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OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer' (1994)
- caycep 5y agohttps://www.engadget.com/2014-02-26-when-carl-sagan-sued-apple-twice.html https://www.engadget.com/2014-02-26-when-carl-sagan-sued-app...
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago> There can be no question that the use of the figurative term "Butt-Head" negates the impression that Defendant was seriously implying an assertion of fact. It strains reason to conclude that Defendant was attempting to criticize Plaintiff's reputation or competency as an astronomer. One does not seriously attack the expertise of a scientist using the undefined phrase "butt-head." Oh, to have been a fly on the wall when the judge said/wrote that...
- jl2718 5y agoI had an office-mate who maintained the telescopes at CalTech, and this was also his personal opinion about Sagan.
- echelon 5y agoCare to elaborate? I've always held Sagan in utmost esteem and I'm curious others' takes are. The last time I read his Wikipedia entry it mentioned that contemporaneous scientists felt he wasn't contributing much to the field despite his fame, but I think public outreach is immensely valuable in shaping the next generation of discoverers and policy makers.
- pmcollins 5y agoi saw sagan speak at berkeley in the mid nineties. he was shockingly and brazenly rude to the person running the a/v setup, through his microphone, so the entire overflowing audience could hear every last detail. it was way over the top. appreciate all he’s done for science and outreach but it seems he had an intense personality.
- kelnos 5y agoUnfortunately many prominent/famous people present an extremely curated and sanitized version of their personality to the public, and often treat people poorly in private. Shame to learn that seems to have been the case for someone like Sagan.
- ars 5y agoI've never publicly said this before, but I had this experience with Donald Knuth - I emailed asking him for copyright permission for something on Wikipedia, and he gave it (public domain), but he was extremely nasty about it because I had to reply asking for clarification and apparently receiving an email was extremely disruptive to him. I try not to talk to public figures, most of them are only nice when in the context of what they are trying to sell. The rare exceptions deserve the praise they get. I don't even know why I'm writing this......... it was years ago.
- EvanAnderson 5y agoKnuth's distaste for email is well known: https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html That doesn't excuse being nasty to somebody, though.
- awb 5y agoAnother perspective is that we idolize many prominent/famous people and when they have a normal range of emotions (fear, anger, disgust, resentment, frustration, etc.), or just having a bad day, we judge them for it.
- spaetzleesser 5y agoThe reasonably famous people I have interacted with had public and private personas that were very distinct from each other. The public persona is what most people but the private persona can be very different. Being famous is basically an acting job. And to become famous you usually have to be very driven and can't always be nice.
- AndrewGreen 5y agoI met him once. Right after Shoemaker-Levy 9 impacted Jupiter there was an event at the Mountain View Holiday Inn where he talked about it. I'd arrived a bit early (as an attendee), and while waiting for things to kick off I snuck out for a cigarette. Halfway through it, there was Carl (f*cking) Sagan walking across the parking lot towards me! I dropped/stubbed my cig and told him how much I was inspired by 'Cosmos' and especially by the Library of Alexandria episode/ He said yes, it was really good and that was mainly down to his wife's work. And then he signed my cheap paperback copy of 'Cosmos' and headed in to the seminar. I'm sure he could be a dick. But that certainly wasn't all he was.
- sammalloy 5y agoWas this a Planetary Society event?
- AndrewGreen 5y agoYes, almost certainly.
- ask_b123 5y agoSomewhat unrelated but his Library of Alexandria episode is not very accurate: https://historyforatheists.com/2017/07/the-destruction-of-the-great-library-of-alexandria/ https://historyforatheists.com/2017/07/the-destruction-of-th... https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/1nqrl0/carl_sagan_the_library_of_alexandria_and_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/1nqrl0/carl_sag...
- hindsightbias 5y agoSimilar to all the ragers about NdGT. Scientists awful at marketing angry about guy who can function well on the radio and tv and inspire funding and the next generation. Reminds me of all the people still mad about dodgeball in HS. Neil would have pummeled anyone in dodgeball and the nicest dude in person.
