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I agree. I'm in the same boat and I don't like remote work at all. It feeds into my weaknesses and reduces my strengths. I'm tired of all the talk about "You sh

I agree. I'm in the same boat and I don't like remote work at all. It feeds into my weaknesses and reduces my strengths. I'm tired of all the talk about "You should not rely on office for socializing". Forget socializing, I feel remote work is dissipating even the camaraderie that used to exist within teams at work. It is making mercenaries out of us.

71a54xd 5y ago
Yeah, the most depressing part of this is that I'm even jealous of the social camaraderie my finance roommate talks about having with the other analysts he spends late office nights with. At least he has the option of an office and people actually go. I'm even saying this as someone who'd admittedly sort of weird, not super social. If everything is remote, I'm tempted to give up on work socializing and just live with some friends of mine in the mountains in CO. After a certain age, you realize you can only form certain kinds of friendships by spending a lot of time with people struggling on similar problems. Granted, last year I attempted to start a company full remote and I was able to build sort of similar bonds, but it's way too hard to gauge people. Those efforts sort of faded after one of our founders turned out to be too emotionally unstable. But yeah. edit - but maybe at 27 this is really just me realizing I'm not that social, don't really like people and should maybe just move on from some kind of idealized social life...
- rakejake 5y ago
  It is simply much too hard to build connections when you are not face-to-face with someone. I have read countless articles and HN threads on introverts, extroverts, friendships, relationships, meetups etc, countless hours wasted on this topic and that is my pithy conclusion.
  - 71a54xd 5y ago
    Agree. Thank you for not using this as an opportunity to shill the metaverse :)
    - rakejake 5y ago
      Now why in the world would I do that?
      - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
        Passing stranger here, whenever these sorts of convos happen on here I like to try and imagine the implication, but not investigate further. Right now I’m assuming you’re the CEO of Metaversal, a fictional metaverse startup that wants to compete with Facebook via a subscription only model (open source code tho, ofc). Best of luck in your endeavors
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- landemva 5y ago
  ' give up on work socializing and just live with some friends of mine in the mountains ' Go do it. Now. Spend your free time chatting on the chairlifts and the whitewater parks and backcountry campsites.
  - weq 5y ago
    I caught a bull shark off my balcony this week. I have bush all around. I travelled the world BEFORE COVID and socialised in all the ways while people grabbed onto the dream and pushed foward with their careers. And now? My travelling the world helped me sort out what was important to me. I love to code, yet i dont like the rat race. I thank covid for allowing me to no longer have to FEIGN socialising to get ahead. I no longer have to be apart of the rat race, i can live and be wherever i want, and still change the world with my code. Covid lays bare like any other major tramaua to ones life would. 10yrs ago i did my back in; that was my kick start. I said if i could ever feel normal again, i would use that to go explore. and i did. Listen to your covid trauma, if its telling you that you have spent too much time chasing the rat-race, and lost the opportunity to nurture those life connections. dont wait. go connect. The meaning of life to me is love. No matter how much money you have, without love (of a thing, a friend, a person, a stranger) you have nothing.
MattGaiser 5y ago
> I feel remote work is dissipating even the camaraderie that used to exist within teams at work. To me this was a major benefit of remote. We went from a place with informal rules and influence to one that is more formal and thus easier for me to understand. The motivations of mercenaries are nice and simple and straightforward.
- rakejake 5y ago
  I feel this is why leetcode rules the roost in the tech industry. Maybe it used to be more about the "approach to the problem and the way the candidate communicates his/her/their thought process", but even when I'm interviewing I have a hard time convincing the others in the panel when the candidate does not present the exact solution even if it is clear they can code and are able to understand the problem. So what started as a way for a team to gauge the abilities of the candidate and more importantly if the candidate will play well in the team is now an examination with right/wrong answers supplemented by a half-assed "behavioral" interview with some canned questions.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    I've read the interview guides at some of my past organizations. The total outcome of the behavioural questions was essentially making sure they were not an ass. Interviewers frequently did not bother to write anything down for them. Everything else hinged on the leetcode/Java or Python trivia.
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    Just "their" is fine.
Buttons840 5y ago
> I'm tired of all the talk about "You should not rely on office for socializing" I've said similar things, but it's very important to note I'm saying that OTHERS should not force ME into the office to fulfill THEIR social needs. I'm happy working from home, and if push comes to shove, I'm saying that people's social needs should not be a consideration when deciding whether we all work from an office or from home. I think it's great for people to fulfill their social needs at work, but I have a problem if their social needs become the reason I'm force to set aside my own needs and go to the office.
- closeparen 5y ago
  A team is a condition of mutual obligation. Teams are not the only way of organizing the economy: we have already seen the rise of gig work in the service sector, and I expect that more mercenary models of remote work and contracting have a bright future on the white-collar side of things. But to the extent that I have the obligations of a teammate to you, I expect you to share in the obligations of a teammate to me.
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    Of course, but is fulfilling your social needs a requirement for being a good teammate? And does the team have any responsibility to me to allow me to work in a comfortable environment (from home)?
    - closeparen 5y ago
      Trust, respect, collaboration, mentorship, patience, sacrifice, etc. are services I am happy to perform for my in-office colleagues because they are real people really in front of my tickling the empathy parts of my ape brain, and I identify with them as my people. You are a rectangle on a computer screen. The same expectations apply but the ape-brain emotional supports do not kick in; it is more difficult and less pleasant work. We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me.
codegeek 5y ago
The point that the "100% remote at all cost brigade" miss is that we are human beings and humans require a mix of small talk and serious work to excel. You don't do that on slack with giphys and emojis. It sucks. I don't care about arguments against it. I personally prefer hybrid model where we should have flexibility to wfh but also be able to work in person with colleagues. The day we completely normalize 100% wfh, we might as well invent robots to do the job. Humans are not robots. We will never be. We need those small talk at times. I understand why the 100% remote gang don't like hybrid either because it still forces you to stay close to work. But if you want to be a digital nomad, you might as well freelance and not do full time. My opinion. Shameless plug: We are hiring in South Jersey/Philadelphia region for my edtech startup and if you are interested, hit me up. Various roles. Hybrid would be awesome.

