are massive pushes in the right direction for California, accompanied by incandescent rage of my local NIMBYs.

clairity 5y ago
those bills are for political optics and favor, not to really make a dent in the homelessness issue. they're designed to allow people who already own land to make some extra cash, not to provide housing (less than 2% of CA residential properties can even take advantage of them). what we need are real, significant zoning reforms. things like making every residential zone mixed-use (residential + light commercial), and remove setback requirements, floor area ratio (FAR) restrictions, yard/parking specifications, and height restrictions.

nine_k 5y ago

For some reason, referendum-soaked Switzerland is governed somehow more sanely.

richardfey 5y ago
Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Switzerland
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  If you somehow could swap the US population with the Swiss (times 30, of course), I imagine our homeless problems would evaporate within a few years. I believe homelessness represents a social issue in North America, not a political one. I live in New York and I don't think any amount of affordable housing, handouts, or government intervention solve fix the problems of the people I walk past every day, nor will they stop the pipeline of people soon to be in the same position.