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Shouting at people during collaborative meetings is objectively toxic behavior. I'm not sure how else it could be seen unless one is themselves a shouter with n

Shouting at people during collaborative meetings is objectively toxic behavior. I'm not sure how else it could be seen unless one is themselves a shouter with no self-awareness.

gkop 5y ago
I disagree with parent, there is such thing as objectively toxic behavior. That said, defining what is and is not shouting, I have never seen that done objectively.
- gkop 5y ago
  Would somebody explain why I am wrong? I’m OK replacing “objective” with “intersubjective” if that’s it. But maybe it’s that people have seen shouting defined intersubjectively - if that’s it, would someone share an example definition of shouting that could be useful for intersubjectively labeling toxic behavior in a professional environment? My curiosity is in the spirit of this nearby comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30419969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30419969
  - _ea1k 5y ago
    I think that you make a fair point, tbh. Its easy to think that shouting is clearly defined, but we OPERATE IN AN ENVIRONMENT where people will think that I just shouted four words. One persons shouting can be another person's virtually normal tone but in a more tense discussion.
catach 5y ago
All value judgments are inherently subjective. The problem is that we don't have an easy term for "apparently near-universal consensus" which is what people tend to mean when calling value judgments objective.
- samhw 5y ago
  'Intersubjective' is that word (or 'intersubjective for the domain of all human beings'), if you want a technical term.
  - catach 5y ago
    Ah, quite nice. Thanks for that, new to me.
LandR 5y ago
> Shouting at people during collaborative meetings is objectively toxic behavior. Absolutely. I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to shout at another adult at work, I can't imagine being shouted at work either. In person, or on a web call. Hell, I don't even think I've had a shouting match with anyone outside of work. It just seems a silly way overall to try and resolve differences.
- throwaway09223 5y ago
  > I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to shout at another adult at work As an impartial observer I've seen several appropriate instances of an adult raising their voice over another adult. Usually related to some kind of repeated socially inappropriate behavior like offensive comments, interrupting, things that could be construed as harassment, comments which could create legal trouble, etc. A shouting match is something entirely different and is a really bad sign. But there are absolutely appropriate times to raise one's voice to speak over another, to correct something intolerable that demands immediate intervention. It shouldn't happen regularly. The underlying behaviors necessitating raised voices should be addressed, likely in a private setting. > It just seems a silly way overall to try and resolve differences. Yes, yelling is clearly not an appropriate tool for dispute resolution. But it does have a place.
  - mst 5y ago
    My favourite line manager and I were both extremely opinionated people, and once every six months or so we'd end up borrowing a conference room and having a straight up shouting match about a set of design decisions where we both had strongly held views on how it should be done. By the end of the shouting match though we'd pretty much always come up with a third design that was far better than either of the two we'd had in mind going in, and we both regarded it as a matter of passionate advocacy rather than being a personal attack. However, we were very much temperamentally suited to that dispute resolution approach, and neither of us would have ever attempt to use it with any of our other coworkers because none of them would've found it remotely pleasant. (to be clear, given the way Chris Lattner seems to have come away from the interaction feeling, somebody absolutely fucked up in this case, but it seemed worth noting that there do exist cases where things are different)
dkarl 5y ago
I'm sure you think the person you're responding to is just an apologist for toxic behavior, and you might be right, but it's true that different behaviors are insulting in different cultural contexts. What is toxic is feeling that you are being treated as less than, with less respect than other people, and that is communicated through behavior in the context of norms. "Shouting" is a word that seems safely toxic, but that's because it's a pretty elastic word that adjusts to the norms of the people using it. I personally came from an extremely quiet household, and I am often asked to speak louder (by my wife, my therapist, by my friends when we're at a noisy bar) while my parents often used to complain in restaurants that they had to "shout" to make themselves heard. When they came to visit me, I had to choose restaurants carefully. Eating in even a moderately noisy restaurant could be unpleasant for them, because speaking loudly enough to be heard in that environment had unpleasant emotional connotations for them. Growing up in a family like mine no doubt contributed to my social anxiety as a young adult because I constantly felt that everyone around me was shouting in an alarming way, but I learned to look around and see that there was no panic, no hard feelings, nothing except people speaking at the volume that was normal for them. Echoing and turn-taking can also vary dramatically by culture. My family were very strict turn-takers and did virtually no echoing at all. I have to go out of my way to echo back what people are saying, in a way that feels unnatural to me, so that they don't think I'm silently disagreeing and looking down on them. I also had to learn that people talking over the ends of my sentences is sometimes a calculated insult (as it would be in the household where I grew up) and sometimes just a cultural norm for them. Business is ruthlessly doing away with all forms of difference, of course, and I will venture a guess that you, like me, belong to a group with a lot of power to drive this erasure under the banner of progress, power that we avoid acknowledging whenever we can. Shared norms can help prevent misunderstandings, but it is the sameness that helps, not the superiority of one particular norm about (e.g.) speaking volume, and the people who are helped most by shared norms are the most powerful, who have no adjustment to make because their own norms become the ones that other people conform to. Chris Lattner is a smart and experienced person, and I have no doubt he judged his situation accurately. I just wanted to push back against your assertion that a behavior that someone might sincerely perceive as "shouting" is objectively toxic.
- llamataboot 5y ago
temp8964 5y ago
What if he repeatedly interrupted others? I am not saying this is what happened. Just to point out that people can be shouted at for good reasons.

