7 ms·

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

by zht 5y ago

wyc 5y ago
It's in our history to worry about it :')
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  There also the instructive examples of how such things were (and are) used in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Bloc, China...
zdragnar 5y ago
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but given history and human nature, it is not an unreasonable concern.
jcadam 5y ago
The main issue is if it's required. Not so worried about myself - I'm a veteran which means my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere :), but US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID."
- babypuncher 5y ago
  Everyone is already issued a social security number. I'm not sure how a more modern, cryptographic ally secure version would be any more concerning in this regard.
- xxpor 5y ago
  And yet, everyone suffers because of it. We have endless SSN breaches because at the end of the day, having a unique ID for people is really valuable! We could have something way safer, but we get stuck with the status quo which satisfies no one.
  - aaaaaaaaata 5y ago
    Use revokable public/private keypairs. The two options presented before my comment are not the only ones.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      I'd be perfectly fine with that. My ideal scenario would essentially be a national ID that's also a smart card with u2f/federation. I realize there's a ton of details with accessibility but like, we have the technology.
  - jcadam 5y ago
    There are ways to solve that problem whilst still protecting privacy, but there's no benefit in that for the ruling class. Once the infrastructure is in place, we all know governments would eventually use it to track all sorts of additional information/activity about us.
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      > use it to track all sorts of additional information/activity about us. They already do! There is so many quasi-national tracking and gov approved monopolies that they already get what they need. Everywhere is tracked with license plate scanners, so you can't go anywhere. Everyone realistically uses VISA or mastercard, so you can't buy anything. If you don't you're still probably banked and connected to credit agencies, so you can still be tracked. Good luck getting cash without the gov knowing. Just look at the IRS data. You register with the gov to drive, so your IDed already by someone. NSA et al. track god knows what about you across the internet and abroad, and where they don't go some ad network goes. I think the only thing that we don't track is guns... and thats probably something we should track.
      - jcadam 5y ago
        Everytime you buy a gun, a background check is run (via NICS). Records of said checks are supposed to be destroyed.... are they really?
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  A citizen database says who exists and how to contact them. Fingerprint and DNA are a completely different thing, and crazily intrusive to collect on a central location.
  - jcadam 5y ago
    Get a job that requires you to get a federal Common Access Card, and you'll get fingerprinted. DNA is collected on all military members. Ostensibly, they tell you it's to identify your remains if necessary. I'm sure it's used for that also :D The most intrusive thing they did to me was the polygraph :)
- brimble 5y ago
  We already need it. That's just the modern economy/world. So we get shitty ad-hoc solutions with bad security that waste tons of time and money, instead of a good one, because people are afraid of the good one. Not having a solution isn't an option.
- joshstrange 5y ago
  > US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID." Hard disagree. If you live in the US you have a connection to the federal government. I'm not saying everyone should have fingerprints or DNA on file but a national ID is something I'm fully behind. The shit show that is social security numbers, KYC, and other ways to identify a person are such a pain and for literally no good reason that I can see.
- jacobr1 5y ago
  We are so weird about this. We already have national "identifier" - the social security number. Pretty much everyone must use it because of both social security and taxes, but also due to private use cases. We should just admit this is the case and manage it better. The man-in-woods scenarios where one can opt-out are just not very realistic. Now as a matter of authentication - verifying the identifier, we have left this up to the states in the past, with opt-in federal IDs for various purposes. Though with RealID this is being standardized. Login.gov is a way to have a digital equivalent.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID." But every state has an ID system, and they're all known to each other, and tied to your SSN which is a national id number. We already essentially have all the parts, just messier. > my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere Same. Probably same for lots of people. > US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government We all have a connection... we live in the US!
  - jcadam 5y ago
    One of the big issues with instituting an income tax is it changed the relationship of every citizen with the government. Other than the postal service, the average citizen almost never dealt with the federal government directly. Now, everyone knows and despises/fears the IRS.
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      who cares ? Thats not the world any significant group of persons have every lived in? We first got an income tax during the civil war, and the 16th ammendment before the 1920s. Thats the relationship we've had with the government. How many people alive "almost never dealt with the federal government directly" at any point in their life?
- alistairSH 5y ago
  ...but US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government... By virtue of living here, you already have a connection. At minimum, you have to tax various taxes. If it's just Uncle Sam that's the problem, then we use something like RealID at the state level.
plandis 5y ago
Why would anyone want superfluous data stored by their government? What purpose does it have? In my mind, governments are like companies both are comprised of people making decisions which may or may not align with my personal interests. I want a GDPR for the government.
dimensi0nal 5y ago
the funny thing is we already have this. it's called Social Security, and it's absolutely useless as a national ID.
dpratt 5y ago
The top entry for the list of cumulative non-disease or old age causes of death in the 20th century is "murdered by own government". Anything we can do to help prevent that is a good thing.
- babypuncher 5y ago