- spunker540 5y agoPretty rare for me to see a case with Apple where I feel it’s the other party being overly litigious about trivial naming!
- kelnos 5y agoThat was my thought as well! I clicked on this expecting to read a tale of some sort of corporate overreach. As much as I respect Carl Sagan for his contributions to science (and promoting public knowledge of scientific concepts), he does sound like a butt-head.
- gwd 5y agoI think Sagan was totally right to ask Apple to clarify that he had not endorsed their product. I think Apple engineers were being butt-heads when they got annoyed at this and renamed the project "BHA". But that should have been as far as Sagan went; suing for libel because someone calls you a "butt-head" is really foolish.
- drewcoo 5y agoThat's ok. I have an Apple Genius in my garage. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage
- localhost 5y agoA link to the JudyRecord of the judgement [1] yields a better quote: Because a reasonable factfinder could not conclude that "Butt-Head Astronomer" implied that Plaintiff was a less than able astronomer or that Plaintiff was legally wrong in asking Defendant to cease using Plaintiff's name, the only remaining assertion is the bare statement that Plaintiff is a "Butt-Head Astronomer." Clearly this phrase cannot rest on a core of objective evidence. Plaintiff does not suggest any other assertions of objective fact that could be reasonably implied from the phrase. Based on an analysis of the factors identified in Unelko, the Court has no reason to conclude that the statement made by Defendant implies an assertion of objective fact. Milkovich, 497 U.S. at 21, 110 S. Ct. at 2707 . Therefore, the statement is protected under the First Amendment and cannot form the basis of a claim for libel. [1] https://www.judyrecords.com/record/zbvxoh5rdf1a https://www.judyrecords.com/record/zbvxoh5rdf1a
- CamperBob2 5y agoTherefore, the statement is protected under the First Amendment and cannot form the basis of a claim for libel. That's kind of odd. What does the First Amendment have to do with libel law? Doesn't 1A constrain only the government from prohibiting or forcing speech?
- unixfg 5y agoWho enforces libel law?
- kelnos 5y agoLibel laws, themselves, are a restriction on free speech, no? If I sue someone for libel and win, it's not me that's restricting the other party's freedom of speech, it's the government. I merely asked them to do it.
- moralestapia 5y agoIt is not a restriction on free speech, libel exists within a particular context where there is demonstrable material damage to the person that was the target of said statements, which have to be demonstrably false and demonstrably published in bad faith. Libel laws, then, deal with the reparation of said inflicted damage. A crude analogy, if you stab somebody, the crime is not the knife, it is the stabbing. No need to put a restriction on knives (although there's some but you get the idea).
- donatj 5y ago> In response, the project manager changed the computer's code-name to "Butt-Head Astronomer." Sagan filed suit in federal court for libel [and] the use of likenesses. I feel like the latter legally counteracts the former. For it to be his likeness, has has to admit that he is infact a "Butt-Head Astronomer". If you openly admit you are something, it's not libel? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_penis_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_penis_rule
- not2b 5y agoApple had the legal right, sure, but they should have just respected Sagan's desire for them not to use his name without being dicks about it. They used his name without permission for a codename, he asked them to stop, so the changed the name to "Butt-Head Astronomer", in a way that everyone involved with the project knew it was a reference to him. I pictured a bunch of people with the emotional maturity of 15-year-olds when I saw that.
- msgilligan 5y agoThis was back in the days when very few people knew or cared about Apple code names.
- Lammy 5y ago> They used his name without permission for a codename, he asked them to stop There's some additional context that makes me more sympathetic to Sagan here too. The "Carl Sagan"/"BHA" machine (Power Macintosh 7100) was introduced alongside two other machines whose codenames reference fraudulent/unproven science: - The 6100 is "Piltdown Man" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_6100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_6100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man - The 8100 is "Cold Fusion" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_8100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_8100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
- majormajor 5y agoTo further muddle it, though, those were very much a set of good/better/best machines! (Or arguably "bleh/good/best" re: that 6100.) At the time, I saaw Cold Fusion as an aspirational codename for the best of the first-gen PowerPC boxes. Sagan's inclusion is still weird, though, as the others are things, not people.
