8 ms·

Mojang vs. Bethesda Scrolls Case Heads to Court

47 points by Impossible 15y ago

markokocic 15y ago
Given the attention this case got in some communities, it is worth every cent they are going to spend in court, regardless of the winner. This particular case seems like good PR for both parties.
- falcolas 15y ago
  Good PR in the sense of brand awareness, but I can't imagine this is garnering good will for Bethesda. It's hard to say whether good will really matters, though, as capricious as gamers can be.
- gte910h 15y ago
  While people love ES games, they don't particularly have love for Bethesda (hell, they're the people who made the horse armor which is the standard example of stupid DLC). On the other hand, people love Notch and Mojang... I could see this pushing people on the fence away from buying skyrim (as it is for me; I'd probably not have time to play anyhow, but it's also supporting a bit too much in the way of crazy here).
joebadmo 15y ago
I guess the Quake 3 match fell through. Too bad. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2895491 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2895491
andrewingram 15y ago
Forgive me if I've misunderstood trademarks. But aren't Bethesda, as trademark holders, required to defend that trademark or risk losing it? I don't agree that a trademark on Elder Scrolls should cover just Scrolls, but it might just be a case of a legal department going through the motions.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Legal departments going through the motions are a big problem, though.
- Dylan16807 15y ago
  They have to defend the trademark itself, yes. But not things that aren't all that similar.
  - cube13 15y ago
    From what I've heard, Scrolls is a fantasy... something(could be turn based strategy, role playing, or something completely else) game currently in development by Mojang. The Elder Scrolls is a series of fantasy role playing games developed by Bathesda. Bathesda's lawyers probably felt that the two titles are similar enough in either gameplay style or genre that it could be infringement. Unfortunately, there isn't any other way of resolving this than suing the people you believe are infringing on your trademark.
    - uxp 15y ago
      The unfortunate side effect is that Scrolls (the parchment containing objects) are a deprecated technology. The only time We get to use them anymore is in a fantasy setting. I really don't understand how they can reasonably expect to own the trademark on a word that is only a portion of their actual product line and describes an object that has been known to exist for thousands of years. Microsoft was denied the trademark for "Windows", but they were given trademarks for the phrases "Windows XP Operating System", etc.
      - cube13 15y ago
        The trademark doesn't prevent you from having in-game objects called "Scrolls". I can only(if Bathesda wins the suit, which I think is unlikely) prevent you from creating a fantasy video game called "Scrolls". Also, MS does have a registered trademark for "Windows"(http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualProperty/Trademarks/EN-US.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualPrope...), but this is only for computer operating systems, not for physical building windows.
jakelear 15y ago
I can definitely understand how the masses would side with Mojang on this one. Big media corp vs small indie self-made studio, etc. However, not knowing all that much about "Scrolls," I feel like Bethesda (Zenimax) has a good argument here. The only artwork I've seen from scrolls depicts Fantasy-style characters in leather and metal armor. From what I understand, it's some sort of card game, but that's not obvious from the at-a-glance view, and I think there could be some confusion among those unfamiliar with the two games in question. Any major trademark holder has to actively protect their copyright/trademark and I feel like this, though perhaps unfortunate, is a pretty standard legal practice.
- cbs 15y ago
  >I think there could be some confusion among those unfamiliar with the two games in question. Probably has nothing to do with the name; both scrolls (the objects) and Fantasy-style characters in leather and metal armor are incredibly common video game tropes.
- cdmckay 15y ago
  I don't know, shouldn't their trade-mark only protect "The Elder Scrolls"? Otherwise, this would be an incentive for companies to trade-mark longer trade-marks, as they would receive protection for every word in the mark. For example, "The Elder Fantasy Knight Chronicle Scrolls".
parfe 15y ago
Worst case Mojang changes the name of an unreleased game (that I hadn't heard about until now). Bethseda on the other hand looks to be trying to beat up on the little guy. After Oblivian's "Too bad you leveled wrong. No stat points for you." character system, the next elder scrolls already lacked appeal. This case certainly won't help.
- dkersten 15y ago
  "Too bad you leveled wrong. No stat points for you." Meh, leveling was pointless anyway because when you leveled up, so did the enemy. I hear the next game is keeping this mechanic, so its lost its appeal to me too. Regarding this case: I have never ever heard of the elder scrolls games referred to as scrolls. Its either The Elder Scrolls or its Oblivion or Morrowind or whatever.
  - parfe 15y ago
    >Meh, leveling was pointless anyway because when you leveled up, so did the enemy. Yes, but if you didn't also increase other skills you would only get +2 or +3s for your stats rather than the max of +5s to three stat groups. So the enemy hits lvl 20 just like you do, but you are much weaker as you've inefficiency leveled.
    - eavc 15y ago
      Which meant that unless you optimized your progress, leveling was counter-productive. Enter the difficulty slider. Both mechanics made the game silly to me in later stages, and I never finished.
- TheCapn 15y ago
