4 ms·

Putting things on a peer network is the very definition of losing control of your videos. Once something's p2p, can't ever be modified or taken down. It's a gr

Putting things on a peer network is the very definition of losing control of your videos. Once something's p2p, can't ever be modified or taken down. It's a great value prop for pirates who want easy access to illegal movies and trolls who want their inflammatory opinions to ruffle feathers forever, but it's a pretty lousy deal for everyone else.

jka 5y ago
Can you see any ways in which uploading your videos to one of a (very) small number of market-leading platforms could be problematic, in contrast?
- hannasanarion 5y ago
  Certainly. But one thing that they definitely do, and that p2p hosting does not, is give people control of their videos, which is what this headline is claiming.
  - jka 5y ago
    Ok, thanks - I'm more ambivalent about the situation: I think it can be unclear, and can depend on people's perspectives regarding privacy and control, and the behaviours of the platforms and software available (all of which can be culture, context and chronology sensitive). Perhaps the existence of different options at the moment is necessary until there's (ever?) any consensus on a satisfying unified technology and sharing model for content. (if this seems confusing, please consider: it's not a technological absolute that use of a peer-to-peer platform means that you have to share your content with everyone; it can be a choice if the technology caters for it)
imwillofficial 5y ago
You can control how they are shared, if at all. It’s not a binary choice. I run a self hosted instance and don’t share anything with anyone.
vorpalhex 5y ago
That's a feature. Youtube (read Google) should not be the global police on what videos are allowed. Yes, what is posted on the internet can not be taken back. That has always been and remains true. No, I don't think piracy/trolls/whatever needs peertube, they do just fine without it now.
- hannasanarion 5y ago
  But that's not what this headline is claiming. It's claiming that PeerTube will give you control of your videos. That's the one thing that p2p services do not and cannot ever do. Putting content on p2p is synonymous with giving up control of it forever.
  - eitland 5y ago
    On YouTube you cannot control anything: - YouTube can remove it - people can store offline copies On Peertube at least YouTube can't take it down which means you have more control over it.
    - hannasanarion 5y ago
      You don't think that youtube channels have the ability to take down or edit their own videos? What exactly do you think "control" means?
      - southerntofu 5y ago
        I realize you're probably just trolling, but Peertube also has a button to delete your own video. The instance will stop serving/seeding it so even if some people hold a copy it will be hard if possible at all (even with the info hash) to access it. Of course some people could upload it again someplace else and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. Not that different from traditional tape media and CD/DVD.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    This argument is weaksauce. Putting anything publicly on the internet immediately means relinquishing control of it. P2P has nothing to do with that. "Take back control" is geared towards hosts. You can run your own tube site. That's what the slogan is talking about. Also, peertube is no more p2p than bitchute. It uses webRTC to offload server load onto clients for popular videos, that's it.
waffle_maniac 5y ago
When I run ‘youtube-dl’ on your YouTube video will you live in fear for the rest of your life?
- hannasanarion 5y ago
  No, but youtube-dl isn't being marketed at video owners as a way to "take back control of your videos".
- xmprt 5y ago
  I've deleted/privated/unlisted a few cringy YouTube videos from about 10 years ago. I have fairly high confidence that even in the insanely rare case that my other videos become popular or I become a celebrity, no one will find those old videos. That's not possible with a P2P service.
  - sp332 5y ago
    It's about the same. If no one cares to seed and save your videos, they will not be accessible.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    It's definitely possible. First because the list of videos you advertise on an instance/channel is dynamic, not an append-only log like on a blockchain. So you can properly delist a video from your Peertube channel and it will no longer appear to clients. Second, because even if people still has the infohash somehow and continue to seed it, there needs to be a mechanism to find other peers when someone wants to download the content (how did they obtain the infohash?). It's technically possible (although becoming harder with peertube moving from Webtorrent to WebRTC+HLS) but not a supported use-case (you'd have to write another piece of software for that). All in all, the situation is pretty similar to that of Youtube. Yes someone could have a copy of your cringy videos and decide to upload them elsewhere, but your followers would not automagically discover them. The same goes with Peertube, which is more federated than P2P in its design.
amelius 5y ago
This is not about controlling which videos are taken down. This is about controlling that video's can't be taken down.
- hannasanarion 5y ago
  The headline is "take back control of YOUR videos". Videos that you downloaded from other people aren't yours. You might own a copy, but that's no different from any other system of distribution. The difference between p2p and standard distribution is that the owner loses control.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - infogulch 5y ago
    Who owns it when it's on YouTube? "The people who can destroy a thing, they control it." - Dune Google owns it. With peertube and the like, maybe you don't own it, but at least Google doesn't either.
    - hannasanarion 5y ago
      > With peertube and the like, maybe you don't own it, Then why are they advertising with the slogan "take back control"???
      - infogulch 5y ago
        Maybe the answer would be more clear if you read the end of that quote.
        hannasanarion 5y ago
        And maybe you would understand why that statement makes absolutely no sense if you read the headline of this thread. It doesn't say "take control away from Youtube and Google", it says take back control of your videos. p2p is the ultimate destruction of control, that's the entire point of it. Saying that peertube gives you control is like saying that playing a slot machine gives you ROI.
karmanyaahm 5y ago
> can't ever be modified or taken down. > but it's a pretty lousy deal for everyone else Is it really a lousy deal for anyone who doesn't agree with YouTube/Facebook/Twitter's moderation (political or otherwise)? Or do you think that everyone the big platforms disagree with are 'trolls who want their inflammatory opinions'?
- hannasanarion 5y ago
  Why in the world would someone who wants "control" of their content use p2p instead of youtube? If you're worried about platform censorship, the solution that gives you more control is to self-host, not to completely resign all editorial power for the rest of eternity by handing your content over to a peer network. p2p doesn't give you control of content, it takes away all control of content by ossifying it as-is.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > If you're worried about platform censorship, the solution that gives you more control is to self-host Thanks for pointing this out! This is precisely what the Peertube project is about. It's *not* a P2P tube where discovery/notification is unmediated between peers. Peertube is a software for selfhosting your own "tube", which supports federation between hosts so your content can be discovered from elsewhere (with allow/deny lists supported). The P2P bits of Peertube is only for video delivery, which is very clever. It was always possible to setup your own Youtube (eg. with MediaGoblin) but who had the hardware and connectivity to do that?! Especially since: - if a video has a peak of popularity, a centralized setup has to send a separate stream to every viewer - if people want to view a video from which your instance doesn't have good connectivity, it will be terrible user experience, unless you as a server operator setup a sort of CDN which is expensive and more complex than it has to be Peertube has a very interesting hybrid federated/p2p design where the owner retains control on the published material (you can delete videos from your account), but both viewers and federated instances replicating your materials can help seed it to more people. Peertube is intended for selfhosting for existing communities (non-profits, conferences, classrooms, etc) and it gives us the practical power to do it without requiring thousands of euros of monthly infrastructure bills.
hidudeurcool 5y ago
[dead]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> It's a great value prop for pirates who want easy access to illegal movies and trolls who want their inflammatory opinions to ruffle feathers forever, but it's a pretty lousy deal for everyone else. Not everyone else; it's a good deal for anyone who wants their content to be censorship-resistant, which is not just trolls and pirates.
littlestymaar 5y ago
But this is not how it works with peertube: you aren't publishing a torrent containing a video, you are uploading a video to a specific peertube instance, and on top of that there is a WebRTC-based P2P CDN (you're sharing data with other people watching the same video at the same time), but that's it.

