28 ms·

Show HN: Simula One – Portable Linux VR Computer

• stocknoob 5y ago
  So many people are complaining about price of a first gen enthusiast device. You know the Apple II (~1500 in 1977) is 5k in modern dollars, and sold over 5m units, right? If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap.
  • rvz 5y ago
    > If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap. I don't know why anyone would buy this contraption that costs more than a Oculus / Meta Quest or a HTC Vive and is targeted at consumers. Like you said; it is a 'first gen' which usually means this is an instant don't buy. Even if you wait for it to be cheaper, the use-cases are already limited with the consumers getting frustrated and will just purchase an Oculus VR headset from Meta. The next consumer product that will have a mass adoption like the iPhone, will certainly be AR glasses from either Apple, Google or Meta. Definitely not VR headsets and contraptions like this one which that ship has already sailed.
    • moron4hire 5y ago
      I've been hearing people say "VR is dead, AR has killed it" for the last 10 years straight, all while not knowing anyone using AR past novelty apps, all while enjoying the biggest year for VR. Every. Single. Year.
      • pjmlp 5y ago
        The first time I saw someone using a VR headset, was someone playing Doom with one in 1995. It has been more than 10 years.
        • crtasm 5y ago
          10 years of the claim, not since VR became available.
    • ianbutler 5y ago
      So the Quest 2 sold over 12million headsets in the last year. And over the last few years VR has seen a growth rate of over 20% YOY. I always wonder if when people like you make a comment if you actually look at figures or just go with your gut because you don't like something. I'm guessing the latter. The mass adoption is happening right under your nose, an entire generation of US kids are growing up with VR right now because of the perfect storm of lack of consoles, a pandemic keeping them home and widely available cheap hardware from Meta.
• blah_humbug 5y ago
  >From Iron Man to The Minority Report, our Sci-Fi has been promising us for decades a future of always-on spatial computing and omnipresent screens. This is the Future we deserve. Assuming that this is serious and not parody, then you have a very different vision of a utopian future than I do.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    It's serious (not parody), though I can understand in retrospect why that might be off-putting, and I should probably word the paragraph better. I sometimes watch Sci-Fi movies and focus too much on the technology (forgetting that the entire plot covers some terrible dystopian theme, lol). I'm personally a fan of "Definite Optimism" views of the future.[1] Western culture used to portray technology really positively in Sci-Fi dramas (e.g. Star Trek), and then sometime around the 1970s, our culture flipped to portraying technology mostly under a dystopian point of view. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/vr-and-definite-optimism/ https://simulavr.com/blog/vr-and-definite-optimism/
    • blah_humbug 5y ago
      Sorry, I don't understand how strapping some screens very close to our eyes will bring us back to the halcyon days of pre-1970 (which were absolutely dominated by the discovery of cheap energy in the form of oil and coal, and in the case of the US, the technological boost of fighting a war without the downsides of it being on its own soil). It sounds like what you are pining for is the time when we reaped maximal benefits of the Industrial Revolution but before we realised the repercussions.
      • normie3000 5y ago
        It sounds more like he’s pining for futuristic UIs.
• 999900000999 5y ago
  The pricing is absolutely nuts. If it was $1,000 or so, maybe I'd be open to trying it, But at nearly 3K there's no way I'm risking that much money. If your company goes bankrupt tomorrow, and the headset bricks itself, I'd have no recourse. At the same time, I hope you're able to raise funding or something and get the cost down to $1,000. I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    I understand your concerns about pricing. We made a post earlier this year discussing why our expenses are so high.[1] TLDR: Low economies of scale and high launch costs. With that said, our pricing and specs are still competitive with ultra-premium VR headsets and premium office laptops (which we have essentially combined into one unit). We also have a pricing option to reserve a headset with a partial deposit: pay $1,499 now, and then $1,499 right before we ship (Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target). This allows you to reserve a headset now at a lower price, see more proof throughout the year that we are performing our manufacturing duties diligently (via weekly updates), and then only paying the remainder of the balance ($1,499 + taxes/shipping) once we have the headset fully ready to ship to you. We also just made a discount code for this thread: "DISCOUNT_HN" (limited to 10 for now) which adds an extra $100 off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
    • 999900000999 5y ago
      >(Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target) We'll talk when it actually ships. You do understand 3k is a ton of money right ? The other issue is even if I did pre order , the second you miss a release date I'd file a charge back. Get too many charge backs and payment processors will stop accepting orders for you. To be honest it would make more sense to develop an ultra cheap option, anything 1k or less, and you'll find people ready to take a risk. You might still get in trouble if you miss your ship date though. You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$. Where is the other 2k in markup coming from ?
      • Chris2048 5y ago
• hirundo 5y ago
  George, I'm very interested in your product, but I can only afford such a computer every few years. If I knew that I would receive it and it would work as advertised with reasonable warranty service, I would go ahead and pre-order. But as a startup in a notoriously fragile area, it isn't clear that you can deliver. Can you give me any information that would increase my confidence, or is this something that you would instead recommend to someone who can afford a speculative bet?
  • marcodiego 5y ago
    Looks like a task for pine64.
    • ge96 5y ago
      I ordered Pinephone Pro still waiting... I understand they just had New Year recently. edit: I did get the original PP though so I have faith just not used to buying something, waiting a long time to get it.
      • ge96 5y ago
        shipped 14 business days from order so fulfilled in 15 days (ordered mid feb)
  • kanetw 5y ago
    It's hard to make any guarantees when we're still this early, but I'd say assuming we survive this launch, we'll be able to honor our warranty. We're going to add a two-year warranty to the terms. Of course, it's up to you whether you consider taking that initial risk acceptable.
• WesSouza 5y ago
  It's horrible. It's beautiful. I would never use it. I want one.
• lallysingh 5y ago
  Shop server looks down. The cost is too high for even high-paid engineers. Are these hand-built?
  • moritonal 5y ago
    The URL has www. at the start by accident.
  • DIVx0 5y ago
    looks like a bad link, this works: https://shop.simulavr.com/ https://shop.simulavr.com/
• Freaken 5y ago
  I see people have issues with the price tag, and while it is by no mean cheap, since it's actually a full blown computer AND a VR headset all in one, it is somewhat justified. The computer specs match my Framework laptop and the headset is, on paper, on par or better than other high-end VR headsets (and a miles ahead of my Meta Quest 2 and other consumer-grade VR headsets).
  • survirtual 5y ago
    The standalone tethered headset is $2k — that makes it a significantly higher price than other options, especially given the risk involved. It has amazing specs, but $2k for a tethered headset is way too high. It needs to be below $1000 for the tethered, bring your own compute option.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    We pushed hard on our specs; I appreciate you noticing =] We actually compared the Simula One to the Framework Professional Edition in an earlier post, so the comparison is apt.[1] We have also created a $100 discount code ("DISCOUNT_HN") for this thread to help out somewhat on the price.[2] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
    • nrp 5y ago
      It feels strange to be used as a reference point, but we’ll take it! Like other folks on this thread, I’m interested in seeing what you do with Simula One. I agree that it is the sort of ambitious though likely niche product that is worth testing the wide open future of VR with.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        I like the concept of the Framework, and we're similarly big on being open/repairable/etc.
  • ge96 5y ago
• ianai 5y ago
  Is the computer in the headset? Why? (!!!) Looks like a great way to cause your neck muscles to spasm horribly painfully. If I were designing these, they’d either be completely transparent so AR or the headset would be only the LCD and maybe sensors.
  • Freaken 5y ago
    Actually, it probably isn't that bad if it's well balanced. I own a Meta Quest 2 and I added an external battery at the back of the headstrap because it helps balancing the headset while playing, preventing it from dropping on my nose too much.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    The compute pack is detachable, but leaving it in the back of the headset is good for front/rear balance. Most gaming headsets on the market today are very front-weight biased. Our headset supports an "AR Mode" with two front-facing high-res RGB cameras.
    • ianai 5y ago
      Did you consult any physiologists? Anyone who knows what’s acceptable to those muscles? There’s a reason eye glasses use lightweight materials. Then all the various treatments to make the lenses visually clear and comfortable.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Good idea. We're mostly working off experiences with other headsets and e.g. bike helmets here, but having harder data would be good.
        • ianai 5y ago
          It’s a cool idea. I remember dreaming of this sort of thing in HS. I’m sure there are medical professionals who’d be able to inform you for a consultation. Perhaps even wiring up some volunteers to see muscular activity with various weights. Or yeah maybe helmet design has tread this well.