  Interesting that you limit this claim to the century that saw two world wars and the largest ethnic extermination program in history. ID systems back then weren't any more thorough than the SSN every American is required to have and use for a litany of purposes today. I do not really see how replacing your SSN with a public/private key pair that you use to cryptographically sign tax returns, loan applications, or election ballots would make a repeat of World War II any more or less likely; I just see it making identity theft a lot harder. Any government that decides it has the will and power to start a genocide isn't going to be stopped by antiquated blue paper cards.
  - dpratt 5y ago
    "ID systems back then weren't any more thorough than the SSN every American is required to have and use for a litany of purposes today" would imply that a more formal way to record IDs, namely a centralized database of personal information would be an even more efficient way for a government to top the largest ethnic extermination program in history. And before you say "but that can never happen!", stop for a second and rethink that. It has happened many, many times in human history, and it will absolutely happen again somewhere unless we do our best to confound it.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - babypuncher 5y ago
      "a centralized database of personal information" already exists. That ship sailed a long time ago. The government issued your birth certificate and social security number. I'm advocating that we upgrade this with some semblance of security in mind, rather than continue to rely on an antiquated solution that was designed nearly a decade before the first electronic computer was turned on. Unless you want to argue that the lack of security is a feature, and that rampant identity theft is somehow stopping the US government from perpetrating the next holocaust.
kkielhofner 5y ago
When it comes down to it the US has a fear driven culture, down to what essentially becomes paranoia. US violent crime statistics are at near all-time lows. Yet I know many, many people that will not leave their house without at least one firearm. This is in small towns that haven't seen a violent crime justifying the use of deadly force in many years. Many of these same people refuse to "live in fear" of the coronavirus yet they live essentially petrified of violent crime to the point of carrying a deadly weapon for self-defense on their person at all times (not to mention the likely hundreds-thousands of rounds of ammunition and small arsenal they keep at home). We're terrified of a national ID "because big brother" yet almost no one cared or batted an eye at the Snowden revelations "because terrorism". 9/11 was 20 years ago and killed 3,000 people. Tragedy for sure but never before in human history has the trajectory and cultural makeup of a country (let alone a superpower) been so drastically altered by what is essentially a rounding error in terms of deaths in two decades. If warrantlessly surveilling an entire population isn't big government/brother I don't know what is. The ATF isn't allowed to have a searchable database because "the government is going to take away our guns" yet your entire life is accessible to the NSA. It's truly bizarre.
- akira2501 5y ago
  > yet they live essentially petrified of violent crime to the point of carrying a deadly weapon for self-defense on their person at all times That's an odd way of stating it. They're concerned, so they're arming themselves.. but continuing on with their lives. Sounds like the opposite of "petrified" to me.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    What's odd about saying it's completely innumerate to carry a gun on your person at all times? And don't for one second pretend Americans are "continuing on with their lives", what a joke; gun culture is huge in the US, people are absolutely obsessed with the things. Hardly a more obvious "not over it" situation exists than Americans and their guns.
  - kkielhofner 5y ago
    They won't go places (businesses, cities, etc) that don't allow guns. They routinely talk about and consider scenarios when, where, and how they'd fire on someone. They select clothes based on what will conceal a firearm (or select the daily firearm make/model based on what can be concealed with their clothing that day). It's clearly a major driving force in their lives. Perhaps petrified wasn't the best use of words. I'll suggest terrified as an alternative but the actual reality is all the same. I've been kidnapped and robbed at gunpoint in the US. I'm pretty sure if I had a firearm that situation would have been worse. I would have either gotten myself killed or suffered the trauma of killing someone and watching them die. This isn't a movie where you go bang and the bad guy cleanly falls to the ground. Death by firearm is brutal and changes you forever (as my ex-military friends will tell you). Life isn't Hollywood and anyone who thinks their life will be the same and just fine after using that weapon is either a bona fide psychopath or delusional. I also can't imagine waking up everyday and strapping a gun to myself just to leave the house. I'd consider that fear winning and an event that I've long sense gotten over continuing to have an outsized amount of control and power over me. I got out of my traumatic event losing an iPhone and $100. After a few months of initial PTSD my life hasn't changed one bit. I won.
AceJohnny2 5y ago
So does France, hence the existence there of the CNIL (Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertes) [1], formed in 1978, to enforce that. Because much of Europe has living memory of national registries used for fatal purposes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_nationale_de_l%27informatique_et_des_libertés https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_nationale_de_l%27in...
babypuncher 5y ago
Especially when we already have social security numbers, which are used for nefarious purposes by non-government entities all the time. And if you're over ~25, odds are your SSN is out in the wild thanks to Equifax. Replacing SSNs with an alternative built on public-key cryptography seems like the best way forward. I do not understand the opposition to this. Having citizens sign their tax returns, loan applications, etc. with their private key instead of just writing their SSN on it would eliminate most SSN-related identity theft and fraud.
someguyonhn42 5y ago
I have a healthy (hopefully) paranoia about the government in general. Recently found out my ssn and other info was leaked to the dark web™ (not shocked). one of the steps to rectify it is sign up with Login.gov. i'm actually glad this thing exits, its perfect timing for myself.
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203.
dang 5y ago
Please don't post snarky nationalistic flamebait to HN, regardless of which country or people you have a problem with. It's against the site guidelines because it leads to tedious, nasty flamewars, which we don't want here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203 and marked it off topic.

