6 ms·

> "results must be interpreted with caution given the low subject number and the fact that both participants practised the g-Tummo like breathing technique." [0

> "results must be interpreted with caution given the low subject number and the fact that both participants practised the g-Tummo like breathing technique." [0] Wim Hof not only claims that his method will keep one warm, but also a lot of other health benefits. Very few of these have any scientific backing. Hyperventilation's effects on inflammatory responses are well known. His claims regarding arthritis, MS or even Parkinson's are not only spurious at best to be kind in wording. I would personally call them bullshit. There is just no scientific evidence at all for these claims. Ensuring through deep breath that your chest muscles are moving and warming and by that warming your blood is nice - but not more. There are no studies scientifically researching the method with multiple subjects. Only studies that look at him (and his twin). So we have "studies" with n=2 and massive claims from him. While he sells his books/seminars/method. People have died attempting the Wim Hof Method (one example [1]). To me - this person is good at PR. Knows how to sell these days. And how to be a personal brand. I have to give credit for that. [0]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23328940.2017.1329001 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23328940.2017.1... [1]: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/wim-hof-breathing-method-coroner-man-drown-2436121 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/wim-hof-breathing-...

hammock 5y ago
>People have died attempting the Wim Hof Method (one example [1]). Does WH recommend using his method for breath-holding underwater? (I don't know) Hyperventilation causing deaths underwater is well-known and not specific to WHM
- Panino 5y ago
  > Does WH recommend using his method for breath-holding underwater? (I don't know) No, he explicitly says don't do that. Just one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCaZQqAs9I&t=56s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCaZQqAs9I&t=56s
colordrops 5y ago
Not having a scientific study backing something by default makes it bullshit? Was mindfulness meditation bullshit until scientists stamped it with their approval? It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare something neither true nor false until a study is done.
- hnfong 5y ago
  > It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare something neither true nor false until a study is done. That's how it's supposed to be done, but generally I don't see that happening... cough COVID19 cough. The GP did say that the "bullshit" note was their personal opinion though.
- Quekid5 5y ago
  The default is 'disbelief', yes. At least with grand claims and when no clear plausible mechanism of action, etc. etc. is proposed. As to whether 'bullshit' is justified, I dunno. I just see that as being a bit blunt phrasing-wise.
  - sdoering 5y ago
    That bluntness was the reason I clearly marked it as my personal opinion and not that of the scientific community. I like bluntness, as it often helps to cut to the core of things. But I try as best I can not to be blunt against people, but ideas/hypotheses.
    - Quekid5 5y ago
      ... but wasn't the OP saying the *claims* (specifically) were bullshit? That's what I'm reading in the OP comment now, but perhaps it was edited.
- icoder 5y ago
  I don't see them calling the practice bullshit, just the claims.
mandmandam 5y ago
I don't think this is remotely fair. Or true. It sounds like you have an axe to grind. Your own link speaks of multiple health benefits to hyperventilation and cold exposure, and of studies with multiple Non-Wim participants, even while coming across biased itself. As well, Wim constantly advises people clearly and consistently not to practice in water more than an inch deep by themselves. Constantly.
- n4r9 5y ago
  His website does have this claim: > The Wim Hof Method is also linked to reducing symptoms of diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease, asthma, sarcoidosis, vasculitis, and several autoimmune diseases. https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises No references cited, curious to know what it's based on. "Linked to" is quite a vague phrase.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    Just a guess as a fan of Wim, he could be relying on testimonial by workshop participants. Needs peer review, could be placebo, etc but that’s where science starts, noticing that some variable has an effect. Wim is not a scientist but he is excited to make claims that should be tested. To me it makes sense, my (non-expert) understanding is those diseases are cases where the body is attacking itself. The immune system is a balancing act, it is blind to what is really happening, it has to rely on a threshold of when to respond to what it senses as danger. When I breath hold and/or expose myself to cold, I feel like I am giving my body a small taste of death, recalibrating my body to what danger feels like.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
Wim Hof may be an n=1 case study, but he has subjected himself to an extraordinary amount of medical study. What is your expertise on this topic?
- can16358p 5y ago
  He also took completely untrained people, taught them his methods, than took them to top of Everest almost naked. This makes the study definitely n > 1.
  - mettamage 5y ago
    To the Everest? When? He took them to the Kilimanjaro, that one I know, I almost was part of it but chickened out (since altitude sickness might be a thing and some people did actually drop out from what I remember, in the first run no one dropped out though). He attempted the Everest himself and he had to go back. He said that mt. Everest was a different beast, the cold is way harsher there and he didn't even reach the death zone (8.5km). He almost got there though, in his shorts.
    - can16358p 5y ago
      Oh sorry he climbed some part of Everest himself, and took people to Kilimanjaro. My bad, confused two distinct events.
  - kritiko 5y ago
    Kilimanjaro, I think. Even Wim Hof hasn't summited Everest.
    - can16358p 5y ago
      You're right confused it. My bad. Yet rest of the argument applies.
  - sdoering 5y ago
    Nobody questioned the part about breathing oneself warm. There was even a plausible hypothesis towards the mechanism. But there is neither a plausible mechanism nor any data that gives credit to the health effects his teachings shall provide.
neatze 5y ago
Your claim that he is just a hack is false, I suggest you (re)read Win Hof's wiki article and review references. He is not a first nor the last human being who is able to endure extreme conditions that are/where perceive impossible in some cases.
can16358p 5y ago
People died doing the one thing what Wim constantly says NOT to do: practicing near a water that you can drown in. This isn't fault of Wim Hof method. He warns about the risk of fainting (which isn't a problem on its own) near a body of water (where fainting becomes a problem) all the time.
- mettamage 5y ago
  I agree, it's not a freedive method and shouldn't be used as such. If you do, you can die.
- sdoering 5y ago
  As far as I am aware he started issuing this warning (against practicing near/in water after people drowned).
mettamage 5y ago
I've met Wim Hof [1], his mind is not precise when it comes to scientific things. In that sense I'd recommend a huge caution to what he claims about the health benefits of his method. But hey, at least he's utilizing the placebo effect, and trust me, when you use his actual method for things it actually works for, you still want that placebo effect added to it as well ;-) Luckily though, he does recognize that to some extent. Because of that, he sometimes does research with actual scientists, and I have talked to a few of them. IMO those claims you can trust, or at least trust as much as any scientific claim. [1] Fun fact: one of the first comments I made on HN was about the WHM :)
andreilys 5y ago
Instead of relying on peer reviewed paper in Nature, why don’t you try it for yourself?