• moritonal 5y ago
  Your site doesn't mention the weight or the battery life. I guess the real answer is in the dog-food. Does your team use VCRs to develop it?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    The software side does; there's videos of George working on Simula in Simula. Trickier for the EE/ME side as it's all Windows.
    • georgewsinger 5y ago
      RE weight: we're targeting 800g (balanced evenly between front headset/rear compute pack).[1] This shouldn't be more straining than a Valve Index. RE battery: our target is 3 hrs (for reference: the Quest has a 2-3 hour battery life). Here's the link David was referring to: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI. It shows me dog-fooding Simula's software on the HTC Vive. [1] This is still a preliminary number, which might change as we make tradeoffs in battery life vs. thermal solution vs. weight.
      • GordonS 5y ago
        What about heat? If I'm wearing an entire computer on my head, I would have thought it would get pretty hot, especially if I do CPU intensive work?
        • kanetw 5y ago
          It gets toasty but we're including this in the thermal solution-- compute pack on the back of your head separate from the rest of the headset, airflow going away from your head, maybe even additional insulation if there's too much conductive heat transfer through the padding.
      • agrippanux 5y ago
        The Quest doesn't have a 2-3 hour battery life if you're doing anything past staring at the welcome lobby. A bit over an hour for most applications is standard. Source: I am VP Eng of ForeVR Games, we make games for the Quest
• mijoharas 5y ago
  Hey George, I think you need to remove the `www` from your shop link above. This link (found from the page) seems to work fine[0]. [0] https://shop.simulavr.com/ https://shop.simulavr.com/
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Yes, this was totally my mistake. I'm unable to edit the post now but emailed dang to see if he can fix it.
  • dang 5y ago
    Fixed. Thanks!
• survirtual 5y ago
  Edit: shop had the wrong link At $3,000+, you are leaving very little room for people who want to see you succeed to support you. Best of luck.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We're using Shopify and it's up on my end. Looks like George somehow added a www. -- the URL is https://shop.simulavr.com https://shop.simulavr.com
    • survirtual 5y ago
      My mistake, okay. Edit: standalone is ~$2k. At these kinds of prices, will have to wait it out and see if they can deliver. The price has to come down somehow to make this more readily available / accelerate use.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        We have a headset-only version priced at $2k. This is roughly comparable to other higher end headsets on the market and includes AR cameras
        • survirtual 5y ago
          I get it, making something like this isn’t cheap. I hope you can pull it off, VR computing is the dream. I would say this might necessitate an investor injecting liquidity and selling the headset below margins to generate a community initially, while also putting manufacturing pressure on you all to find creative ways to lower cost without compromising quality. Hate to say it, but at $2k min for a tethered device, I would just go with a Quest for $300 or a Hololens for $3000.
          • charcircuit 5y ago
            No one can compete with the Quest on price. VR is a somewhat expensive hobby and by being a part of it you understand that things will me expensive.
• DIVx0 5y ago
  This is a really interesting project I hope it succeeds and future iterations are either more affordable OR gains so much traction that its easy to justify the cost. At this price point I could only talk myself into it if the Simula was my primary computer which I think I'd have a hard time using it as such. Anyway, I am probably one amongst many who are watching this space waiting for experience reports and emerging ecosystems from braver early adopters.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thanks for your support. Though our goal is for people to replace their PCs/Laptops with VR Computers as their primary computing device, we recognize this is a tall order and will require a lot of hard work and proof over time for people to see that they're actually better. We're expecting review units to be available in a few months.
    • barrenko 5y ago
      Good luck, I've dreamt about this as a kid.
  • zmmmmm 5y ago
    > if the Simula was my primary computer It basically includes a whole computer. I am curious if one can simply plug in a regular monitor somehow and use it that way. If so, it would be something of a hedge against it being a useless brick if the VR part doesn't work out. Compact computers are kind of fun for lots of other reasons.
    • kanetw 5y ago
      Yes, the compute pack has several DP outs and can be used without the headset.
• mdrzn 5y ago
  This is extremely well done and promising for the future of mass adoption for VR. Congrats! I still have a Rift S and I'm not in the linux universe, but this is very very interesting.
• pingpongrandom 5y ago
  Casual project follower here: I really want to use this device for remoting into other machines, so I can use my work computer via Simula - does the native Simula OS allow for this?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Sure, you can use Parsec or something, but you'll only get an Immersed-style "virtual desktop". Having full separate window transmission would be more difficult/impossible for non-Linux targets.
    • pingpongrandom 5y ago
      That's great to know - thanks!
  • ryukafalz 5y ago
    It's just Linux and runs normal Linux applications, so yes. If you just use e.g. a VNC client your work machine's display would be in one window, but if you can find remote desktop software that displays remote windows as local windows I'd imagine that would work fine too with Simula. (I seem to recall Citrix can do this, though I'm not sure if there are any FOSS/less enterprise-y options that do the same.) EDIT: Actually I think Xpra does this? Not sure if it'll run on Wayland, or if X11 apps work in Simula via XWayland. If so though, that might work.
    • kanetw 5y ago
      Xpra might be able to do it.
  • downrightmike 5y ago
    You can do that with any computer with pikvm and tinypilot https://tinypilotkvm.com/ https://tinypilotkvm.com/ https://pikvm.org/ https://pikvm.org/
• gfodor 5y ago
  Wow. How is it so cheap? Xerox Alto was way more expensive in inflation adjusted usd.
• 4ggr0 5y ago
  I know, people are already talking about a price, but I want to add my perspective as well. I was subscribed to the Newsletter, read every blog post and generally was pretty hyped for the Simula One. Up until I read the blog post about the pricing. That's when I unsubscribed the newsletter and forgot about SimulaVR. Sure, other AR/VR headsets cost as much, but for me its just too expensive. I can't spend nearly $3k for a headset I haven't even tried. This product is already targetted to a niche without considering the price, add in the pricing and that niche gets even smaller. Basically, the only people who will buy these are rich silicon valley nerds. Wish SimulaVR the best of luck, but for the moment it seems like I can't really support them.
  • nsilvestri 5y ago
    It's a fairly high-end headset attached to a compoarably powerful laptop, and the cost reflects the combined cost of both parts. It's expensive but the price makes sense.
    • musingsole 5y ago
      > attached to a compoarably powerful laptop This is the part that doesn't make sense. I don't need a computer from a product manufacturer focused on something else. I already have 10+ computers within reach; 3 of them can stream just fine to my Oculus Quest. Really, is the only way to create a VR PC to eschew all of that in favor of some controlled hardware ecosystem? I don't/won't buy it.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Several reasons: 1. You need a dedicated PC for this, or the friction of having to set everything up will lead to you never using it. 2. VR on Linux is a compatibility nightmare. Focusing on one configuration as our baseline makes things so much simpler.
        • musingsole 5y ago
          1. Okay, I have several candidates. 2. Ok. Welcome to life in Linux? If these justifications were serious, I should have the option to buy just the headset and navigate the compatibility problems if I chose. We're talking about Linux after all. Having this one option and hiding behind the excuses I've seen indicate they've jumped the shark sooner to consumerism than I would've hoped.
• moron4hire 5y ago
  As a VR developer, I'm super excited about your device. I work for a foreign language instruction service, where we teach adults in diplomatic and security service settings. We've built a VR app that lets our students meet with their instructors remotely and practice language skills in culturally-appropriate settings. In that capacity, I've done a lot of pricing out of VR kits and evaluation of devices. It became pretty clear early on that A) our students need the simplest possible setup that we can ship to them, B) the market is still too volatile and the current dominant players are too platform-oriented to commit fully to any one headset, and C) we need to be able to iterate rapidly, on our own, away from any app store. Balancing all of these requirements eventually led us to building a WebXR app. It runs pretty much everywhere (any VR headset that matters[0], desktop, mobile[1]). We had high hopes for the Pico Neo and the HTC Vive Focus, but we primarily target the Meta Quest 2. Mozilla was the biggest factor in that decision to focus on the Quest 2, because they really dropped the ball with Firefox Reality. Firefox Reality's last update was over a year ago, despite many desperately needed fixes for major show-stopper defects. Stuff like not being able to handle non-default IPD without massively distorting the image. Stuff like not being able to anti-alias the framebuffer the VR context uses. Stuff like janky ImageBitmap support forcing all of our texture pre-processing into the main render thread. Lesser stuff like being based on the pre-standards WebVR API, which lacked all but the most basic of VR features. Quest's Oculus Browser is based on Chromium, with support for some experimental WebXR features that drastically improve the experience such as the Layers extension and the high refresh rate support. The lack of a serious browser competitor to Chrome across the entire market--but especially in a greenfield market like VR, when Mozilla has Hubs as a revenue-earning concern--has been the single biggest impediment to our ability to be truly cross-platform. But now Igalia has picked up the torch with Wolvic, so we're looking forward to seeing where that goes. Wanting to stay out of any app stores and not wanting to require our users to have to share any data (see above on who we serve, Facebook login is a hard stop), we bought 35 headsets through the Oculus for Business program over the course of last year. Then with the Meta announcement Facebook also announced they are shutting down Oculus for Business. So needless to say, this has been a very rocky journey. An open source, high-end, standalone, not-tied-to-a-platform VR headset can't come soon enough. I'm curious if you have any plans on making any lower spec models at a lower price point? I've found that, given all our needs, we can't get any combo of kit together for less than roughly $1000, after you add up all the licensing and accessory costs. We're really comfortable spending that amount of money per headset. PCVR is a no-go for us--we already have enough problems getting linguists to figure out how to use the Quest 2 that I'm not going to toss a tethered VR setup at them--but if we were to go there it'd be around $2000. We'll probably be able to get by with our current fleet of headsets for at least a year, but at that point we're going to be looking at depreciating them out. We have enough to cover about 10% of our student body at any one time, which is more than enough now, but my hope is to grow the app and start encouraging instructors to use VR as well. We basically choose the number of headsets we have based on how much we can afford, and then we push it out to students based on how many we have available, so any reduction in price is directly transferable to growth for us. [0] I don't know of any currently that don't have some browser support available, though see my notes on Firefox later. [1] Minus iOS, for well-known reasons, but that might be getting better soon. Not that it matters, nobody is using it that way.
