4 ms·

Rob Pike actually defined it exactly this way when it was introduced -- a simpler systems language, in contrast to Java. It's funny -- I actually just watched

Rob Pike actually defined it exactly this way when it was introduced -- a simpler systems language, in contrast to Java. It's funny -- I actually just watched this video yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kj5ApnhPAE

Rochus 5y ago
Is Java really a systems language?
- mustache_kimono 5y ago
  That's not what I said. Pike described golang as a systems language, and specifically contrasted it with Java. Perhaps you should watch the talk.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > That's not what I said. Okay, but it's a pretty reasonable interpretation, right? "Simpler X, in contrast to Y" makes it sound like Y is a less simple X.
    - mustache_kimono 5y ago
      - aozgaa 5y ago
        > a simpler systems language, in contrast to Java. I read this as saying the contrast between go and java is that the former is simpler. The confusion maybe comes about because "simpler" is a comparative adjective (as opposed to, eg, "simple", which is a descriptive adjective), and because there are up to two qualities being contrasted -- simplicity and "being a systems language". Take it or leave it but I personally was a bit confused by the wording.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        > of course we don't think of Java as a systems programming language It's not "of course" when we're in the middle of conversation about different definitions of "systems". > You should watch the video if you want Rob Pike's reasoning as to why golang is a systems language I might do that later, but either way you wrote an ambiguous comment and I don't know why you're lashing out so badly that people try to explain that. Such things happen.
        mustache_kimono 5y ago
        I'm sorry you were confused. Buck up. It'll get better. I promise.
        philosopher1234 5y ago
        I think I agree with the point you are trying to make but I think the form in which you are making it is alienating people.
- twic 5y ago
  "systems language" and "systems programming" are terms whose interpretations vary widely across the industry. At one extreme, it means kernels, drivers, and embedded, the stuff where you need to precisely manipulate bytes with no infrastructure and minimum overhead. At the other extreme, it means any software whose users are other programs rather than people, so API services and so on. My first job was as a "systems engineer", writing database middleware (kind of) in Java. Go is not suitable for the kernels etc kind of systems programming, but it's highly suited to the API services kind.
  - codeflo 5y ago
    Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't know anyone who calls that "systems programming". I'd personally use the term "backend programming".
  - Rochus 5y ago
    In fact, the terms are becoming more and more diluted. "Systems Engineering" is a good example; it actually used to be a well defined discipline (see EIA-632, IEEE 1220, ISO 26702, etc.) until some non-US universities started to use the term for disciplines like system administration or computer network engineering. Similar confusion e.g. exists on the question of whether C is a high- or low-level language. The funny thing is that Go is even used as a low-resource embedded system programming language, e.g. for the micro:bit.
jjtheblunt 5y ago
Wasn't Go essentially Limbo from Bell Labs, like Rob Pike and others who moved to Google? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(programming_language)
- anthk 5y ago
  Go is like what C++ should been long ago, from the creators of C. Ditto with plan9/9front and the original Unix. Now, QT/C++ is the new Motif/C, but not just for Unix, but for doing cross plataform tools everywhere. I think the future will be shipping static Go binaries with GIO everywhere. INB4 "disk space", today's compilers and linkers should strip away all cruft from linking by removing any useless library function.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    > I think the future will be shipping static Go binaries with GIO everywhere. I would like to add a GUI to a little (very little) mysql database updater tool I have in customer hands. GIO is interesting and impressive but I am not as optimistic as you that it will develop into anything big.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Limbo + some touch of Oberon-2

Rochus 5y ago

Is Java really a systems language?

mustache_kimono 5y ago
That's not what I said. Pike described golang as a systems language, and specifically contrasted it with Java. Perhaps you should watch the talk.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > That's not what I said. Okay, but it's a pretty reasonable interpretation, right? "Simpler X, in contrast to Y" makes it sound like Y is a less simple X.
  - mustache_kimono 5y ago
    - aozgaa 5y ago
      > a simpler systems language, in contrast to Java. I read this as saying the contrast between go and java is that the former is simpler. The confusion maybe comes about because "simpler" is a comparative adjective (as opposed to, eg, "simple", which is a descriptive adjective), and because there are up to two qualities being contrasted -- simplicity and "being a systems language". Take it or leave it but I personally was a bit confused by the wording.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      > of course we don't think of Java as a systems programming language It's not "of course" when we're in the middle of conversation about different definitions of "systems". > You should watch the video if you want Rob Pike's reasoning as to why golang is a systems language I might do that later, but either way you wrote an ambiguous comment and I don't know why you're lashing out so badly that people try to explain that. Such things happen.
      - mustache_kimono 5y ago
        I'm sorry you were confused. Buck up. It'll get better. I promise.
        philosopher1234 5y ago
        I think I agree with the point you are trying to make but I think the form in which you are making it is alienating people.
twic 5y ago
"systems language" and "systems programming" are terms whose interpretations vary widely across the industry. At one extreme, it means kernels, drivers, and embedded, the stuff where you need to precisely manipulate bytes with no infrastructure and minimum overhead. At the other extreme, it means any software whose users are other programs rather than people, so API services and so on. My first job was as a "systems engineer", writing database middleware (kind of) in Java. Go is not suitable for the kernels etc kind of systems programming, but it's highly suited to the API services kind.
- codeflo 5y ago
  Maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't know anyone who calls that "systems programming". I'd personally use the term "backend programming".
- Rochus 5y ago
  In fact, the terms are becoming more and more diluted. "Systems Engineering" is a good example; it actually used to be a well defined discipline (see EIA-632, IEEE 1220, ISO 26702, etc.) until some non-US universities started to use the term for disciplines like system administration or computer network engineering. Similar confusion e.g. exists on the question of whether C is a high- or low-level language. The funny thing is that Go is even used as a low-resource embedded system programming language, e.g. for the micro:bit.

jjtheblunt 5y ago

Wasn't Go essentially Limbo from Bell Labs, like Rob Pike and others who moved to Google? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(programming_language)

anthk 5y ago
Go is like what C++ should been long ago, from the creators of C. Ditto with plan9/9front and the original Unix. Now, QT/C++ is the new Motif/C, but not just for Unix, but for doing cross plataform tools everywhere. I think the future will be shipping static Go binaries with GIO everywhere. INB4 "disk space", today's compilers and linkers should strip away all cruft from linking by removing any useless library function.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > I think the future will be shipping static Go binaries with GIO everywhere. I would like to add a GUI to a little (very little) mysql database updater tool I have in customer hands. GIO is interesting and impressive but I am not as optimistic as you that it will develop into anything big.
pjmlp 5y ago
Limbo + some touch of Oberon-2