jka 5y ago

Can you see any ways in which uploading your videos to one of a (very) small number of market-leading platforms could be problematic, in contrast?

hannasanarion 5y ago
Certainly. But one thing that they definitely do, and that p2p hosting does not, is give people control of their videos, which is what this headline is claiming.
- jka 5y ago
  Ok, thanks - I'm more ambivalent about the situation: I think it can be unclear, and can depend on people's perspectives regarding privacy and control, and the behaviours of the platforms and software available (all of which can be culture, context and chronology sensitive). Perhaps the existence of different options at the moment is necessary until there's (ever?) any consensus on a satisfying unified technology and sharing model for content. (if this seems confusing, please consider: it's not a technological absolute that use of a peer-to-peer platform means that you have to share your content with everyone; it can be a choice if the technology caters for it)

imwillofficial 5y ago

You can control how they are shared, if at all. It’s not a binary choice. I run a self hosted instance and don’t share anything with anyone.

vorpalhex 5y ago

That's a feature. Youtube (read Google) should not be the global police on what videos are allowed. Yes, what is posted on the internet can not be taken back. That has always been and remains true. No, I don't think piracy/trolls/whatever needs peertube, they do just fine without it now.

hannasanarion 5y ago
But that's not what this headline is claiming. It's claiming that PeerTube will give you control of your videos. That's the one thing that p2p services do not and cannot ever do. Putting content on p2p is synonymous with giving up control of it forever.
- eitland 5y ago
  On YouTube you cannot control anything: - YouTube can remove it - people can store offline copies On Peertube at least YouTube can't take it down which means you have more control over it.
  - hannasanarion 5y ago
    You don't think that youtube channels have the ability to take down or edit their own videos? What exactly do you think "control" means?
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      I realize you're probably just trolling, but Peertube also has a button to delete your own video. The instance will stop serving/seeding it so even if some people hold a copy it will be hard if possible at all (even with the info hash) to access it. Of course some people could upload it again someplace else and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it. Not that different from traditional tape media and CD/DVD.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  This argument is weaksauce. Putting anything publicly on the internet immediately means relinquishing control of it. P2P has nothing to do with that. "Take back control" is geared towards hosts. You can run your own tube site. That's what the slogan is talking about. Also, peertube is no more p2p than bitchute. It uses webRTC to offload server load onto clients for popular videos, that's it.