71a54xd 5y ago

Yeah, the most depressing part of this is that I'm even jealous of the social camaraderie my finance roommate talks about having with the other analysts he spends late office nights with. At least he has the option of an office and people actually go. I'm even saying this as someone who'd admittedly sort of weird, not super social. If everything is remote, I'm tempted to give up on work socializing and just live with some friends of mine in the mountains in CO. After a certain age, you realize you can only form certain kinds of friendships by spending a lot of time with people struggling on similar problems. Granted, last year I attempted to start a company full remote and I was able to build sort of similar bonds, but it's way too hard to gauge people. Those efforts sort of faded after one of our founders turned out to be too emotionally unstable. But yeah. edit - but maybe at 27 this is really just me realizing I'm not that social, don't really like people and should maybe just move on from some kind of idealized social life...

rakejake 5y ago
It is simply much too hard to build connections when you are not face-to-face with someone. I have read countless articles and HN threads on introverts, extroverts, friendships, relationships, meetups etc, countless hours wasted on this topic and that is my pithy conclusion.
- 71a54xd 5y ago
  Agree. Thank you for not using this as an opportunity to shill the metaverse :)
  - rakejake 5y ago
    Now why in the world would I do that?
    - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
      Passing stranger here, whenever these sorts of convos happen on here I like to try and imagine the implication, but not investigate further. Right now I’m assuming you’re the CEO of Metaversal, a fictional metaverse startup that wants to compete with Facebook via a subscription only model (open source code tho, ofc). Best of luck in your endeavors
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
landemva 5y ago
' give up on work socializing and just live with some friends of mine in the mountains ' Go do it. Now. Spend your free time chatting on the chairlifts and the whitewater parks and backcountry campsites.
- weq 5y ago
  I caught a bull shark off my balcony this week. I have bush all around. I travelled the world BEFORE COVID and socialised in all the ways while people grabbed onto the dream and pushed foward with their careers. And now? My travelling the world helped me sort out what was important to me. I love to code, yet i dont like the rat race. I thank covid for allowing me to no longer have to FEIGN socialising to get ahead. I no longer have to be apart of the rat race, i can live and be wherever i want, and still change the world with my code. Covid lays bare like any other major tramaua to ones life would. 10yrs ago i did my back in; that was my kick start. I said if i could ever feel normal again, i would use that to go explore. and i did. Listen to your covid trauma, if its telling you that you have spent too much time chasing the rat-race, and lost the opportunity to nurture those life connections. dont wait. go connect. The meaning of life to me is love. No matter how much money you have, without love (of a thing, a friend, a person, a stranger) you have nothing.