hammock 5y ago

>People have died attempting the Wim Hof Method (one example [1]). Does WH recommend using his method for breath-holding underwater? (I don't know) Hyperventilation causing deaths underwater is well-known and not specific to WHM

Panino 5y ago
> Does WH recommend using his method for breath-holding underwater? (I don't know) No, he explicitly says don't do that. Just one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCaZQqAs9I&t=56s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCaZQqAs9I&t=56s

colordrops 5y ago

Not having a scientific study backing something by default makes it bullshit? Was mindfulness meditation bullshit until scientists stamped it with their approval? It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare something neither true nor false until a study is done.

hnfong 5y ago
> It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare something neither true nor false until a study is done. That's how it's supposed to be done, but generally I don't see that happening... cough COVID19 cough. The GP did say that the "bullshit" note was their personal opinion though.
Quekid5 5y ago
The default is 'disbelief', yes. At least with grand claims and when no clear plausible mechanism of action, etc. etc. is proposed. As to whether 'bullshit' is justified, I dunno. I just see that as being a bit blunt phrasing-wise.
- sdoering 5y ago
  That bluntness was the reason I clearly marked it as my personal opinion and not that of the scientific community. I like bluntness, as it often helps to cut to the core of things. But I try as best I can not to be blunt against people, but ideas/hypotheses.
  - Quekid5 5y ago
    ... but wasn't the OP saying the *claims* (specifically) were bullshit? That's what I'm reading in the OP comment now, but perhaps it was edited.
icoder 5y ago
I don't see them calling the practice bullshit, just the claims.