• jensensbutton 5y ago
  I'm curious about the typing experience. Is the Simula One able to bring the keyboard into the virtual environment or do you need to rely on touch typing? I know Meta partnered with Logitech on a special keyboard (K830) to try and solve for this. How are you thinking about it?
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Our VRC supports an "AR Mode" via two front-facing RGB cameras, which allows you to see your keyboard. There's a snazzy demonstration of it our main sales video. Here's a more down to earth video of us testing it last summer in our compositor: https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg Note this is just an early test with a single fish eye lens (grainy; distortion not corrected). Our actual AR mode is much higher quality than this.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• nonplus 5y ago
  I see a lot of comments on the pricing of this hardware. It's going to be more expensive (for the end user) to build a headset (and FOSS window manager) than a product like the quest. Meta has a suite of products bringing in capitol by selling user PII. Valve has a distribution platform to offset costs. If you want to see a product that is open end to end and is not part of an ecosystem selling your information, then it has to be funded. I realize most of the people reading this don't want a moral argument for spending $2k-$4k on a HMD, but thats what I am offering. We should have multiple openXR compatible headsets to choose from, and specialized window managers that 'just work' in VR. Fund the FOSS projects you want to see in the world so others will follow.
  • emptysongglass 5y ago
    But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive. Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development.
    • gorjusborg 5y ago
      It is definitely too expensive for broad adoption, but maybe it doesn't need broad adoption? I might buy one if I could find a way to experience it first.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        We'll be able to have reviewable prototype units in a few months. Depending on how many critical components (displays, primarily) we have we might be able to set up some way to test it for non-reviewers.
        • gorjusborg 5y ago
          Nice! Based on your wording, seems like you are involved with the project? If so, I love the idea you all are chasing. As a software developer, I've often thought about how great it would be to be able to take my setup with me without having to compromise on display. The current generation HMD is obviously not the end-game everyone is looking for, but you all obviously get the paradigm.
• RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
  Is it possible to get prescription lens inserts? This would make a massive improvement for usability and comfort of anyone who wears glasses.
  • nonplus 5y ago
    I'm not on the team but yes, they will take lens inserts; there has been some discussion on this on discord. https://discord.com/channels/603723949586644997/603723949586645005/945021390938050631 https://discord.com/channels/603723949586644997/603723949586...
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Yes: 1. We have up to 17mm of space for glasses for casual use 2. We're going to be compatible with prescription lens inserts out of the box, e.g. Reloptix. 3. It's possible that we'll include diopter adjustment as well
    • RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
      That's great news! Is the idea that the headset is physically compatible with the shape of lens inserts for some existing mainstream headset, or will you be partnering with Reloptix and other vendors? It would be very helpful to have this information somewhere prominently in your marketing materials.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Talking with Reloptix right now about the details. We definitely need to put it more prominently somewhere (god, marketing is hard)
• drcode 5y ago
  I love that they fully embrace the "sitting at the coffee shop with my VR headset" aesthetic. I'm totally ready to support this vision and preorder one and let my freak flag fly at my local coffee shop!
  • gorjusborg 5y ago
    They should also put a large dart board looking target on the headset.
    • ge96 5y ago
      Yean unfortunately I would not use this thing in public, I think it would just get stolen. I have a $2K camera (body only) that I'm afraid to use in public, seems silly I know. But I think I'll try to use my Index more see if I can get into that idea of using VR for work. I hope they figured out the blurry edges of text when you don't look at it just right, maybe that's a lower resolution display issue. I'm interested in the concept but it's definitely expensive for me at the current cost/mental mindset.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        The blurry edges is both an optics and display resolution issue, and also potentially a fit adjustment thing. Our optics are currently in prototype production but we'll have the first units in a few weeks. Can post some through the lens shots then and check for any issues like that.
        • ge96 5y ago
          > Can post some through the lens shots then and check for any issues like that. That sounds good. Good luck, I've subscribed to one of your guys YT channels to keep up. edit: ehh I've lost $2.5K on crypto already, I'll just do the 50% pre-order for this.
  • throwoutway 5y ago
    They do fully embrace it! I almost laughed at the comment: > It can sometimes just feel weird working on sensitive or private things out in the open. ... all while the GIF next to it seems to have people glaring at the weird person with the VR headset on. Clever marketing hidden way down there. But who knows, maybe this is the future if Zuck throws billions at it.
• nbzso 5y ago
  I have a problem with the blue light from the screens. Pushing this light source close to my eyes is utter madness. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6288536/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6288536/
  • moron4hire 5y ago
    The risk of blue light from computer screens has been vastly, vastly overstated.
    • hdevarajan 5y ago
      Might you have references ?
      • stonogo 5y ago
        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/opo.12406 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/opo.12406 and https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)31368-5 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)... and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29404551/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29404551/ aaaand https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29786830/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29786830/
• Symmetry 5y ago
  I've got an IPD of 77 and I'm extremely grateful to see a good VR headset that supports how far apart my eyes are.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Nice! We're big on being compatible with as many people as reasonably possible, as we've been annoyed by that in other headsets in the past. * Technically, there's another +-2mm of allowable eye center x/y/z movement that we've reserved for the headset moving around + eye relief. So in theory the maximum IPD would be closer to 81mm, but that puts your right on the edge of reaching our target picture quality.
• japesj 5y ago
  Looks like an interesting proposition! Definitely would like more information about how this sits on the face of a glasses wearer (or how prescription lenses can anchor into the headset). Also, there's no details on how this is powered, but given it's use case outdoors, it's suggests it's battery powered. What's the expected battery life?
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    RE power: Yes, it's battery powered. Our target is 3 hours (for reference: the Quest has a 2-3 hour battery life). RE glasses & lens inserts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442633 RE ergonomics and comfort: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745 Possibly also of interest to you as well. Hope this answers your questions. We appreciate your interest.
• shahbaby 5y ago
  Price is okay. As a developer anything that can help with my day to day work is worth investing in. This device could potentially replace the need for high end ergonomic chairs and standing desks.
• shafyy 5y ago
  Awesome project! I'm a regular Quest 2 user, and also use it for work sometimes. For me, the biggest drawback of the Quest 2 is that it gets uncomfortable after a while. How do you address the ergonomics problem? Compared to a Quest 2, is it more comfortable? What about collaboration? Is there something like shared workspaces planned? Or does it support a virtual cam? When do you plan to ship it (maybe I missed it on your website?)
  • moron4hire 5y ago
    BTW, I've found the BOBO VR M2 replacement strap for the Quest 2 to be a godsend for comfort. Just wish it had integrated headphones.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    We are aiming for a small batch of early units to ship in Q4 '22 (prioritizing Founders Edition units and early buyers). We aim to ship the bulk of our headsets in Q1 '23. RE ergonomics and comfort: our headset is shooting for a split weight distribution between the front and the year, with good thermal management. - Most of the components in the front of our headset are low-power, which helps against heat. - Our detachable compute unit is in the back of the headset, with airflow going away from your head, so heat there shouldn't be too noticeable. (Contrast with the Quest, which, e.g. has everything in the front of the headset). - We are looking into active cooling for the front of our headset regardless, in order to sustain long sessions and prevent facial sweat due to low circulation.
