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We can fix that, and it is being addressed. Cash is a great answer to a whole lot of basic commerce, small scale, freedom style, between adults just adulting.

We can fix that, and it is being addressed. Cash is a great answer to a whole lot of basic commerce, small scale, freedom style, between adults just adulting. The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit and we have not shown we are able to avoid abusing electronics. One day maybe. Right now? Not a chance. Cash remains necessary and the costs are not crazy enough to warrant all the abuses and risks other payment forms bring to the table. I do not connect payments to my phone for example. Everyone I know who did has a story to tell about how doing that cost them.

mellavora 5y ago
Care to address how civil forfeiture is being addressed? This 2015 post suggests that in 2014, civil forfeiture exceeded burglary. > Between 1989 and 2010, U.S. attorneys seized an estimated $12.6 billion in asset forfeiture cases. The growth rate during that time averaged +19.4% annually... Then by 2014, that number had ballooned to roughly $4.5 billion for the year, .... According to the FBI, the total amount of goods stolen by criminals in 2014 burglary offenses suffered an estimated $3.9 billion in property losses. This means that the police are now taking more assets than the criminals. https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/north_america/americas-current-economy/police-civil-asset-forfeitures-exceed-all-burglaries-in-2014/ https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/north_... I'd love to see evidence that the tide is turning, hopefully you have some.
pdonis 5y ago
> The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit I benefit quite a lot from not having to use cash. I pay all my bills with credit cards. That means I can do it remotely, taking a few minutes a month, without having to leave my house. Having to pay each bill in person, in cash, would be a huge cost to me in time and effort. And if the companies I'm paying those bills to had to have the personnel and infrastructure to support all or most of their customers paying in person, in cash, the costs of the things I'm actually paying them for would go way up. Sure, if you're going out for coffee and you'd rather pay with cash, it's a hassle if the coffee shop doesn't accept it. But that just means you go and find another coffee shop that does. That's a very different issue than the issue of cutting off people's access to non-cash methods of payment, which is what the article under discussion is talking about.
- throwaway22032 5y ago
  Nah, you're just not thinking about it. Trivial solution: I walk to bank some day once a month, give them cash, give them account numbers, sent. It'd be done in all of ten minutes. Does it exist where you live? Maybe, maybe not. Hell, if I knew you I'd do it for you, I'd enjoy obfuscating my accounts. And no-one is saying that literally every transaction has to be done in cash, just that it should be _possible_ to do so. The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fabrication and I frankly tire of that discussion. You're talking about moving small physical things, it's a solved problem, everything around you right now is a small physical thing. edit: posters are responding about the businesses that exist in their area. by this token it's "inconvenient" for me to use cash because the japanese place down the road doesn't take it. well no, they're just being dicks, there's no _fundamental_ inconvenience.
  - bgirard 5y ago
    I care barely drive to a bank within 10 minutes, which isn't the bank I have an account with. It's only open during my work hours (9-5pm M-F), or I have to go on a Saturday. The wait time to see a clerk alone are often 10 minutes or more. And the clerk can't help me make certain payments that require me to use a web portal or mail a cheque. > The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fabrication. That's a strong statement without considering that your experience might not match others'.
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      [deleted]
    - bugbuddy 5y ago
      >> The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fabrication. >That's a strong statement without considering that your experience might not match others'. IMHO, both the original statement and the respond are opinions. It may well be the case that cash is universally not “hilariously inconvenient.” Without some empirical evidence, it is just a shouting match. In my opinion, cash is actually very convenient to use and encourages reflections on spending habits.
ekelsen 5y ago
If we can fix "that" (government seizing your cash), why can't we fix a similar with cashless? Maybe the government hasn't technically seized it if they just make it inaccessible, but the effect is the same.
chaps 5y ago
"We can fix that" You sure about that? Currently Chicago's mayor is trying to bring it back.
obviouslynotme 5y ago
>The problem IS businesses refusing cash. They legally cannot, at least not in the USA, and I doubt in most countries. Thanks to the legal tender laws, businesses cannot legally refuse the legal tender, especially in its cash form. Once a deal is made and cash is offered, service must be rendered or it is considered stolen. A fun way to exploit this (before coin machines) was to go to tow truck lots, offer pennies, and then report grand theft auto to the local sheriff when they refused.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Cash is only legal tender for debts. I can run a business that refuses cash as long as services or products are not rendered before payment. I can say that if you want to eat at my restaurant, you need to use credit or debit cards only.
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  - ddingus 5y ago
    Do patrons pay after eating? Debt If they pay prior, not debt. And yeah, there are times I would not choose your establishment and recommend others avoid it as well. Being able to use cash is a basic thing I value highly. I realize we disagree, and we get to do that too. No worries, but just know while you do you, I'm doing me. Wish it were different.
suifbwish 5y ago
What businesses don’t accept cash? Everywhere I go does. In fact it is illegal for them not to do so.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> I do not connect payments to my phone for example. Everyone I know who did has a story to tell about how doing that cost them. I do this and all my friends have done this, and I haven’t heard any costing stories. I guess you could be in some kind of high risk group or area for digital theft (Russia?), but I’m curious what specific things have happened to all your friends.