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

by zht 5y ago

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

wyc 5y ago

It's in our history to worry about it :')

Turing_Machine 5y ago
There also the instructive examples of how such things were (and are) used in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Bloc, China...

zdragnar 5y ago

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but given history and human nature, it is not an unreasonable concern.

jcadam 5y ago

The main issue is if it's required. Not so worried about myself - I'm a veteran which means my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere :), but US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID."

babypuncher 5y ago
Everyone is already issued a social security number. I'm not sure how a more modern, cryptographic ally secure version would be any more concerning in this regard.
xxpor 5y ago
And yet, everyone suffers because of it. We have endless SSN breaches because at the end of the day, having a unique ID for people is really valuable! We could have something way safer, but we get stuck with the status quo which satisfies no one.
- aaaaaaaaata 5y ago
  Use revokable public/private keypairs. The two options presented before my comment are not the only ones.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    I'd be perfectly fine with that. My ideal scenario would essentially be a national ID that's also a smart card with u2f/federation. I realize there's a ton of details with accessibility but like, we have the technology.
- jcadam 5y ago
  There are ways to solve that problem whilst still protecting privacy, but there's no benefit in that for the ruling class. Once the infrastructure is in place, we all know governments would eventually use it to track all sorts of additional information/activity about us.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > use it to track all sorts of additional information/activity about us. They already do! There is so many quasi-national tracking and gov approved monopolies that they already get what they need. Everywhere is tracked with license plate scanners, so you can't go anywhere. Everyone realistically uses VISA or mastercard, so you can't buy anything. If you don't you're still probably banked and connected to credit agencies, so you can still be tracked. Good luck getting cash without the gov knowing. Just look at the IRS data. You register with the gov to drive, so your IDed already by someone. NSA et al. track god knows what about you across the internet and abroad, and where they don't go some ad network goes. I think the only thing that we don't track is guns... and thats probably something we should track.
    - jcadam 5y ago
      Everytime you buy a gun, a background check is run (via NICS). Records of said checks are supposed to be destroyed.... are they really?
marcosdumay 5y ago
A citizen database says who exists and how to contact them. Fingerprint and DNA are a completely different thing, and crazily intrusive to collect on a central location.
- jcadam 5y ago
  Get a job that requires you to get a federal Common Access Card, and you'll get fingerprinted. DNA is collected on all military members. Ostensibly, they tell you it's to identify your remains if necessary. I'm sure it's used for that also :D The most intrusive thing they did to me was the polygraph :)
brimble 5y ago
We already need it. That's just the modern economy/world. So we get shitty ad-hoc solutions with bad security that waste tons of time and money, instead of a good one, because people are afraid of the good one. Not having a solution isn't an option.
joshstrange 5y ago
> US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID." Hard disagree. If you live in the US you have a connection to the federal government. I'm not saying everyone should have fingerprints or DNA on file but a national ID is something I'm fully behind. The shit show that is social security numbers, KYC, and other ways to identify a person are such a pain and for literally no good reason that I can see.
jacobr1 5y ago
