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Automakers argue that independent shops can already get the data they need, with permission — but making it automatically accessible by third parties is dangero

Automakers argue that independent shops can already get the data they need, with permission — but making it automatically accessible by third parties is dangerous. Yeah, this is just further BS in a long line of BS. This continuing quest to build vehicles that cannot be serviced by anybody but a dealer is just a tactic to make more money off the misery of customers. I dearly wish they just banned the sale of any auto that couldn't comply. We honestly need to deal with this company throws a hissy-fit culture (e.g. Apple and the App Store) every time society says it wants all companies in a sector to act in a certain way. This rent seeking is just getting out of hand. Also, statements like its "impossible" should be brought to a court to ascertain the truth value and fine the heck out of liars.

nickff 5y ago
>"Yeah, this is just further BS in a long line of BS. This continuing quest to build vehicles that cannot be serviced by anybody but a dealer is just a tactic to make more money off the misery of customers." It's not BS. The fact is that it's much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles. This is especially true when the vehicles must comply with complex rules and regulations which constrain the design.
- avs733 5y ago
  Obfuscating (because that’s what they are doing not encrypting for security). Revisiting releasing documentation is more effort than posting it on a damn website. Takes time and money. Writing code, developing tools, and creating repair manuals has to be done either way. How in gods name is making something accessible more expensive when you are already doing these things for your internal technicians.
  - nickff 5y ago
    >" Obfuscating (because that’s what they are doing not encrypting for security). Revisiting releasing documentation is more effort than posting it on a damn website." There is a great deal of encryption on modern vehicles; most new models have encrypted communications backbones. >"Takes time and money. Writing code, developing tools, and creating repair manuals has to be done either way." What takes time and money? Obfuscation, or creating open tools? I think you may be surprised to learn how poorly the 'design-side' supports the 'service-side' in automotive and other vehicular industries. >"How in gods name is making something accessible more expensive when you are already doing these things for your internal technicians." The automakers do a lot of ad-hoc stuff, and they're often inconsistent between models and platforms. Making things uniformly accessible is different from their normal modus operandi, and likely more expensive.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- protomyth 5y ago
  I would question any evidence of its "much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles." The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true. If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops. The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public.
  - nickff 5y ago
    >" The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true." Dealership mechanics are usually more junior (less experienced) than independent mechanics, but they spend all their time working on a much smaller range of models, so they're generally better on those vehicles. Having every special tool, and a great deal of training helps too. >"If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops." In general, the dealers are very good with recent models, and less good with older ones. The people doing youtube videos are often ex-dealership mechanics, who have a lot of experience with older models, and are usually better than the current dealership staff (on the older models). >"The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public. " There are many devices which are extremely difficult for third parties to service, including aircraft engines. I don't think this necessarily means the items are dangerous, but it does mean you should consider your maintenance schedule and provider when making a purchase decision.
    - 5y ago
- magikaram 5y ago
  Before OBD2, you were at odds with diagnostic software to troubleshoot vehicular problems. Mechanics, third parties, and owners could not use the onboard computers to resolve issues with the car, or emissions. OBD2 as is required by the NHTSA, enables anyone with a scanner to view the diagnostic information, as well as the state of variables on a running engine. Say what you will about electric cars, but any vehicle with a standard diagnostic port is easily able to be worked on. With modern telematics, and datapoints that the manufacturers have been able to record, giving the ability to access thay information to third party repair and the customers, you can have more choice, and get this, ability to have repairs done. Dealers are not anywhere near always the best place to get a car repaired. In 10 years time, when the new cars age, they will need repair and maintenance that the dealer may overcharge for. If I had to service both of ny cars at the dealership, oil changes would cost me 3 times as much as I can do myself, brakes cost 2 times as much as a local shop can perform. Dealers don't provide a greater service to a vehicle than a standard mechanic shop can provide other than verified manufacturer parts at markup.