- msgilligan 5y agoIf I remember correctly, it might have had something to do with Carl Sagan's catchphrase "billons and billions". The machine had "billions and billions" of something (bytes, MIPs?)
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- hownottowrite 5y agoMost of what people love about Carl Sagan is really just Ann Druyan showing through.
- cosmiccatnap 5y ago
- travisgriggs 5y agoIt's interesting how the slur is even a double entendre. They literally butted heads with an astronomer about using said astronomer's name. In that sense, they were being honest and deferential to his request. I love the ambiguities the English language affords.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoI have experienced cases of classically educated manager types being offended by project codenames using Greek mythology characters. E.g. Zeus et al. are bad because of all the bad stuff they did. Story: All the blue collar workers and engineers working on the project for 3 years using the Greek codename thought it was awesome and we’re going to put up a team poster with the image/codename when it was finally just finished. One walk through by upper management canceled the poster because one of them was offended.
- sandworm101 5y agoThe norse gods are in favor now. I doubt anyone would complain about Project Oden. In a decade or so the MCU will have moved on and Egyptian gods will probably be cool.
- Mountain_Skies 5y agoOden and Norse mythology are connected with white supremacy. In the current environment where an extremely dubious connection between the ok finger gesture and white supremacy caused people to lose their jobs and be vilified in the press, using names from Norse mythology is a risky choice.
- topranks 5y agoI love Carl Sagan but come on. The internal codename for a project is not something to get worked up about. It was probably intended as a sort of tribute by whoever called it that.
- Jerry2 5y agoMy grandfather was in the US Air Force and has served as lieutenant general. He told me a story about the time he met Carl Sagan. He organized a conference on space for USAF officers and someone suggested he invite Sagan to give a keynote speech. My grandfather told me that Sagan was trouble from the start. He (or his office?) cancelled or delayed the conference multiple times and his list of demands for lodging rivaled those of a rock band. He also said he was rude and never smiled. After he gave his speech, one of the colonels asked him a question that my grandfather said was good and interesting but Sagan dismissed him in one sentence and didn't even want to engage him on it. BTW, that colonel is now a general and in charge of USSF!
- sandworm101 5y agoI've seen scientists reacts strangely to military people. There are all sorts of reasons, mostly based on false assumptions about the sort of people who chose a military life. But equally, lots of famous people are just jerks. Many at the top of thier fields, be them scientist or admiral, got there by walking over or past other people.
- freedomben 5y ago> mostly based on false assumptions about the sort of people who chose a military life. Very good point. The prejudice against military people is very real, especially in tech. I took my military service off my resume and unless directly asked about it I try to avoid disclosing it.
- sandworm101 5y agoAny company with a culture that causes vets to hide thier service should look long hard at their diversity program. If they cannot tolerate a former soldier they are probably pretty intolerant of all sorts of other groups too. I was walking home one day, in uniform through a rural area, when i helped push a car out of a ditch. The lady driving seemed to recoil at me. But then her husband explained that i was not a hunter, that the camo was a uniform. She was vegan. She has seen me walking through the area in early mornings and thought i was scouting for deer.
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- colin_mccabe 5y agoHmm. If Apple names something "Butt-Head Astronomer" and Carl Sagan sues, saying that they used his name... what does that imply about Sagan? One for the history books.
- fzzzy 5y agoMy friend and I named a band after this news when it happened. https://buttheadastronomers.bandcamp.com/ https://buttheadastronomers.bandcamp.com/
- itisit 5y agoCarl proves himself to be the pejorative here. I can only imagine the lawyers on both sides convening for a healthy series of drinks at their clients’ expense. This is as petty as it gets, and it would serve Sagan’s mythology well to have it forgotten.