We are so weird about this. We already have national "identifier" - the social security number. Pretty much everyone must use it because of both social security and taxes, but also due to private use cases. We should just admit this is the case and manage it better. The man-in-woods scenarios where one can opt-out are just not very realistic. Now as a matter of authentication - verifying the identifier, we have left this up to the states in the past, with opt-in federal IDs for various purposes. Though with RealID this is being standardized. Login.gov is a way to have a digital equivalent.
vineyardmike 5y ago
> the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID." But every state has an ID system, and they're all known to each other, and tied to your SSN which is a national id number. We already essentially have all the parts, just messier. > my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere Same. Probably same for lots of people. > US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government We all have a connection... we live in the US!
- jcadam 5y ago
  One of the big issues with instituting an income tax is it changed the relationship of every citizen with the government. Other than the postal service, the average citizen almost never dealt with the federal government directly. Now, everyone knows and despises/fears the IRS.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    who cares ? Thats not the world any significant group of persons have every lived in? We first got an income tax during the civil war, and the 16th ammendment before the 1920s. Thats the relationship we've had with the government. How many people alive "almost never dealt with the federal government directly" at any point in their life?
alistairSH 5y ago
...but US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government... By virtue of living here, you already have a connection. At minimum, you have to tax various taxes. If it's just Uncle Sam that's the problem, then we use something like RealID at the state level.

plandis 5y ago

Why would anyone want superfluous data stored by their government? What purpose does it have? In my mind, governments are like companies both are comprised of people making decisions which may or may not align with my personal interests. I want a GDPR for the government.

dimensi0nal 5y ago

the funny thing is we already have this. it's called Social Security, and it's absolutely useless as a national ID.

dpratt 5y ago

The top entry for the list of cumulative non-disease or old age causes of death in the 20th century is "murdered by own government". Anything we can do to help prevent that is a good thing.

babypuncher 5y ago
Interesting that you limit this claim to the century that saw two world wars and the largest ethnic extermination program in history. ID systems back then weren't any more thorough than the SSN every American is required to have and use for a litany of purposes today. I do not really see how replacing your SSN with a public/private key pair that you use to cryptographically sign tax returns, loan applications, or election ballots would make a repeat of World War II any more or less likely; I just see it making identity theft a lot harder. Any government that decides it has the will and power to start a genocide isn't going to be stopped by antiquated blue paper cards.
- dpratt 5y ago
  "ID systems back then weren't any more thorough than the SSN every American is required to have and use for a litany of purposes today" would imply that a more formal way to record IDs, namely a centralized database of personal information would be an even more efficient way for a government to top the largest ethnic extermination program in history. And before you say "but that can never happen!", stop for a second and rethink that. It has happened many, many times in human history, and it will absolutely happen again somewhere unless we do our best to confound it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - babypuncher 5y ago
    "a centralized database of personal information" already exists. That ship sailed a long time ago. The government issued your birth certificate and social security number. I'm advocating that we upgrade this with some semblance of security in mind, rather than continue to rely on an antiquated solution that was designed nearly a decade before the first electronic computer was turned on. Unless you want to argue that the lack of security is a feature, and that rampant identity theft is somehow stopping the US government from perpetrating the next holocaust.