  - nickff 5y ago
    >"OBD2 as is required by the NHTSA, enables anyone with a scanner to view the diagnostic information, as well as the state of variables on a running engine. Say what you will about electric cars, but any vehicle with a standard diagnostic port is easily able to be worked on." ODB2 reveals only some trouble codes; manufacturer-specific tools will tell you much more about what's going on. >"With modern telematics, and datapoints that the manufacturers have been able to record, giving the ability to access thay information to third party repair and the customers, you can have more choice, and get this, ability to have repairs done." I don't understand what you mean by this, and I've spent many years working in automotive diagnostics. >"Dealers are not anywhere near always the best place to get a car repaired. In 10 years time, when the new cars age, they will need repair and maintenance that the dealer may overcharge for. If I had to service both of ny cars at the dealership, oil changes would cost me 3 times as much as I can do myself, brakes cost 2 times as much as a local shop can perform. Dealers don't provide a greater service to a vehicle than a standard mechanic shop can provide other than verified manufacturer parts at markup. " I agree that dealers aren't always best, but they're generally quite good when the vehicle is less than about 10 years old. They have all the best tools, training, and experience with those vehicles. Independent mechanics (especially those who focus on a few brands) are generally better with older vehicles.
- owisd 5y ago
  Do the vehicles benefit from specialist tools because the manufacturer has innovated some new piece of tech unique to their company, or have they simply taken off the shelf components and tweaked them just enough that standard tools don't work without adding any actual value? (Nintendo Y-shaped screwheads spring to mind) The answer is probably a combination of the two, so it's always going to be a trade-off.
- mysterydip 5y ago
  I had to get a couple components on my car replaced recently. The dealer quoted me $6000 for the job. I had it done by a reputable shop instead for $1600.
- spicybright 5y ago
  Your claim is baseless. But even if we entertain this is true, it puts automakers in the perfect place to rent seek and rake in profits. It takes ownership away from the individual. It's wasteful as perfectly good cars could become un-repairable that would otherwise have a longer life. Plus, if right to repair was enforced for all cars, you can still operate the same way and only get repairs from the dealer. Only cheaper as they'll have to compete with other mechanics now.
- kohanz 5y ago
  Is the parent OP light gray because of the status of the poster or due to downvotes? If it's the latter, it saddens me that this Reddit-esque behavior is finding footing on HN. You may (vehemently, even) disagree with what the parent post states (I do too), but that should not be a basis to downvote, especially when they stated their POV respectfully.
- Volundr 5y ago
  > It's not BS. The fact is that it's much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles Unless I'm missing something nothing you state here is disallowed by the right to repair law. That "suite of tools" you describe just has to be made available to everyone, not just the specialists.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  Then why do dealerships typically charge so much more than other repair shops?
nonbirithm 5y ago
When designing a feature, there could be a new measure that quantifies the degree of reliance on the OEM to repair that feature in case it breaks. In other words, even if the feature is technologically innovative or useful, the manufacturer would need some kind of incentive against implementing it if the ability for a third party to service it is non-existent. The same could be said for software features as well. (Such as: "how many salaried employees would I need to operate such a feature at scale", etc.)
raxxorrax 5y ago
> The data platform that the new law requires to provide the data does not exist and will not exist any time soon This is such a lazy excuse... There would be tons of possible ways to transmit such information. There is no industry standard, but I don't see how that would be needed.
pavon 5y ago
Actually, I agree that providing all that telemetry information to any "mechanic" who asks is a huge privacy concern, and potentially dangerous. However, that really raises the question of why the manufacturers should be trusted with the information themselves. They are collecting data that goes far beyond any legitimate need they have to provide service. In the short term disabling these systems is a completely reasonable way of complying with the law. They weren't designed with the ability to share data with third parties (or even the owner), let alone have a reasonable way for the owner to authenticate who is authorized to access the data. The real test is whether manufacturers implement these features in new cars in ways that comply with the law, of if they continue to try to play hardball. The best solution to that is to introduce more right-to-repair laws in more states or at the federal level, and privacy laws that limit data collection to the minimum needed.