  "Worst case Mojang changes the name of an unreleased game (that I hadn't heard about until now)." I disagree. Worst case is both companies are out $X because legal departments collect their fees post-court for a no good reason. Mojang is essentially playing a game of chicken at this point. They're calling Bethseda's bluff that they're not serious about pursuing the case but the longer it goes like this the more they risk losing in lawyer fees. I see Mojang backing down last minute because after-all, your statement really is true in the sense that they might have to alter an unreleased game's name... s/scrolls/$something_else/g
rkalla 15y ago
I understand that it is cool to root for the little guy, but with $20 million in the bank[1] and something like 20 employees (I am trying to remember from the docu about them), Markus isn't a guy sitting in his dorm room trying to hack his way to future success, and as andrewingram pointed out, if Bethesda doesn't defend their claim on the "Elder Scrolls" name, they can lose it. I would not find it that unreasonable to think that ES fans likely refer to the game as "Scrolls" and not "Elder" when discussing it online, nor that in RPG groups if a year ago you said "Have you played Scrolls?" most people would realize you were talking about ES. This seems reasonable to me... like if I created a new game called "Warcraft" that let you build siege weapons and launch attacks against castles filled with orcs. I would fully expect Blizzard to come after me. It isn't like they named the game "Frostraven Scrolls" or something clearly different. Just my 2 cents. Just communicating the fact that I am not weeping in agony for Mojang and their poor plight. [1] http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/314675-turning-something-you-did-free-into-millions.html http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussi...
- sharpneli 15y ago
  I have a strong hunch that the response to "Have you played Scrolls?" would be "What?" "You know, Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall" (choose the right one) "Oh yeah I've played that, maybe bit too much."
  - rkalla 15y ago
    That's a good point... maybe my prompting question was wrong. "Are you familiar with Scrolls lore" or "Scrolls style of play?" or "Do you like the Scrolls games?" maybe better options so they are grouped.
    - shabble 15y ago
      I've only ever heard it referred to in the plural sense as 'elder scrolls' series, across quite a wide variety of people. This is from casual players, console version players, d&d geeks, as well as the hardcore modding communities. In almost all cases someone refers to a specific game by its subtitle though, and noted above. I'm not sure many people would realise what you meant if you asked "Do you like the Scrolls games?", whereas s/Scrolls/Elder Scrolls/ and you'd have much higher recognition. I might try asking a few people and seeing how it actually works out, but IMO the names are sufficiently distinct as to not cause confusion.
Shenglong 15y ago
I was going to write a satirical comment pointing out how ridiculous this is, but I can't come up with anything that even semi-serious. Bethesda needs a PR team.
dangero 15y ago
Mojang has money, so no matter what this won't hurt him, but unless he's doing this for the publicity, he's making the wrong choice. Change the name of your unreleased game. Not that big a deal, and you'll save a lot of lawyer fees. Pick your battles. Of course, that is if he isn't attempting to use this as a publicity stunt. As some people mentioned, Mojang's project wasn't that well known prior to this incident.
Zimahl 15y ago
Remember, this isn't just about Mojang naming their game 'Scrolls', this is about them doing that AND applying for a trademark on the name 'Scrolls' for video games. If this was just about the name of a game then it wouldn't be much of an issue, Bethesda could just cover their TM by licensing it to them for how little or much they wanted to. But Mojang wants their own TM (to subjugate others) and that's where the lawyers are getting huffy. Frankly, I think he should just change the name of his game. Life is too short to deal with the headache and pay a bunch of lawyers to argue over this junk. 'Scrolls' doesn't seem like a great name anyways. Disclaimer: I love Minecraft and play it regularly, but I'm not interested in card-type strategy games. Therefore I won't probably even try a demo of 'Scrolls' (or whatever it ends up being called).
- Zodiakos 15y ago
  >But Mojang wants their own TM (to subjugate others) I'm not sure that the parenthetical remark is really warranted, since there are many other reasons to want a trademark, nearly all of them more useful than 'subjugating others'. Such as to prevent someone making sure that someone doesn't make a game called 'Scrolls: The Elders' - Basically, to prevent someone riding on the coattails of your success by riding your product brand name or dragging your brand into the mud with an inferior but confusingly similarly named product. The name Scrolls is neither of those things, which is why Bethesda is in the wrong here - both ethically, and most likely legally. I guess we'll see.
redthrowaway 15y ago
This seems like a really ill-conceived play on bethsoft's part. A month before the release of their biggest title in years, and they want to piss off gamers by suing someone universally loved by them? Why? What possible good could come of this for them? I would have thought the initial reaction to the story would have caused them to rethink their strategy, but they don't seem to care.
- radu_floricica 15y ago
  There is no such thing as bad publicity. And this one is really cheap. How else would I find out on HN that they're launching next month?
  - redthrowaway 15y ago
    Bethesda doesn't need this kind of publicity; they're one of the biggest and most successful studios this side of EA or Activision. Skyrim has been hotly anticipated (and its release date announced) for about a year, now. I can see this having a minor effect on Skyrim sales, but I certainly can't see it having a positive one.
dustingetz 15y ago
i'm sure the suit is ridiculous and all, but why exactly does the Scrolls team think that defending this suit is in their business interests?
nknight 15y ago
I'd find a lawsuit over "Minecraft" at least as plausible as this nonsense. That the ActiLizzard has managed to keep its lawyers caged does not reflect well on Bethesda.