kkielhofner 5y ago

When it comes down to it the US has a fear driven culture, down to what essentially becomes paranoia. US violent crime statistics are at near all-time lows. Yet I know many, many people that will not leave their house without at least one firearm. This is in small towns that haven't seen a violent crime justifying the use of deadly force in many years. Many of these same people refuse to "live in fear" of the coronavirus yet they live essentially petrified of violent crime to the point of carrying a deadly weapon for self-defense on their person at all times (not to mention the likely hundreds-thousands of rounds of ammunition and small arsenal they keep at home). We're terrified of a national ID "because big brother" yet almost no one cared or batted an eye at the Snowden revelations "because terrorism". 9/11 was 20 years ago and killed 3,000 people. Tragedy for sure but never before in human history has the trajectory and cultural makeup of a country (let alone a superpower) been so drastically altered by what is essentially a rounding error in terms of deaths in two decades. If warrantlessly surveilling an entire population isn't big government/brother I don't know what is. The ATF isn't allowed to have a searchable database because "the government is going to take away our guns" yet your entire life is accessible to the NSA. It's truly bizarre.

akira2501 5y ago
> yet they live essentially petrified of violent crime to the point of carrying a deadly weapon for self-defense on their person at all times That's an odd way of stating it. They're concerned, so they're arming themselves.. but continuing on with their lives. Sounds like the opposite of "petrified" to me.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  What's odd about saying it's completely innumerate to carry a gun on your person at all times? And don't for one second pretend Americans are "continuing on with their lives", what a joke; gun culture is huge in the US, people are absolutely obsessed with the things. Hardly a more obvious "not over it" situation exists than Americans and their guns.
- kkielhofner 5y ago
  They won't go places (businesses, cities, etc) that don't allow guns. They routinely talk about and consider scenarios when, where, and how they'd fire on someone. They select clothes based on what will conceal a firearm (or select the daily firearm make/model based on what can be concealed with their clothing that day). It's clearly a major driving force in their lives. Perhaps petrified wasn't the best use of words. I'll suggest terrified as an alternative but the actual reality is all the same. I've been kidnapped and robbed at gunpoint in the US. I'm pretty sure if I had a firearm that situation would have been worse. I would have either gotten myself killed or suffered the trauma of killing someone and watching them die. This isn't a movie where you go bang and the bad guy cleanly falls to the ground. Death by firearm is brutal and changes you forever (as my ex-military friends will tell you). Life isn't Hollywood and anyone who thinks their life will be the same and just fine after using that weapon is either a bona fide psychopath or delusional. I also can't imagine waking up everyday and strapping a gun to myself just to leave the house. I'd consider that fear winning and an event that I've long sense gotten over continuing to have an outsized amount of control and power over me. I got out of my traumatic event losing an iPhone and $100. After a few months of initial PTSD my life hasn't changed one bit. I won.

AceJohnny2 5y ago

So does France, hence the existence there of the CNIL (Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertes) [1], formed in 1978, to enforce that. Because much of Europe has living memory of national registries used for fatal purposes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_nationale_de_l%27informatique_et_des_libertés https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_nationale_de_l%27in...

babypuncher 5y ago

Especially when we already have social security numbers, which are used for nefarious purposes by non-government entities all the time. And if you're over ~25, odds are your SSN is out in the wild thanks to Equifax. Replacing SSNs with an alternative built on public-key cryptography seems like the best way forward. I do not understand the opposition to this. Having citizens sign their tax returns, loan applications, etc. with their private key instead of just writing their SSN on it would eliminate most SSN-related identity theft and fraud.

someguyonhn42 5y ago

I have a healthy (hopefully) paranoia about the government in general. Recently found out my ssn and other info was leaked to the dark web™ (not shocked). one of the steps to rectify it is sign up with Login.gov. i'm actually glad this thing exits, its perfect timing for myself.

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203.

dang 5y ago

Please don't post snarky nationalistic flamebait to HN, regardless of which country or people you have a problem with. It's against the site guidelines because it leads to tedious, nasty flamewars, which we don't want here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30431203 and marked it off topic.