mellavora 5y ago

Care to address how civil forfeiture is being addressed? This 2015 post suggests that in 2014, civil forfeiture exceeded burglary. > Between 1989 and 2010, U.S. attorneys seized an estimated $12.6 billion in asset forfeiture cases. The growth rate during that time averaged +19.4% annually... Then by 2014, that number had ballooned to roughly $4.5 billion for the year, .... According to the FBI, the total amount of goods stolen by criminals in 2014 burglary offenses suffered an estimated $3.9 billion in property losses. This means that the police are now taking more assets than the criminals. https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/north_america/americas-current-economy/police-civil-asset-forfeitures-exceed-all-burglaries-in-2014/ https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/north_... I'd love to see evidence that the tide is turning, hopefully you have some.

pdonis 5y ago

> The problem IS businesses refusing cash. The public really does not benefit I benefit quite a lot from not having to use cash. I pay all my bills with credit cards. That means I can do it remotely, taking a few minutes a month, without having to leave my house. Having to pay each bill in person, in cash, would be a huge cost to me in time and effort. And if the companies I'm paying those bills to had to have the personnel and infrastructure to support all or most of their customers paying in person, in cash, the costs of the things I'm actually paying them for would go way up. Sure, if you're going out for coffee and you'd rather pay with cash, it's a hassle if the coffee shop doesn't accept it. But that just means you go and find another coffee shop that does. That's a very different issue than the issue of cutting off people's access to non-cash methods of payment, which is what the article under discussion is talking about.

throwaway22032 5y ago
Nah, you're just not thinking about it. Trivial solution: I walk to bank some day once a month, give them cash, give them account numbers, sent. It'd be done in all of ten minutes. Does it exist where you live? Maybe, maybe not. Hell, if I knew you I'd do it for you, I'd enjoy obfuscating my accounts. And no-one is saying that literally every transaction has to be done in cash, just that it should be _possible_ to do so. The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fabrication and I frankly tire of that discussion. You're talking about moving small physical things, it's a solved problem, everything around you right now is a small physical thing. edit: posters are responding about the businesses that exist in their area. by this token it's "inconvenient" for me to use cash because the japanese place down the road doesn't take it. well no, they're just being dicks, there's no _fundamental_ inconvenience.
- bgirard 5y ago
  I care barely drive to a bank within 10 minutes, which isn't the bank I have an account with. It's only open during my work hours (9-5pm M-F), or I have to go on a Saturday. The wait time to see a clerk alone are often 10 minutes or more. And the clerk can't help me make certain payments that require me to use a web portal or mail a cheque. > The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fabrication. That's a strong statement without considering that your experience might not match others'.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bugbuddy 5y ago
    >> The idea that cash is this hilariously inconvenient thing is a complete fabrication. >That's a strong statement without considering that your experience might not match others'. IMHO, both the original statement and the respond are opinions. It may well be the case that cash is universally not “hilariously inconvenient.” Without some empirical evidence, it is just a shouting match. In my opinion, cash is actually very convenient to use and encourages reflections on spending habits.

ekelsen 5y ago

If we can fix "that" (government seizing your cash), why can't we fix a similar with cashless? Maybe the government hasn't technically seized it if they just make it inaccessible, but the effect is the same.

chaps 5y ago

"We can fix that" You sure about that? Currently Chicago's mayor is trying to bring it back.

obviouslynotme 5y ago

>The problem IS businesses refusing cash. They legally cannot, at least not in the USA, and I doubt in most countries. Thanks to the legal tender laws, businesses cannot legally refuse the legal tender, especially in its cash form. Once a deal is made and cash is offered, service must be rendered or it is considered stolen. A fun way to exploit this (before coin machines) was to go to tow truck lots, offer pennies, and then report grand theft auto to the local sheriff when they refused.

heavyset_go 5y ago
Cash is only legal tender for debts. I can run a business that refuses cash as long as services or products are not rendered before payment. I can say that if you want to eat at my restaurant, you need to use credit or debit cards only.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ddingus 5y ago
  Do patrons pay after eating? Debt If they pay prior, not debt. And yeah, there are times I would not choose your establishment and recommend others avoid it as well. Being able to use cash is a basic thing I value highly. I realize we disagree, and we get to do that too. No worries, but just know while you do you, I'm doing me. Wish it were different.

suifbwish 5y ago

What businesses don’t accept cash? Everywhere I go does. In fact it is illegal for them not to do so.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> I do not connect payments to my phone for example. Everyone I know who did has a story to tell about how doing that cost them. I do this and all my friends have done this, and I haven’t heard any costing stories. I guess you could be in some kind of high risk group or area for digital theft (Russia?), but I’m curious what specific things have happened to all your friends.