47 points by Impossible 15y ago

Given the attention this case got in some communities, it is worth every cent they are going to spend in court, regardless of the winner. This particular case seems like good PR for both parties.

falcolas 15y ago
Good PR in the sense of brand awareness, but I can't imagine this is garnering good will for Bethesda. It's hard to say whether good will really matters, though, as capricious as gamers can be.
gte910h 15y ago
While people love ES games, they don't particularly have love for Bethesda (hell, they're the people who made the horse armor which is the standard example of stupid DLC). On the other hand, people love Notch and Mojang... I could see this pushing people on the fence away from buying skyrim (as it is for me; I'd probably not have time to play anyhow, but it's also supporting a bit too much in the way of crazy here).

joebadmo 15y ago

I guess the Quake 3 match fell through. Too bad. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2895491 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2895491

andrewingram 15y ago

Forgive me if I've misunderstood trademarks. But aren't Bethesda, as trademark holders, required to defend that trademark or risk losing it? I don't agree that a trademark on Elder Scrolls should cover just Scrolls, but it might just be a case of a legal department going through the motions.

Tichy 15y ago
Legal departments going through the motions are a big problem, though.
Dylan16807 15y ago
They have to defend the trademark itself, yes. But not things that aren't all that similar.
- cube13 15y ago
  From what I've heard, Scrolls is a fantasy... something(could be turn based strategy, role playing, or something completely else) game currently in development by Mojang. The Elder Scrolls is a series of fantasy role playing games developed by Bathesda. Bathesda's lawyers probably felt that the two titles are similar enough in either gameplay style or genre that it could be infringement. Unfortunately, there isn't any other way of resolving this than suing the people you believe are infringing on your trademark.
  - uxp 15y ago
    The unfortunate side effect is that Scrolls (the parchment containing objects) are a deprecated technology. The only time We get to use them anymore is in a fantasy setting. I really don't understand how they can reasonably expect to own the trademark on a word that is only a portion of their actual product line and describes an object that has been known to exist for thousands of years. Microsoft was denied the trademark for "Windows", but they were given trademarks for the phrases "Windows XP Operating System", etc.
    - cube13 15y ago
      The trademark doesn't prevent you from having in-game objects called "Scrolls". I can only(if Bathesda wins the suit, which I think is unlikely) prevent you from creating a fantasy video game called "Scrolls". Also, MS does have a registered trademark for "Windows"(http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualProperty/Trademarks/EN-US.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/en/us/IntellectualPrope...), but this is only for computer operating systems, not for physical building windows.