waffle_maniac 5y ago

When I run ‘youtube-dl’ on your YouTube video will you live in fear for the rest of your life?

hannasanarion 5y ago
No, but youtube-dl isn't being marketed at video owners as a way to "take back control of your videos".
xmprt 5y ago
I've deleted/privated/unlisted a few cringy YouTube videos from about 10 years ago. I have fairly high confidence that even in the insanely rare case that my other videos become popular or I become a celebrity, no one will find those old videos. That's not possible with a P2P service.
- sp332 5y ago
  It's about the same. If no one cares to seed and save your videos, they will not be accessible.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  It's definitely possible. First because the list of videos you advertise on an instance/channel is dynamic, not an append-only log like on a blockchain. So you can properly delist a video from your Peertube channel and it will no longer appear to clients. Second, because even if people still has the infohash somehow and continue to seed it, there needs to be a mechanism to find other peers when someone wants to download the content (how did they obtain the infohash?). It's technically possible (although becoming harder with peertube moving from Webtorrent to WebRTC+HLS) but not a supported use-case (you'd have to write another piece of software for that). All in all, the situation is pretty similar to that of Youtube. Yes someone could have a copy of your cringy videos and decide to upload them elsewhere, but your followers would not automagically discover them. The same goes with Peertube, which is more federated than P2P in its design.

amelius 5y ago

This is not about controlling which videos are taken down. This is about controlling that video's can't be taken down.

hannasanarion 5y ago
The headline is "take back control of YOUR videos". Videos that you downloaded from other people aren't yours. You might own a copy, but that's no different from any other system of distribution. The difference between p2p and standard distribution is that the owner loses control.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- infogulch 5y ago
  Who owns it when it's on YouTube? "The people who can destroy a thing, they control it." - Dune Google owns it. With peertube and the like, maybe you don't own it, but at least Google doesn't either.
  - hannasanarion 5y ago
    > With peertube and the like, maybe you don't own it, Then why are they advertising with the slogan "take back control"???
    - infogulch 5y ago
      Maybe the answer would be more clear if you read the end of that quote.
      - hannasanarion 5y ago
        And maybe you would understand why that statement makes absolutely no sense if you read the headline of this thread. It doesn't say "take control away from Youtube and Google", it says take back control of your videos. p2p is the ultimate destruction of control, that's the entire point of it. Saying that peertube gives you control is like saying that playing a slot machine gives you ROI.

karmanyaahm 5y ago

> can't ever be modified or taken down. > but it's a pretty lousy deal for everyone else Is it really a lousy deal for anyone who doesn't agree with YouTube/Facebook/Twitter's moderation (political or otherwise)? Or do you think that everyone the big platforms disagree with are 'trolls who want their inflammatory opinions'?

hannasanarion 5y ago
Why in the world would someone who wants "control" of their content use p2p instead of youtube? If you're worried about platform censorship, the solution that gives you more control is to self-host, not to completely resign all editorial power for the rest of eternity by handing your content over to a peer network. p2p doesn't give you control of content, it takes away all control of content by ossifying it as-is.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > If you're worried about platform censorship, the solution that gives you more control is to self-host Thanks for pointing this out! This is precisely what the Peertube project is about. It's *not* a P2P tube where discovery/notification is unmediated between peers. Peertube is a software for selfhosting your own "tube", which supports federation between hosts so your content can be discovered from elsewhere (with allow/deny lists supported). The P2P bits of Peertube is only for video delivery, which is very clever. It was always possible to setup your own Youtube (eg. with MediaGoblin) but who had the hardware and connectivity to do that?! Especially since: - if a video has a peak of popularity, a centralized setup has to send a separate stream to every viewer - if people want to view a video from which your instance doesn't have good connectivity, it will be terrible user experience, unless you as a server operator setup a sort of CDN which is expensive and more complex than it has to be Peertube has a very interesting hybrid federated/p2p design where the owner retains control on the published material (you can delete videos from your account), but both viewers and federated instances replicating your materials can help seed it to more people. Peertube is intended for selfhosting for existing communities (non-profits, conferences, classrooms, etc) and it gives us the practical power to do it without requiring thousands of euros of monthly infrastructure bills.

hidudeurcool 5y ago

[dead]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

> It's a great value prop for pirates who want easy access to illegal movies and trolls who want their inflammatory opinions to ruffle feathers forever, but it's a pretty lousy deal for everyone else. Not everyone else; it's a good deal for anyone who wants their content to be censorship-resistant, which is not just trolls and pirates.

littlestymaar 5y ago

But this is not how it works with peertube: you aren't publishing a torrent containing a video, you are uploading a video to a specific peertube instance, and on top of that there is a WebRTC-based P2P CDN (you're sharing data with other people watching the same video at the same time), but that's it.