    • tomComb 5y ago
      That sounds good, particularly the "split weight distribution" but never-the-less I'm concerned about the weight of your unit. I've seen designs that split off the main battery pack for added flexibility and weight management. The Vive Flow has other issues that will probably hold it back, but the way they handle the battery is great.
    • shafyy 5y ago
      Thanks! Sounds great. I hope you'll be able to get enough presales.
• d--b 5y ago
  The gif with the guy keeping the device on while being handed his coffee made me cringe. AR mode why not, but not at the expense of actual human interactions!
  • anentropic 5y ago
    That gif is crying out to become a meme...
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We were discussing a way to flip up the headset a while ago. I'm not sure if we have the resources to put it in right now, but it would be cool.
    • d--b 5y ago
      I think you should change it with someone who receives a text message for 2FA or something like that.
    • losvedir 5y ago
      Just gotta put googly eyes on the front.
  • psanford 5y ago
    Everything about that gif is a lie. There is no way you will be able to drink comfortably from a coffee cup with that headset on (just like its not comfortable to do so with an oculus). I like how the clip cuts just at the point where he would bang the cup against the headset. But really its the lack of disdain on all the other people's faces that makes it painfully unrealistic.
    • bee_rider 5y ago
      It is possible to drink in VR, you just have to get the motion right. But it is something I'd do with a beer rather than a hot coffee.
• 3np 5y ago
  Are you considering accepting payments in some form of cryptocurrency? Would love to preorder.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Yeah, discussing this rn but it's likely.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    We are now accepting crypto payments via Coinbase Commerce. At shop checkout, select "coinbase commerce".
• dmitrygr 5y ago
  Name collision with an existing and useful tool: https://www.nongnu.org/simulavr/ https://www.nongnu.org/simulavr/
• losvedir 5y ago
  Very interesting! I'm sort of baffled at all the comments here talking about how the price is too high. I feel like you don't see those sort of comments when the new Apple MBP's are announced or whatever (and if I understand, this is a computer + monitor). Maybe it's just because the posting time is a bit early and so all those San Francisco developers dripping with cash aren't up yet. One quick question I didn't see answered in the video or on the home page: what's the accommodation distance? Normally I think my eyes would get fatigued if it's too close, but if this is meant for working on office-type stuff, then I suppose you'd want it to be pretty close to a normal monitor distance away.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    In the region of 2 meters or so? Going off memory here, but something like that.
• EvanAnderson 5y ago
  Is the intention, down the road, to sell new "compute packs" to allow for upgrades? Is the interface between the HMD and the compute sufficiently engineered and featureful to allow that to actually happen? Similar to a camera system w/ interchangeable lenses, I'd be more apt to buy into this ecosystem if I knew that I could keep my HMD (w/ prescription inserts, perhaps custom-cut padding, etc) but change out the "compute" at a later time. What's the battery replacement "story"? Can the unit run with an external power source without a functioning internal battery?
  • chaosharmonic 5y ago
    Curious about this too, as well as if the pack is a single unit or a set of standard components that you can upgrade individually.
    • kanetw 5y ago
      It's a set of standard components with some custom stuff: * Intel NUC Compute Element (CPU+RAM) * Custom heatsink/case * Custom carrier board for the compute element * M.2 NVMe SSD * Battery is still ongoing, but it'll most likely be custom. At least all custom components will be available from us down the line. Not sure down to which granularity (e.g. IC vendors might not like it if we sell ICs directly), but as granular as possible.
      • chaosharmonic 5y ago
        Cool. Are there any plans in the future to ship non-Intel options?
        • kanetw 5y ago
          Not for this version, but definitely for subsequent ones-- assuming we have the volumes to make AMD consider us.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    1. Correct. We want users to be able to buy a new HMD and plug in their old compute pack, or a new compute pack and plug it into their old HMD. The compute pack itself is also upgradable (we're based off Intel's NUC Compute Elements, so it's easy to upgrade to a new CPU for example). Component-level upgradability in the HMD itself is more difficult, but not impossible. There's a solid amount of breathing room and things are modular, so you could e.g. replace the cameras or the display/optics assembly etc. 2. Battery replacement: It'll be able to run off a USB-PD power adapter and the battery, while internal, will be easily user-replacable.
• Xevi 5y ago
  What does the tethered version weigh? My biggest gripe with the Oculus Quest 2 is how heavy it is. If the tethered version of the Simula One is considerably lighter, then I'm interested.
• danielmarkbruce 5y ago
  If you were guaranteed to sell 100k units, what could you price the standalone at?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    100k? 2k should be doable without compromising on the specs.
    • danielmarkbruce 5y ago
      Is there some number of units where you could hit $1k on all in cost per unit?
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Not with this hardware.
• Mockapapella 5y ago
  Super excited about this. Ordered one seconds after the shop went up. Being able to have greater than desktop levels of screen space with the same mobility as a laptop is such an attractive feature that I'm really looking forward to taking advantage of.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thank you so much for your support! We feel an immense responsibility to deliver on our promise over the course of the year, and look forward to updating you on our progress through our weekly updates.
• 71a54xd 5y ago
  If this is the future of work and productivity - I'm ready to opt out.
• lallysingh 5y ago
  This looks like a decent deal looking deeper into it. Things that weren't obvious on first pass: (1) The VR specs are much higher than consumer level. I suspect this is what makes it reasonable to read text on it. The comparison headset is this: https://varjo.com/products/aero/ https://varjo.com/products/aero/ (They named it, but didn't google it) (2) They said "VR Computer" but don't define the term. They mean that it's a full PC with a headset instead of a regular display. Oddly they don't include a mouse or keyboard. My feedback for Simula one: (0) The value proposition here is (a) the included equipment and (b) the software. They together have to justify the price at some level. (1) You have to really push the point that this is a full computer, not another headset. I suggest you include a keyboard/mouse, and include it in the pictures with the headset (the pictures with just the headset, not the ones with the people). Perhaps a keyboard with a trackpad. (2) Show that the headset is substantially higher-spec than the consumer ones. Show a comparison chart. (3) Dump the AR coffee shop video. Show AR in a home office. Don't assume/require that your customers are that VR gun-ho. (4) Show more than a bunch of shells in the VR screenshots. I can alt-tab as fast as I can move my head, with less work. If this is your underlying value proposition, it sucks. I'm sorry. If you have something more interesting, like a combined VR/app environment, then it can work. (4.1) Is there some useful interactions between 3D visualization and high-quality small-text rendering? If you have good VR/3D developer stories, then this can work. (5) Simula One - is it Ubuntu with a 3d window manager and custom rendering stack? Does it do anything else? Does it just make a (claustrophobic) shell of windows around the user in VR? (5.1) Are there any integrations with anything? Like https://blog.jupyter.org/ipygany-jupyter-into-the-third-dimension-29a97597fc33 https://blog.jupyter.org/ipygany-jupyter-into-the-third-dime... ipygany? (5.2) What do you expect people to do with it? Is
  • drcode 5y ago
    The coffee shop video is the sole reason I purchased it. Not that I'd really ever use it that way, but I want to live in a future where I could in principle do so without shame LOL
    • lallysingh 5y ago
      Actually I'd like to see AR mode when outdoors!
• rileyphone 5y ago
  Interesting, I don't know how I feel about replacing desktops/laptops with VR but it's been around 5 years since I've been in VR. Recently, I finished reading "Dawn of a New Everything" by Jaron Lanier, one of the pioneers of VR that brought the first commercial headset to market in the early 80s at VPL. In that era, the hardware wasn't nearly powerful to maintain any kind of fidelity (I think this was before even graphics cards were a thing) and the VR sets themselves cost ~$70000, but some of the things he mentions doing are still absent today. Phenotropic software, as I first encountered in [0], could be conceived of as maximum encapsulation in VR, where instead of writing code one interfaces with virtual objects, or builds objects to do so, etc. In the book he claims they were developing their software this way in the 80s, but there aren't any surviving examples. In any case I think it's a fascinating research direction. At the very least VR should lead us away from the teletype based interfaces we work in today. Alongside headsets, VPL was known for the Data Glove, a peripheral which I feel is lacking in the modern VR ecosystem. Using a QWERTY keyboard in VR is almost some cruel joke, and the modern "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics. I don't know who, but someone is going to come up with the next great human interface device for VR. Perhaps it will even be tongue oriented, which Lanier points out is one of the most controllable muscles. Anyways, I'm excited for the Simula One, though it's well beyond my price point. We definitely need more open hardware that can be built on, especially if it's an all-in-one product like the Quest. Good luck! [0] https://www.edge.org/conversation/jaron_lanier-why-gordian-software-has-convinced-me-to-believe-in-the-reality-of-cats https://www.edge.org/conversation/jaron_lanier-why-gordian-s...