jakelear 15y ago

I can definitely understand how the masses would side with Mojang on this one. Big media corp vs small indie self-made studio, etc. However, not knowing all that much about "Scrolls," I feel like Bethesda (Zenimax) has a good argument here. The only artwork I've seen from scrolls depicts Fantasy-style characters in leather and metal armor. From what I understand, it's some sort of card game, but that's not obvious from the at-a-glance view, and I think there could be some confusion among those unfamiliar with the two games in question. Any major trademark holder has to actively protect their copyright/trademark and I feel like this, though perhaps unfortunate, is a pretty standard legal practice.

cbs 15y ago
>I think there could be some confusion among those unfamiliar with the two games in question. Probably has nothing to do with the name; both scrolls (the objects) and Fantasy-style characters in leather and metal armor are incredibly common video game tropes.
cdmckay 15y ago
I don't know, shouldn't their trade-mark only protect "The Elder Scrolls"? Otherwise, this would be an incentive for companies to trade-mark longer trade-marks, as they would receive protection for every word in the mark. For example, "The Elder Fantasy Knight Chronicle Scrolls".

parfe 15y ago

Worst case Mojang changes the name of an unreleased game (that I hadn't heard about until now). Bethseda on the other hand looks to be trying to beat up on the little guy. After Oblivian's "Too bad you leveled wrong. No stat points for you." character system, the next elder scrolls already lacked appeal. This case certainly won't help.

dkersten 15y ago
"Too bad you leveled wrong. No stat points for you." Meh, leveling was pointless anyway because when you leveled up, so did the enemy. I hear the next game is keeping this mechanic, so its lost its appeal to me too. Regarding this case: I have never ever heard of the elder scrolls games referred to as scrolls. Its either The Elder Scrolls or its Oblivion or Morrowind or whatever.
- parfe 15y ago
  >Meh, leveling was pointless anyway because when you leveled up, so did the enemy. Yes, but if you didn't also increase other skills you would only get +2 or +3s for your stats rather than the max of +5s to three stat groups. So the enemy hits lvl 20 just like you do, but you are much weaker as you've inefficiency leveled.
  - eavc 15y ago
    Which meant that unless you optimized your progress, leveling was counter-productive. Enter the difficulty slider. Both mechanics made the game silly to me in later stages, and I never finished.
TheCapn 15y ago
"Worst case Mojang changes the name of an unreleased game (that I hadn't heard about until now)." I disagree. Worst case is both companies are out $X because legal departments collect their fees post-court for a no good reason. Mojang is essentially playing a game of chicken at this point. They're calling Bethseda's bluff that they're not serious about pursuing the case but the longer it goes like this the more they risk losing in lawyer fees. I see Mojang backing down last minute because after-all, your statement really is true in the sense that they might have to alter an unreleased game's name... s/scrolls/$something_else/g

rkalla 15y ago

I understand that it is cool to root for the little guy, but with $20 million in the bank[1] and something like 20 employees (I am trying to remember from the docu about them), Markus isn't a guy sitting in his dorm room trying to hack his way to future success, and as andrewingram pointed out, if Bethesda doesn't defend their claim on the "Elder Scrolls" name, they can lose it. I would not find it that unreasonable to think that ES fans likely refer to the game as "Scrolls" and not "Elder" when discussing it online, nor that in RPG groups if a year ago you said "Have you played Scrolls?" most people would realize you were talking about ES. This seems reasonable to me... like if I created a new game called "Warcraft" that let you build siege weapons and launch attacks against castles filled with orcs. I would fully expect Blizzard to come after me. It isn't like they named the game "Frostraven Scrolls" or something clearly different. Just my 2 cents. Just communicating the fact that I am not weeping in agony for Mojang and their poor plight. [1] http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussion-forum/314675-turning-something-you-did-free-into-millions.html http://www.warriorforum.com/main-internet-marketing-discussi...