mandmandam 5y ago

I don't think this is remotely fair. Or true. It sounds like you have an axe to grind. Your own link speaks of multiple health benefits to hyperventilation and cold exposure, and of studies with multiple Non-Wim participants, even while coming across biased itself. As well, Wim constantly advises people clearly and consistently not to practice in water more than an inch deep by themselves. Constantly.

n4r9 5y ago
His website does have this claim: > The Wim Hof Method is also linked to reducing symptoms of diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease, asthma, sarcoidosis, vasculitis, and several autoimmune diseases. https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises No references cited, curious to know what it's based on. "Linked to" is quite a vague phrase.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  Just a guess as a fan of Wim, he could be relying on testimonial by workshop participants. Needs peer review, could be placebo, etc but that’s where science starts, noticing that some variable has an effect. Wim is not a scientist but he is excited to make claims that should be tested. To me it makes sense, my (non-expert) understanding is those diseases are cases where the body is attacking itself. The immune system is a balancing act, it is blind to what is really happening, it has to rely on a threshold of when to respond to what it senses as danger. When I breath hold and/or expose myself to cold, I feel like I am giving my body a small taste of death, recalibrating my body to what danger feels like.

AlchemistCamp 5y ago

Wim Hof may be an n=1 case study, but he has subjected himself to an extraordinary amount of medical study. What is your expertise on this topic?

can16358p 5y ago
He also took completely untrained people, taught them his methods, than took them to top of Everest almost naked. This makes the study definitely n > 1.
- mettamage 5y ago
  To the Everest? When? He took them to the Kilimanjaro, that one I know, I almost was part of it but chickened out (since altitude sickness might be a thing and some people did actually drop out from what I remember, in the first run no one dropped out though). He attempted the Everest himself and he had to go back. He said that mt. Everest was a different beast, the cold is way harsher there and he didn't even reach the death zone (8.5km). He almost got there though, in his shorts.
  - can16358p 5y ago
    Oh sorry he climbed some part of Everest himself, and took people to Kilimanjaro. My bad, confused two distinct events.
- kritiko 5y ago
  Kilimanjaro, I think. Even Wim Hof hasn't summited Everest.
  - can16358p 5y ago
    You're right confused it. My bad. Yet rest of the argument applies.
- sdoering 5y ago
  Nobody questioned the part about breathing oneself warm. There was even a plausible hypothesis towards the mechanism. But there is neither a plausible mechanism nor any data that gives credit to the health effects his teachings shall provide.

neatze 5y ago

Your claim that he is just a hack is false, I suggest you (re)read Win Hof's wiki article and review references. He is not a first nor the last human being who is able to endure extreme conditions that are/where perceive impossible in some cases.

can16358p 5y ago

People died doing the one thing what Wim constantly says NOT to do: practicing near a water that you can drown in. This isn't fault of Wim Hof method. He warns about the risk of fainting (which isn't a problem on its own) near a body of water (where fainting becomes a problem) all the time.

mettamage 5y ago
I agree, it's not a freedive method and shouldn't be used as such. If you do, you can die.
sdoering 5y ago
As far as I am aware he started issuing this warning (against practicing near/in water after people drowned).

mettamage 5y ago

I've met Wim Hof [1], his mind is not precise when it comes to scientific things. In that sense I'd recommend a huge caution to what he claims about the health benefits of his method. But hey, at least he's utilizing the placebo effect, and trust me, when you use his actual method for things it actually works for, you still want that placebo effect added to it as well ;-) Luckily though, he does recognize that to some extent. Because of that, he sometimes does research with actual scientists, and I have talked to a few of them. IMO those claims you can trust, or at least trust as much as any scientific claim. [1] Fun fact: one of the first comments I made on HN was about the WHM :)

andreilys 5y ago

Instead of relying on peer reviewed paper in Nature, why don’t you try it for yourself?