  • ge96 5y ago
    > "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics Side note: Voidstar Labs on YT was able to make this glove that had gesture tracking, compressed the ML model and fit into a Teensy. So maybe a light weight set of gloves that can track a qwerty-based typing on any surface or midair could be something (without visual tracking).
• roughly 5y ago
  Man, what has HAPPENED to this place? I'm the biggest curmudgeon in the room, I'll have six feet of dirt on my face before I agree to use this daily, but damn, folks, this IS cool. Everyone complains about boring stagnating consumer tech, locked-down hardware, and Mark Zuckerberg making a real go at personally stalking every single person on the planet - this is the _exact opposite of that_. This is high-end, incredibly weird, deeply niche hardware running open-source software. Yes, it costs a lot - that's the cost of not making another shitty piece of spyware-laden consumer bullshit. You're not gonna buy it? Cool, I get it. But my god, not everything has to appeal to the whole fucking market. That kind of thinking is why every damn car on the road is exactly the same shitty crossover as every other one. George, David, this is rad. Kudos for building it, kudos for selling it, and good luck to you and your team - I sincerely hope you succeed, because the world needs more of your kind of weird.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Thank you!
  • gfodor 5y ago
    Yep, agree 100%. Few hackers remain on hacker news.
    • echelon 5y ago
      > Few hackers remain on hacker news. I don't think that's true at all. Think of all the people who are simply choosing not to post. And the nearly unlimited supply of "Show HN" hackery we see on a daily basis.
  • necrotic_comp 5y ago
    Agreed 100%. I saw this and immediately fell in love. This is incredible and I'm super stoked to see how it comes out.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thank you for the kind words. Even if VR computers aren't for everyone, we promise to keep things weird.
• cardosof 5y ago
  This is the coolest way I've seen to have my mind focused on work 24/7 even while I'm laying down resting. If my employer gives me one of those I'll quit on the spot but I want to buy one (secretly) to try it, damn.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Glad you're intrigued =] Supine computing is massively underrated, but often requires expensive desks or time-intensive DIY setups (that aren't portable).[1] VR computing opens this up as one of its additional use cases. [1] https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/ https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
• fmos 5y ago
  Interesting. Thanks for the "Show"! I'm still pretty new to VR and experimenting with a Quest 2 I recently bought out of curiosity really (the tiny price helps; as I'm not planning any extensive/real use, I don't feel like being very valuable product myself). Anyway, you might want to consider adding your device to the Comparison on Wikipedia? [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual_reality_headsets#Upcoming_devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual_reality_...
• sleight42 5y ago
  In the before-times, this would’ve been life-altering for devs who would frequently travel by plane. Pre-pandemic, remember computering in economy class? You were lucky if you could see your laptop screen! With this gadget, your screen is all around you and your keyboard can literally be on your lap.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Agreed =] Another benefit of VRCs is that they allow you to work more privately, which is also useful in planes. I don't know if I'm just weird, but I've always found it unnerving to work on a laptop in economy class where people can just glance over at my screen. (Even if I'm not even working on anything that private or sensitive). VRCs mean nobody can see what you're working on except you.
• renewiltord 5y ago
  Holy shit, this is fucking cool, guys. I would love one. I might just buy one. It’s just the sticker shock that’s holding me back but this is fresh tech so I can understand the price point. Congrats on releasing! By the way, I think I found the AR interactions sort of strange. I think most people will have some sort of trouble talking to an unresponsive face (the problem with the eyes covered is that they’re so expressive in people). Since I ride a motorcycle as my primary transport, I sometimes just leave my helmet on so I can walk up to my office without needing to switch to a mask. I find that people find it harder to talk to me unless I compensate hard with gestures and full body expressions. The upshot of this whole thing was that I was wondering if even the most mild form of expressing something, like say a 64x24 LED display on the front headplate that lit up in eye shapes to express friendliness would help. Or perhaps it can’t be helped; and we just have to do the same thing we do where we take earbuds out to say “I’m paying attention”. I’m sure you guys considered all this. Very curious to see what you thought about.
  • renewiltord 5y ago
    Oh, one more thing. This thing is close to the getup the Utopians have in Too Like The Lightning and I’ve always wanted that. God, I am so close to buying it.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We have a LED display baseline in the founders edition, and it might trickle down into the base edition if we have enough sales. Definitely something we thought about in terms of expressiveness.
• twmiller 5y ago
  ...does the video of the guy in the coffee shop remind anyone else of Neil Stephenson's description of 'gargoyles' in Snow Crash?
• RajT88 5y ago
  Price is too rich for my blood, but I will be watching with interest how it goes. I have tried working in VR a few times with my WMR headset and never found a setup which was effective. This looks pretty good! I would love to give it a try first of course.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thanks for your interest. We're looking forward to review units shipping out in the next few months, which might help you get a sense for how the product performs by real testers. We also will be sending our weekly updates showcasing the progress of our headset development (you can subscribe here if you're interested: https://newsletter.simulavr.com/ https://newsletter.simulavr.com/). RE pricing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454 Which WMR headset did you try? The main improvement our headset will likely have over your previous experience is a significantly higher PPD/pixel density (which helps text become legible). The exception is if you tried the HoloLens, which has a fairly decent PPD (but a very low FoV).
    • RajT88 5y ago
      Samsung Odyssey+. My main gripe was I could not find good virtual desktop software which was compatible with WMR which could get out of its own way.
• jayd16 5y ago
  I'd be interested to see some real hand tracking and passthrough. How warped is the passthrough video and what is the hand tracking FOV? In my experience a lot of these headsets forget I'll want to interact with things not directly in the center of the screen. Text comparison image is kind of annoying. More zoomed in and more favorable angle for the good side. Why isn't this a pixel perfect comparison?
• devwastaken 5y ago
  I think this is really cool, however I view VR headsets like monitors. I want them light, cool, and relocatable. I would imagine it would be cheaper to have this as two units. The headset, and "the box". The box does all the fun stuff and sends it wirelessly to the headset. Use a hardware compressor/decompress and a wifi 6e chip. Really that's all I want, a headset that is comfy, stays cool, great lenses, and can be streamed to. My quest 2 can do this but it is not comfy, cool, and has god ray problems.
  • vbuterin 5y ago
    Isn't the reason why this is typically not done that VR giving a good experience is very low-latency-dependent, and it's very hard to make wireless connections have an ultra-low latency?
    • kanetw 5y ago
      Yeah, pretty much. I think you can mitigate it a bit with clever tricks, but it's a lot of extra effort we'd rather not deal with this early on. Also, bandwidth is the big blocker. Compression adds latency and reduces quality, and the amount of data we're pushing is really high (27Gbps uncompressed)
• sitzkrieg 5y ago
  sounds impressive. anyone complaining about price has clearly never looked at pimax headsets lol
• yewenjie 5y ago
  I have been keeping an eye on SimulaOS for sometime and I am glad that they finally have a real hardware!
• 2fast4you 5y ago
  I've been following Simula for awhile and I'm super happy to see the first pre-orders! You're doing some amazing work!
• bee_rider 5y ago
  Well, I don't have the money now, but Q4 '22 is a while away. So this is the first newsletter I've ever signed up for. Any text thoughts on text inputs while mobile? I've actually got a split keyboard like you show in use while standing, but that looks a little janky. Maybe we all need to learn how to use twiddlers.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thanks for signing up for our newsletter. RE the text input issue: I've thought about this a lot. Options: 1. BCI. This is the holy grail. Ideally, something which could absorb 20,000 inputs (or approximately the number of words in the English language) with extremely high accuracy. 2. Voice control. Some hackers have gotten voice programming to work with sophisticated setups. Not ideal when you need to be quiet. 3. Twiddler (& twiddler-like solutions). These are cool, but the problem with them is that seem to cap out at ~60wpm (also take a while to learn how to use). 4. Attaching a keyboard to yourself. This is the most short-term viable option, but yeah isn't long-term ideal. (In particular since it limits us to ~100wpm, which isn't very good). It also requires you to be touch-type proficient, which not everyone is.
    • bee_rider 5y ago
      In particular, I think lots of people who think they are touch-proficient will be in for a surprised when they try using a keyboard in VR and can never look at the keyboard. I certainly was. It turns out I mostly don't look, but glance occasionally, and the glances were actually pretty important. Although your passthrough would certainly help there!