Shouting at people during collaborative meetings is objectively toxic behavior. I'm not sure how else it could be seen unless one is themselves a shouter with no self-awareness.

gkop 5y ago

I disagree with parent, there is such thing as objectively toxic behavior. That said, defining what is and is not shouting, I have never seen that done objectively.

gkop 5y ago
Would somebody explain why I am wrong? I’m OK replacing “objective” with “intersubjective” if that’s it. But maybe it’s that people have seen shouting defined intersubjectively - if that’s it, would someone share an example definition of shouting that could be useful for intersubjectively labeling toxic behavior in a professional environment? My curiosity is in the spirit of this nearby comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30419969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30419969
- _ea1k 5y ago
  I think that you make a fair point, tbh. Its easy to think that shouting is clearly defined, but we OPERATE IN AN ENVIRONMENT where people will think that I just shouted four words. One persons shouting can be another person's virtually normal tone but in a more tense discussion.

catach 5y ago

All value judgments are inherently subjective. The problem is that we don't have an easy term for "apparently near-universal consensus" which is what people tend to mean when calling value judgments objective.

samhw 5y ago
'Intersubjective' is that word (or 'intersubjective for the domain of all human beings'), if you want a technical term.
- catach 5y ago
  Ah, quite nice. Thanks for that, new to me.

LandR 5y ago

> Shouting at people during collaborative meetings is objectively toxic behavior. Absolutely. I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to shout at another adult at work, I can't imagine being shouted at work either. In person, or on a web call. Hell, I don't even think I've had a shouting match with anyone outside of work. It just seems a silly way overall to try and resolve differences.

throwaway09223 5y ago
> I can't imagine a situation where I'd want to shout at another adult at work As an impartial observer I've seen several appropriate instances of an adult raising their voice over another adult. Usually related to some kind of repeated socially inappropriate behavior like offensive comments, interrupting, things that could be construed as harassment, comments which could create legal trouble, etc. A shouting match is something entirely different and is a really bad sign. But there are absolutely appropriate times to raise one's voice to speak over another, to correct something intolerable that demands immediate intervention. It shouldn't happen regularly. The underlying behaviors necessitating raised voices should be addressed, likely in a private setting. > It just seems a silly way overall to try and resolve differences. Yes, yelling is clearly not an appropriate tool for dispute resolution. But it does have a place.
- mst 5y ago
  My favourite line manager and I were both extremely opinionated people, and once every six months or so we'd end up borrowing a conference room and having a straight up shouting match about a set of design decisions where we both had strongly held views on how it should be done. By the end of the shouting match though we'd pretty much always come up with a third design that was far better than either of the two we'd had in mind going in, and we both regarded it as a matter of passionate advocacy rather than being a personal attack. However, we were very much temperamentally suited to that dispute resolution approach, and neither of us would have ever attempt to use it with any of our other coworkers because none of them would've found it remotely pleasant. (to be clear, given the way Chris Lattner seems to have come away from the interaction feeling, somebody absolutely fucked up in this case, but it seemed worth noting that there do exist cases where things are different)

dkarl 5y ago

I'm sure you think the person you're responding to is just an apologist for toxic behavior, and you might be right, but it's true that different behaviors are insulting in different cultural contexts. What is toxic is feeling that you are being treated as less than, with less respect than other people, and that is communicated through behavior in the context of norms. "Shouting" is a word that seems safely toxic, but that's because it's a pretty elastic word that adjusts to the norms of the people using it. I personally came from an extremely quiet household, and I am often asked to speak louder (by my wife, my therapist, by my friends when we're at a noisy bar) while my parents often used to complain in restaurants that they had to "shout" to make themselves heard. When they came to visit me, I had to choose restaurants carefully. Eating in even a moderately noisy restaurant could be unpleasant for them, because speaking loudly enough to be heard in that environment had unpleasant emotional connotations for them. Growing up in a family like mine no doubt contributed to my social anxiety as a young adult because I constantly felt that everyone around me was shouting in an alarming way, but I learned to look around and see that there was no panic, no hard feelings, nothing except people speaking at the volume that was normal for them. Echoing and turn-taking can also vary dramatically by culture. My family were very strict turn-takers and did virtually no echoing at all. I have to go out of my way to echo back what people are saying, in a way that feels unnatural to me, so that they don't think I'm silently disagreeing and looking down on them. I also had to learn that people talking over the ends of my sentences is sometimes a calculated insult (as it would be in the household where I grew up) and sometimes just a cultural norm for them. Business is ruthlessly doing away with all forms of difference, of course, and I will venture a guess that you, like me, belong to a group with a lot of power to drive this erasure under the banner of progress, power that we avoid acknowledging whenever we can. Shared norms can help prevent misunderstandings, but it is the sameness that helps, not the superiority of one particular norm about (e.g.) speaking volume, and the people who are helped most by shared norms are the most powerful, who have no adjustment to make because their own norms become the ones that other people conform to. Chris Lattner is a smart and experienced person, and I have no doubt he judged his situation accurately. I just wanted to push back against your assertion that a behavior that someone might sincerely perceive as "shouting" is objectively toxic.

llamataboot 5y ago

temp8964 5y ago

What if he repeatedly interrupted others? I am not saying this is what happened. Just to point out that people can be shouted at for good reasons.