sharpneli 15y ago
I have a strong hunch that the response to "Have you played Scrolls?" would be "What?" "You know, Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall" (choose the right one) "Oh yeah I've played that, maybe bit too much."
- rkalla 15y ago
  That's a good point... maybe my prompting question was wrong. "Are you familiar with Scrolls lore" or "Scrolls style of play?" or "Do you like the Scrolls games?" maybe better options so they are grouped.
  - shabble 15y ago
    I've only ever heard it referred to in the plural sense as 'elder scrolls' series, across quite a wide variety of people. This is from casual players, console version players, d&d geeks, as well as the hardcore modding communities. In almost all cases someone refers to a specific game by its subtitle though, and noted above. I'm not sure many people would realise what you meant if you asked "Do you like the Scrolls games?", whereas s/Scrolls/Elder Scrolls/ and you'd have much higher recognition. I might try asking a few people and seeing how it actually works out, but IMO the names are sufficiently distinct as to not cause confusion.

Shenglong 15y ago

I was going to write a satirical comment pointing out how ridiculous this is, but I can't come up with anything that even semi-serious. Bethesda needs a PR team.

dangero 15y ago

Mojang has money, so no matter what this won't hurt him, but unless he's doing this for the publicity, he's making the wrong choice. Change the name of your unreleased game. Not that big a deal, and you'll save a lot of lawyer fees. Pick your battles. Of course, that is if he isn't attempting to use this as a publicity stunt. As some people mentioned, Mojang's project wasn't that well known prior to this incident.

Zimahl 15y ago

Remember, this isn't just about Mojang naming their game 'Scrolls', this is about them doing that AND applying for a trademark on the name 'Scrolls' for video games. If this was just about the name of a game then it wouldn't be much of an issue, Bethesda could just cover their TM by licensing it to them for how little or much they wanted to. But Mojang wants their own TM (to subjugate others) and that's where the lawyers are getting huffy. Frankly, I think he should just change the name of his game. Life is too short to deal with the headache and pay a bunch of lawyers to argue over this junk. 'Scrolls' doesn't seem like a great name anyways. Disclaimer: I love Minecraft and play it regularly, but I'm not interested in card-type strategy games. Therefore I won't probably even try a demo of 'Scrolls' (or whatever it ends up being called).

Zodiakos 15y ago
>But Mojang wants their own TM (to subjugate others) I'm not sure that the parenthetical remark is really warranted, since there are many other reasons to want a trademark, nearly all of them more useful than 'subjugating others'. Such as to prevent someone making sure that someone doesn't make a game called 'Scrolls: The Elders' - Basically, to prevent someone riding on the coattails of your success by riding your product brand name or dragging your brand into the mud with an inferior but confusingly similarly named product. The name Scrolls is neither of those things, which is why Bethesda is in the wrong here - both ethically, and most likely legally. I guess we'll see.

redthrowaway 15y ago

This seems like a really ill-conceived play on bethsoft's part. A month before the release of their biggest title in years, and they want to piss off gamers by suing someone universally loved by them? Why? What possible good could come of this for them? I would have thought the initial reaction to the story would have caused them to rethink their strategy, but they don't seem to care.

radu_floricica 15y ago
There is no such thing as bad publicity. And this one is really cheap. How else would I find out on HN that they're launching next month?
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  Bethesda doesn't need this kind of publicity; they're one of the biggest and most successful studios this side of EA or Activision. Skyrim has been hotly anticipated (and its release date announced) for about a year, now. I can see this having a minor effect on Skyrim sales, but I certainly can't see it having a positive one.

dustingetz 15y ago

i'm sure the suit is ridiculous and all, but why exactly does the Scrolls team think that defending this suit is in their business interests?

nknight 15y ago

I'd find a lawsuit over "Minecraft" at least as plausible as this nonsense. That the ActiLizzard has managed to keep its lawyers caged does not reflect well on Bethesda.