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Funny anecdote, we had no AR mode planned originally. Both me and George were completely fine without looking at the keyboard, so it didn't occur to us. Then our ME demo'd the software and couldn't type. We went "oh, fuck, what if someone needs to actually see their keyboard." And, well, we don't do things by half measures, so proper AR passthrough it is.
• lhl 5y ago
  I'm a bit torn, as on the one hand, I'm squarely in the target demo and appreciate the huge amount of work that has gone into the project, and the PPD is really exciting. (back in 2015 I actually started building my own VR workspace software https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtZmCDyEyU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtZmCDyEyU with an Oculus DK2 but shelved it for other projects waiting for better HMD hardware that never arrived). But sadly, I fear that if I ordered a Simula, it might end up years late, half-baked, and sitting on the shelf like my LibreM 5 and many other open source hardware projects I've backed. (Also the ergonomics of the HMD really makes me a iffy on whether it can be worn comfortably for extended periods.) I also think it's also somewhat bad timing, since HMD hardware releases are finally picking up. Panasonic's MeganeX, which uses 2560x2560 120Hz micro-OLEDs, is finally being released in the spring for <$1000 after being first shown 2 years ago (and there seem to be lots of similar micro-OLED HMDs in the pipeline from various Chinese manufacturers). Also, even though the PPD is much lower, there's stuff like the Lynx R1 coming out shortly that will also have full OpenXR support, is committed to privacy and staying independent, and has number of things that makes it more useful as a platform for all-day wear and hacking on: an ultra-thin flip-up form factor, 6DoF SLAM, UltraLeap hand tracking, eye tracking, and has already-working overlay AR (w/ 20ms camera-eye pipeline).
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We're aware of the micro OLEDs, but they're not able to provide the picture quality we desire (at least within a reasonable R&D budget). uOLEDs force pancake lenses, which have issues with transmission and ghost images. The Lynx R1 definitely is attractive in its own way. We have all of those specs except for the thinness. We're planning for our AR latency to be sub-frame (<11ms exposure to display photon out), but it needs verification with actual hardware which takes a while.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    That demo you linked to is incredibly advanced & impressive for 2015. Thanks for sharing. Agreed there are definitely some cool headsets about to be released (both the Lynx and the MeganeX). I wish these projects well. Any successful VR headset (even gaming headsets) lift the whole industry and interest level up for everyone else. And it's also great for consumers, who get more choice. The niche we're attempting to carve is 100% VR computing focused. When you preorder our headset, you're signing up to get something that "just works" out of the box specifically for this use case (without any further hacking required). We're also leaning as much as possible on premium specs, which we need to power the clearest and most readable text (which is super important for long working sessions). Finally, I totally understand your concerns about backing a project that leads to a never-shipped product. We are committed to sending out weekly updates throughout the course of this project, and are aiming to have review units finished in a few months. Perhaps we can earn your trust over time, or after our first batch of headsets ship. If you change your mind in the interim, you (or anyone else who reads this) can use the discount code "DISCOUNT_HN" to get $100 off today. We also have a partial deposit option ($1,499 now; $1,499 before the headset ships) which allows people to spread the cost of the headset over time. This allows you to reserve a headset now for lower than MSRP ($3,500), but not pay the full amount until you see more proof of our progress.
• neiman1 5y ago
  Super cool, love it. Is it possible to make a version that plugs into the back of my head?
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    This will be featured with the Simula Two (Matrix Edition).
• vbuterin 5y ago
  Amazing work! I preordered one and am very much looking forward to trying it out.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Thank you! It was pretty exciting seeing your name on the order list. I guess it comes with the territory of selling a product that eventually you see a name that you recognize :)
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Echoing what David (kanetw) already said, but: super honored to have you as one of our preorder backers. If you have any questions/feedback about your headset or our project, please don't hesitate to reach out.
• azinman2 5y ago
  I know this is Linux oriented, but if I use it in tethered mode, could I hook it up to my MBP?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Maybe? Do other headsets work on the MBP? There's nothing blocking it, but it's not primary compatibility target. That being said, everything will be open source, so it shouldn't be too difficult to add it in if we don't have the resources for it.
    • azinman2 5y ago
      Is a single HDMI out enough? Don’t you need an 8k connection or the like to drive both displays?
• armitron 5y ago
  To me this is a near-certain failure in waiting, and here's why: + Limited information, bad comparisons (that "simulated" text rendering image is atrocious, where are the actual pulled from device and pulled from the OS images) + Very vague presentation, zero background on team members. Who are you? What have you engineered? What have you shipped? + Godot dependency does not inspire confidence, this is an opensource game engine geared for homebrew and indie developers. One would expect you'd need a lot more from the graphical foundation (latency, performance) since you're trying to do something that's never been done to a satisfactory degree before. + Totally subjective, but my spider sense is going crazy. The overall impression I get is that of a project driven by amateurs. If you didn't have some actual code on GitHub, I'd totally see this as a scam. Good luck but given how many projects with orders of magnitude better technical teams have crashed and burned, I won't be jumping on this ship. 3000$ is a lot to ask and you'd need to put a lot more on the "can they pull it off?" balancing scales than wishful thinking.
  • m0llusk 5y ago
    Godot has gotten a great deal of polish recently and there are those who think it makes a really good foundation for almost any kind of interactive application.
• seltzered_ 5y ago
  In addition to what was linked by the OP, Simula One VR was discussed 10 days ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30318094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30318094 > "with a VR computer you can change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute." You don't necessarily need a VR computer for this. I've created a subreddit to explore this topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/
• fuzzy2 5y ago
  Is it really comfortable to wear for extended periods of time? I’m a little behind on VR tech. I have an HTC Vive (1st gen), which has a third strap to support the weight. Does it really work okay without that? I would imagine the combined weight of the computer and the headset to be substantially higher than my HTC Vive. It has to be supported by something – which hopefully isn’t my nose or ears! (Also, what is the weight?) --- Kudos for using Shopify without a shit-ton of third-party stuff I regularly see on other shops!
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We might end up adding a third strap. More info on that in the upcoming 2-3 months. Weight is still being worked on. Our target is 800g, but that might change depending on what tradeoffs we want to make or what comfort testing tells us.
    • fuzzy2 5y ago
      Thanks for the info!
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Also, I generally try to limit third party stuff because it's just super annoying. Never mind that I use uMatrix and having to enable 20 different hosts makes me cranky. About the only third party thing we have is an invoicing app I installed temporarily.
• schaefer 5y ago
  Hi George, I'm definitely super interested in the space - to the extent that I've ordered recently received a competitor's product (the Varjo Aero) with the intent that would be used almost exclusively for productivity. I have to be blunt, the going has been rough. The clarity of the display is more than up to the task of writing software all day. But, the Aero is a windows only product. There either isn't, or I haven't found a productive Windows PCVR windows manager comparable to either SimulaVR or Immersed. This lack of software was completely unexpected, and rather shocking to me. After the Simula One is available on the market, I may well pivot to that device. But do you know of anyone who is taking on the effort of running SimulaVR on a windows host through any means? I don't mind rolling up my sleeves and doing work, but right now I don't see any path at all. My current productivity is stuck to a projection of the desktop in a VR space, rather than a true window to window, application level VR window manager.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Thanks. This is exactly why we're making our own device--we even talked to Varjo, but no interest in Linux compat. The problem with getting SimulaVR (Simula One will be compatible) to run is the lack of a WM API. Your best bet in that regard would be to get Microsoft to expose it or do WMR compatibility? It's a bit out of scope for us, we're focusing on OpenXR as #1 and SteamVR as fallback.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Somewhat echoing on kanetw/David's comments: But yeah, there aren't many options that I'm aware of, even in Windows. This frankly astonishes me. Of course we're biased, and think that Linux is a better OS than Windows, but it seems like Microsoft is missing a major opportunity by not focusing harder on consumer VR computing. The HoloLens was an amazing (early/experimental) product that was years ahead of its time. Rather than developing it (and other VR/AR computers) into consumer ready products, they seemed to have spent a bunch of time netting government VR contracts, and now focusing on Metaverse/social networking/gaming (like everyone else).
• Karsteski 5y ago
  I've been following this project via the mailing list for a few months now. I'm genuinely hoping it's a success! Good luck to the Simula team!
• CarVac 5y ago
  I'm unlikely to buy but I'm curious how well this could work for photo editing on the go, where the ability to reject outside light puts it potentially above laptops in practical use.
• carapace 5y ago
  I've been blasé about VR/AR since FB bought Oculus (well, since VRML et. al. flopped, really.) This is the first project that I've gotten excited about. Like, "shut up and take my money!" excited. (Folks complaining about the price: C'mon!? $3K-$4K for a high-end workstation is de rigueur and it's for work so it's tax deductible.)