nickff 5y ago

>"Yeah, this is just further BS in a long line of BS. This continuing quest to build vehicles that cannot be serviced by anybody but a dealer is just a tactic to make more money off the misery of customers." It's not BS. The fact is that it's much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles. This is especially true when the vehicles must comply with complex rules and regulations which constrain the design.

avs733 5y ago
Obfuscating (because that’s what they are doing not encrypting for security). Revisiting releasing documentation is more effort than posting it on a damn website. Takes time and money. Writing code, developing tools, and creating repair manuals has to be done either way. How in gods name is making something accessible more expensive when you are already doing these things for your internal technicians.
- nickff 5y ago
  >" Obfuscating (because that’s what they are doing not encrypting for security). Revisiting releasing documentation is more effort than posting it on a damn website." There is a great deal of encryption on modern vehicles; most new models have encrypted communications backbones. >"Takes time and money. Writing code, developing tools, and creating repair manuals has to be done either way." What takes time and money? Obfuscation, or creating open tools? I think you may be surprised to learn how poorly the 'design-side' supports the 'service-side' in automotive and other vehicular industries. >"How in gods name is making something accessible more expensive when you are already doing these things for your internal technicians." The automakers do a lot of ad-hoc stuff, and they're often inconsistent between models and platforms. Making things uniformly accessible is different from their normal modus operandi, and likely more expensive.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
protomyth 5y ago
I would question any evidence of its "much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles." The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true. If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops. The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public.
- nickff 5y ago
  >" The local mechanics are often more skilled and more experienced than their dealership counterparts (simple money explains this). The whole idea every manufacture found some unique solution to complex rules and regulations, or that skilled mechanics cannot buy the equipment needed to fix these cars is just not true." Dealership mechanics are usually more junior (less experienced) than independent mechanics, but they spend all their time working on a much smaller range of models, so they're generally better on those vehicles. Having every special tool, and a great deal of training helps too. >"If nothing else, the number of videos on youtube telling people how to properly fix their vehicles when their dealer gives them some BS diagnostic should indicate the skill level of those dealer shops." In general, the dealers are very good with recent models, and less good with older ones. The people doing youtube videos are often ex-dealership mechanics, who have a lot of experience with older models, and are usually better than the current dealership staff (on the older models). >"The less technology that is only fixable by the company's high priests, the better. If they cannot build serviceable items, then maybe the device is too dangerous to be in public. " There are many devices which are extremely difficult for third parties to service, including aircraft engines. I don't think this necessarily means the items are dangerous, but it does mean you should consider your maintenance schedule and provider when making a purchase decision.
  - 5y ago
magikaram 5y ago
Before OBD2, you were at odds with diagnostic software to troubleshoot vehicular problems. Mechanics, third parties, and owners could not use the onboard computers to resolve issues with the car, or emissions. OBD2 as is required by the NHTSA, enables anyone with a scanner to view the diagnostic information, as well as the state of variables on a running engine. Say what you will about electric cars, but any vehicle with a standard diagnostic port is easily able to be worked on. With modern telematics, and datapoints that the manufacturers have been able to record, giving the ability to access thay information to third party repair and the customers, you can have more choice, and get this, ability to have repairs done. Dealers are not anywhere near always the best place to get a car repaired. In 10 years time, when the new cars age, they will need repair and maintenance that the dealer may overcharge for. If I had to service both of ny cars at the dealership, oil changes would cost me 3 times as much as I can do myself, brakes cost 2 times as much as a local shop can perform. Dealers don't provide a greater service to a vehicle than a standard mechanic shop can provide other than verified manufacturer parts at markup.
- nickff 5y ago
  >"OBD2 as is required by the NHTSA, enables anyone with a scanner to view the diagnostic information, as well as the state of variables on a running engine. Say what you will about electric cars, but any vehicle with a standard diagnostic port is easily able to be worked on." ODB2 reveals only some trouble codes; manufacturer-specific tools will tell you much more about what's going on. >"With modern telematics, and datapoints that the manufacturers have been able to record, giving the ability to access thay information to third party repair and the customers, you can have more choice, and get this, ability to have repairs done." I don't understand what you mean by this, and I've spent many years working in automotive diagnostics. >"Dealers are not anywhere near always the best place to get a car repaired. In 10 years time, when the new cars age, they will need repair and maintenance that the dealer may overcharge for. If I had to service both of ny cars at the dealership, oil changes would cost me 3 times as much as I can do myself, brakes cost 2 times as much as a local shop can perform. Dealers don't provide a greater service to a vehicle than a standard mechanic shop can provide other than verified manufacturer parts at markup. " I agree that dealers aren't always best, but they're generally quite good when the vehicle is less than about 10 years old. They have all the best tools, training, and experience with those vehicles. Independent mechanics (especially those who focus on a few brands) are generally better with older vehicles.
owisd 5y ago
Do the vehicles benefit from specialist tools because the manufacturer has innovated some new piece of tech unique to their company, or have they simply taken off the shelf components and tweaked them just enough that standard tools don't work without adding any actual value? (Nintendo Y-shaped screwheads spring to mind) The answer is probably a combination of the two, so it's always going to be a trade-off.
mysterydip 5y ago
I had to get a couple components on my car replaced recently. The dealer quoted me $6000 for the job. I had it done by a reputable shop instead for $1600.
spicybright 5y ago
Your claim is baseless. But even if we entertain this is true, it puts automakers in the perfect place to rent seek and rake in profits. It takes ownership away from the individual. It's wasteful as perfectly good cars could become un-repairable that would otherwise have a longer life. Plus, if right to repair was enforced for all cars, you can still operate the same way and only get repairs from the dealer. Only cheaper as they'll have to compete with other mechanics now.
kohanz 5y ago
Is the parent OP light gray because of the status of the poster or due to downvotes? If it's the latter, it saddens me that this Reddit-esque behavior is finding footing on HN. You may (vehemently, even) disagree with what the parent post states (I do too), but that should not be a basis to downvote, especially when they stated their POV respectfully.
Volundr 5y ago
> It's not BS. The fact is that it's much cheaper and easier to design cars to be serviced by people who focus on a few models, and have a full suite of tools specifically made for those vehicles Unless I'm missing something nothing you state here is disallowed by the right to repair law. That "suite of tools" you describe just has to be made available to everyone, not just the specialists.
JaimeThompson 5y ago
Then why do dealerships typically charge so much more than other repair shops?