MattGaiser 5y ago

> I feel remote work is dissipating even the camaraderie that used to exist within teams at work. To me this was a major benefit of remote. We went from a place with informal rules and influence to one that is more formal and thus easier for me to understand. The motivations of mercenaries are nice and simple and straightforward.

rakejake 5y ago
I feel this is why leetcode rules the roost in the tech industry. Maybe it used to be more about the "approach to the problem and the way the candidate communicates his/her/their thought process", but even when I'm interviewing I have a hard time convincing the others in the panel when the candidate does not present the exact solution even if it is clear they can code and are able to understand the problem. So what started as a way for a team to gauge the abilities of the candidate and more importantly if the candidate will play well in the team is now an examination with right/wrong answers supplemented by a half-assed "behavioral" interview with some canned questions.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I've read the interview guides at some of my past organizations. The total outcome of the behavioural questions was essentially making sure they were not an ass. Interviewers frequently did not bother to write anything down for them. Everything else hinged on the leetcode/Java or Python trivia.
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  Just "their" is fine.

Buttons840 5y ago

> I'm tired of all the talk about "You should not rely on office for socializing" I've said similar things, but it's very important to note I'm saying that OTHERS should not force ME into the office to fulfill THEIR social needs. I'm happy working from home, and if push comes to shove, I'm saying that people's social needs should not be a consideration when deciding whether we all work from an office or from home. I think it's great for people to fulfill their social needs at work, but I have a problem if their social needs become the reason I'm force to set aside my own needs and go to the office.

closeparen 5y ago
A team is a condition of mutual obligation. Teams are not the only way of organizing the economy: we have already seen the rise of gig work in the service sector, and I expect that more mercenary models of remote work and contracting have a bright future on the white-collar side of things. But to the extent that I have the obligations of a teammate to you, I expect you to share in the obligations of a teammate to me.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Of course, but is fulfilling your social needs a requirement for being a good teammate? And does the team have any responsibility to me to allow me to work in a comfortable environment (from home)?
  - closeparen 5y ago
    Trust, respect, collaboration, mentorship, patience, sacrifice, etc. are services I am happy to perform for my in-office colleagues because they are real people really in front of my tickling the empathy parts of my ape brain, and I identify with them as my people. You are a rectangle on a computer screen. The same expectations apply but the ape-brain emotional supports do not kick in; it is more difficult and less pleasant work. We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me.

codegeek 5y ago

The point that the "100% remote at all cost brigade" miss is that we are human beings and humans require a mix of small talk and serious work to excel. You don't do that on slack with giphys and emojis. It sucks. I don't care about arguments against it. I personally prefer hybrid model where we should have flexibility to wfh but also be able to work in person with colleagues. The day we completely normalize 100% wfh, we might as well invent robots to do the job. Humans are not robots. We will never be. We need those small talk at times. I understand why the 100% remote gang don't like hybrid either because it still forces you to stay close to work. But if you want to be a digital nomad, you might as well freelance and not do full time. My opinion. Shameless plug: We are hiring in South Jersey/Philadelphia region for my edtech startup and if you are interested, hit me up. Various roles. Hybrid would be awesome.