• frkbmb 5y ago
• daviding 5y ago
  I would be tempted by this if I could try out SimulaVR first using my HP Reverb G2 HMD. It has great resolution, but I don't think there is a Linux driver that I guess would be the pre-requisite? I know a lot of people into VR for flight sims and driving, that spend $2000+ for high resolution VR experiences, so that demographic could be a good cross-over with this sort of productivity set-up - as long as they can try something like the window manager on their own device first?
  • floatboth 5y ago
    Some support for WMR headsets is available in https://github.com/OpenHMD/OpenHMD https://github.com/OpenHMD/OpenHMD but without 6DoF / inside-out controller tracking so far.
• antattack 5y ago
  Cool tech. Still, I don't understand how one can wear millimeter wave radio transmitters so close to the brain and not be concerned.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We haven't finalized on the mmWave yet, but there's standards for human body exposure that we will of course meet. IEC 62311, ICNIRP guidelines, and so on. The mmWave transmitter is directional, and the basic restrictions for local exposure in ICNIRP for the general public is at 20W/m2. The transmitter EIRP is 15dBm, so you'd need to put the entire transmitter's EIRP into a 4cm * 4cm target to exceed those.
    • antattack 5y ago
      Good to hear that you're taking it into consideration from the start. Even if device adheres to all regulations it would still be a concern to me as standards are mainly written around phone use (shorter intervals and from side of the head). Also, as you know, regulations vary greatly between countries so there's no consensus on what is safe. Personally, when on conference calls, I use bluetooth or wired headphones to keep my phone away from my head. If I was to use device like that I would prefer for it to have radios separate but I understand the ergonomics (and cost benefits) of all in one unit.
• thinkyfish 5y ago
  I'm actually really hyped for this, I was thinking I would have to get the ultra-proprietary Varjo headsets to get a really good headset in 2022, but I'm really looking hard at the Tethered version and building my own RDNA2 based compute unit. I'd much rather give 2k to an open source project.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Nice! Fair warning, you'll probably have reduced AR mode fidelity in tethered mode unless you have a Thunderbolt/PCIe link. Our compute pack uses a PCIe Gen3 x4 link to the front FPGA to get uncompressed image data (compression is something I want to avoid due to latency and memory bandwidth issues). Ideally we would have a way to compose the AR image in the front, but that's a massive engineering challenge.
• cdata 5y ago
  The website suggests there will be eye and hand tracking, but I could not find any mention of head tracking. Will the head be tracked in 3DOF or 6DOF?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Head tracking (positional) is 6DOF. Got lost in some editing, I'll re-add it.
    • yaomtc 5y ago
      So it has inside-out positional tracking, then. No reliance on base stations. Camera-based?
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Correct. Visual-inertial SLAM using the AR passthrough cameras, with possible additional input from mmWave RADAR.
• GordonS 5y ago
  This looks amazing, but I've always been put off VR by the bulkiness of the headset - I've got to wonder how it can be worn for long periods, and what that might do to my neck. Plus there's a risk of nausea and headaches, which would be pretty shitty if I dropped a couple of grand on a headset! Anyway, how realistic is it for VR headsets to be miniaturised, so they more resemble a pair of glasses? Or does physics mean that will never be possible?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    You can go a fair bit smaller, but the primary size driver is the optics. Pancake lenses, which combine refraction with reflection, allow the depth to be much smaller while having similar optical power. However they cause image artifacts and have really poor light transmission, so it takes a good amount of R&D to get them good enough. A traditional refractive system, especially for a high-fidelity device, is a better choice for now than optimizing for size. That can come later.
• dorfsmay 5y ago
  I love the idea to be able to work in many places while keeping a good posture! On the pictures, it looks like there is no pointing device. Is the pointing done by eye tracking? How do you click on things? How do you deal with "focus follow mouse"? For example I often look at one window while typing in another.
  • riskable 5y ago
    I don't know how it works with their headset but with the Quest 2 hand tracking (which is handled via four cheap IR cameras) you just make a pinch motion with your fingers to "click" or click-and-drag: https://support.oculus.com/articles/headsets-and-accessories/controllers-and-hand-tracking/index-controllers-hand-tracking/ https://support.oculus.com/articles/headsets-and-accessories... I assume that doing a right-click would be a pinch-and-hold sort of situation or maybe you could just use the left hand for that sort of thing.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Yes, Simula allows for you to retain full control of window management with only a keyboard; mouse and hand gestures are not necessarily needed, though will be supported also. In order to do this, we make use forward eye gaze, which you can use to move mouse cursors (and also to move windows around). Customizable keyboard shortcuts can be configured to resize/shrink/expand/zoom in/zoom out/push in/push away windows. Default keyboard shortcuts are explained in our GitHub repo (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula). As a demonstration, here's an old demo of me using eye gaze to manipulate windows: https://youtu.be/rm72Qmi8Bik https://youtu.be/rm72Qmi8Bik RE "focus follow mouse", Simula is currently set so that the "actively gazed at window" is the one that receives all inputs. We have found this to be pretty resilient almost all use cases, but as you said there are scenarios where you want to lock focus on a window while typing on another. We should add a keyboard shortcut to do this (would be very easy to implement). Thanks for your interest BTW. The posture/freedom of movement part is one of my favorite things about VR computing. I love to work on things while "supine".[1] It allows you to get way more time spent on a task without the constraint of physical/postural fatigue limiting you. [1] As demonstrated in this cool blog series I found: https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/ https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
• fire 5y ago
  Oh hell yeah! I can't afford it, but I would love to be able to read text and just generally program within VR itself ( review units wink wink ). I saw mention of Nix - what does steam / proton compatibility look like there? Is there more info available on the compute unit's load profile during typical usage? Any idea whether it would be able to handle running a windows VM with hwaccel at the same time? With a Xe gpu it won't be playing games, but if the performance isn't vomit-inducing it could be a really interesting cross platform development... platform! Have y'all seen VR-OS[1] or talked to Matthaeus[2] about bringing some of its user experience over? Your projects look like a match made in heaven to my eyes. I see the founder's edition is listed as using a "LED Matrix Display" - what does the standard edition use? Is this OLED vs MiniLED? Is hand tracking camera based? How intensive is that on the system? Did other solutions like LIDAR or mini radar[3] present issues? I'm so freaking excited to see how this comes along, and I hope y'all last for a very, very long time. 1: https://youtube.com/c/MatthaeusKrenn https://youtube.com/c/MatthaeusKrenn 2: https://twitter.com/matthaeus https://twitter.com/matthaeus 3: https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/radar-sensors/radar-sensors-for-iot/60ghz-radar/ https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/radar-sensors...
  • kanetw 5y ago
    The hand tracking is Ultraleap's assuming they actually deliver the Linux software at some point in the next few months. We're considering backups like using mmWave RADAR. It shouldn't be too intensive (at least not noticeable so far), but I'll double check. The LED matrix display is for the outside. In both the founders' and regular, the internal display are Sharp 2448x2448 LCDs. The regular edition will have a LED matrix display only if we sell enough units, basically. I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused on the HW right now. Steam works on Nix afaik (although George is the main Nix user); a Windows VM... should work?
    • fire 5y ago
      Ahhh, nice! What's the purpose/utility of the matrix display? Can it be used as a light source? Or maybe a point grid display for pixel art style faces / messages? > I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused on the HW right now. That's actually precisely why I brought it up :D > a Windows VM... should work? Ah sorry, I edited my message above to be clearer as far as what I was actually asking ( load profiles and such ). I got so excited that I started brain dumping without a lot of context.
• JeremyNT 5y ago
  I find the device intriguing, indeed, but I'm not terribly interested in a custom distro. Based on the fact that your existing code is open-source, is it safe to assume I can just bring my own Linux distribution?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Correct, although you'll need to make sure the login/boot process works without an external display.
• LoveMortuus 5y ago
  Did anyone have to find battery life? I keep looking but t can't find it... It could be because I'm on mobile. Kinda strange, since this is quite an important part. If you find battery life, please tell me!
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Battery life isn't in the specs yet because it's TBD. We're targeting 3 hours, but that's not a final number and might change if we notice that it's too heavy or we still have usable mass budget etc.
    • LoveMortuus 5y ago
      Three hours seems very low, but I guess it count be doable if the charge time is one hour or less. That way I could see it like, it forces you to stretch your legs. Damn... I'm guessing swappable batteries aren't on the roadmap. But the tech looks really cool, especially because MAYBE it could be used while laying in the bed. Best of luck! I hope you'll be profitable and continue to develop the tech!