nonbirithm 5y ago

When designing a feature, there could be a new measure that quantifies the degree of reliance on the OEM to repair that feature in case it breaks. In other words, even if the feature is technologically innovative or useful, the manufacturer would need some kind of incentive against implementing it if the ability for a third party to service it is non-existent. The same could be said for software features as well. (Such as: "how many salaried employees would I need to operate such a feature at scale", etc.)

raxxorrax 5y ago

> The data platform that the new law requires to provide the data does not exist and will not exist any time soon This is such a lazy excuse... There would be tons of possible ways to transmit such information. There is no industry standard, but I don't see how that would be needed.

pavon 5y ago

Actually, I agree that providing all that telemetry information to any "mechanic" who asks is a huge privacy concern, and potentially dangerous. However, that really raises the question of why the manufacturers should be trusted with the information themselves. They are collecting data that goes far beyond any legitimate need they have to provide service. In the short term disabling these systems is a completely reasonable way of complying with the law. They weren't designed with the ability to share data with third parties (or even the owner), let alone have a reasonable way for the owner to authenticate who is authorized to access the data. The real test is whether manufacturers implement these features in new cars in ways that comply with the law, of if they continue to try to play hardball. The best solution to that is to introduce more right-to-repair laws in more states or at the federal level, and privacy laws that limit data collection to the minimum needed.