      • kanetw 5y ago
        Swappable isn't planned for the v1, yeah. V2, maybe. Charge time should be about an hour (1C charging).
• agentdrtran 5y ago
  I am not ready for anything like this but it's very cool! I can't wait to see how it develops.
• Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  This is great. The project is great, GNU/Linux support is great. Hope this flies. As for the price complaints, don't listen to them and price it as you see fit. It is your business, after all. If it costs too much for someone, they won't buy it, end pf story. Or they can get themselves some cheap(ish) metaware.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thanks for your support. It is pretty cool to live in a society where people are free to "vote with their dollars" on projects that they like or don't like. If we had to convince 51% of the public (even the tech public) that this was a good idea in order to proceed, we would never be able to get off the ground. We just have to find a small number of people who agree it's cool (and can afford our high/early costs). With that said, we understand that our product is very expensive and not affordable for everyone.[1] We've done as much as we can (within our constraints) to offer as low of a price as we can. This includes ditching Kickstarter to pass on an extra $100/unit of savings.[2] We hope to reduce costs with future iterations as we get more economies of scale and manufacturing know-how. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 [2] https://simulavr.com/blog/launching-this-weekend/ https://simulavr.com/blog/launching-this-weekend/
• Aeolun 5y ago
  It used to be that companies had products ready for sale before trying to sell them. Generally with production being funded by a loan. Is this something that’s just impossible now? Or banks don’t want to fund something like this?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    It's really incredibly hard to get a loan nowadays. And finding a VC that won't stick their nose in too much is also really hard. George knows more about it, but even an established company I'm familiar with could not get a loan without personal guarantees from the CEO last year.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Bank debtors are very downside oriented, and want to see a conservative track record of cash flow coming into a business before they are willing to go anywhere near it. (Not necessarily saying this is always bad). Venture is a better fit for our project, but from the outside we look like we're way too niche to ever have a big market. Great VCs will know that small markets can turn into large markets[1], but we had a very hard time finding good investors in the past. We tried to raise money from traditional institutions and failed, and decided that the best way to proceed was to just focus on our product and carve our own path. [1] https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3V-toy-markets https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3V-toy-markets
• reitanqild 5y ago
  I badly want this to succeed. I don't care much about the Facebook device, but this is something I could have bought if I wasn't still a bit cash strapped. That said, I'm expecting a nice raise (or a significantly better paid job) this year so it might not be too far away, even with more than three kids in the house. At least I wish you 1. spectacular success 2. that you stay sane and true and don't sell out to Facebook or any other monster
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Thank you! We want to avoid being bought at all costs :)
• austinthetaco 5y ago
  Looks like a very interesting prospect for a laptop replacement. One small question I haven't seen answered here is if you can plug in an external display, or how you plan to handle web conferences. Most orgs I've worked for like you to have a webcam on, and see others. I'm not sure how that would practically work if they see a webcam of someone with their headset on, would make for a pretty akward meeting.
  • zmmmmm 5y ago
    Comparable services like ImmersedVR have a virtual webcam that projects a picture of you as an avatar, including moving your mouth when speaking etc. It's pretty out there and I suspect I would be too worried about looking hiliarously silly while saying something serious to ever use it in earnest. But that is the kind of direction things are going, with some offerings now actually mapping a texture map of your face onto the avatar and animating that.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    We have several external DP ports via USB-C. Web conferences... hm. Difficult to have some form of webcam with the headset on, but maybe there's a good way we'll discover down the line.
    • austinthetaco 5y ago
      I don't see myself ever buying one until you figure that out. I'm willing to bet you even take video calls in the making of this headset talking with different people. It's such a crucial piece in this remote work world.
      • kanetw 5y ago
        I haven't turned my camera on in months, but I get your point.
• boredumb 5y ago
  As terrified as I am of VR headsets taking over society, this is cool. One of my most immediate and less paranoid concerns that people with current VR sets probably know, does looking around like that make your neck/back/shoulders ache at any point? Also is AR mode nauseating after a few hours?
  • zmmmmm 5y ago
    > does looking around like that make your neck/back/shoulders ache at any point no. There are plenty of practical issues but that isn't one from my usage :-)
  • kanetw 5y ago
    AR mode is tricky, and it's one of the things I need full integration for. This will take a few months to get the sensors, FPGA, etc. sorted. So far with prototype units it was fine, but haven't tested for longer periods of time.
• masswerk 5y ago
  Not meaning to be picky, but how is this related to the work of Ole-Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard?
• sebastianconcpt 5y ago
  It solves a personal productivity problem for you as much as the self balancing Segway electric scooter solves the personal transportation problem.
• creakingstairs 5y ago
  I've tried very hard to get into working in VR using Oculus 2 and Immersed but the biggest dealbreaker for me was that texts that were not at the center of my view were blurred. This meant I had to rotate my head a lot more. No more glancing sideways at the other window in my IDE. I just ended up getting a 32 inch 4k monitor instead. I suspect this issue would remain even with better specs. The moment this issue is fixed, I'll gladly throw in 5k.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    I'll post a through the lens image in a few weeks but this is equivalent to a 1080p monitor two feet away anywhere where you can direct your gaze. (Slight dropoff towards the edges but still over 30 PPD and 20um RMS spot size)
    • creakingstairs 5y ago
      That is exciting news! Is there a twitter account or blog that I can follow? (I'm assuming you are working on Simula One)
• zmmmmm 5y ago
  I love how breathtakingly audacious this is, and I yearn to pre-order it. However, the same thing (the audacity) is what makes it nearly impossible to put down $3k on it before it really ships and real people really try it. Watch any of John Carmack's keynotes and see the just incredible level of detailed engineering refinement that has to go into solving even basic showstopper issues with VR headsets. That a small team with (from what I can tell) no production experience in this space can pull off creating something that won't fall victim to even one of these problems is a huge risk to take. Having said that: if 6 months from now these are shipping and there are reviews of them that aren't terrible, I will be all in. Good luck and thank you for being audacious. It is definitely something the field needs at this point!!!!
  • freedomben 5y ago
    This is the hardest problem to solve IMHO. I agree completely with you, but I also realize that people behaving like us could cause the product to fail, whereas otherwise it might succeeded if we'd got in and support it sooner. After losing $500 on a bet on kickstarter though, I'm pretty weary. I don't want to get screwed again.
  • mobiledev2014 5y ago
    6 months from now Apple might have used WWDC to completely flip the table on VR/AR. Extremely interested to see what they have coming and I don't think it's going to be a way to manage traditional flat applications. This doesn't take away from how awesome Simula One looks but it's still an elephant in the room.
    • udbhavs 5y ago
      Yep, Apple's power is controlling their whole stack. I won't be surprised at all if the main draw for their XR headset is specialised integrations with Logic, Final Cut, or even their Office suite with new ways to interact with the interface in an AR environment and not just a 2d window projected into a 360° view (although that has its usefulness too). Apple tends to target creatives and prosumers in media production so I'm sure they have some special software in the works to complement their hardware.
• terrycody 5y ago
  I personally found this is really interesting, hope it can becomes smaller and lightweight soon.
• arilotter 5y ago
  Are any of you dogfooding your prototypes full-time? If it's comfortable for you to use for full workdays in programming, I'd bite the bullet and get one. I've wanted something like this for years, but don't think I'd want it unless it can totally replace my laptop.
  • kanetw 5y ago
    Not yet using the prototypes (there's basically literally two samples of the displays we're using and we need them for dev) but once we have more of them produced, yeah, definitely. George used a Vive Pro for early software dev a lot.
  • georgewsinger 5y ago
    Thanks for your interest. I know it's a cliche, but yes, we are actually building a VR computer because we want to use them ourselves (completely replacing our own Laptops/PCs). Here's an early "dog-fooding" video of me using Simula to develop on Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI.
• jzer0cool 5y ago
  Curious about VR resolution in general. How much resolution is necessary to be very close to "perceived" human eye resolution? Are we close to getting this over the next few years? What I am speaking of here is say in motion picture we get some movie quality using 24 fps and you get some hyper realism after about 30fps. Given combination of resolution and fps, are we close to point of VR world being indistinguishable quality with reality?
  • kanetw 5y ago
    It's indistinguishable from reality at 60 PPD (pixels-per-degree) in the foveal region. We're at 35. Varjo has >60 PPD by having a high-res display for the foveal region and another for the periphery. It's doable with our approach to optics (increased magnification in the foveal region) with... about 4k x 4k?
• Happpy 5y ago
  Preordered one. I hope this product has a chance against the biggest. - open source - nixos - not focused on ads/metaverse/my personal data
• junijaman 5y ago
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