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Dutch antitrust authority fines Apple for fifth time

187 points by keleftheriou 5y ago

djohnston 5y ago
Nice, Apple keeps dragging their feet and rolling out BS alternatives and eventually the whole EU is going to kick them in the teeth.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  There are probably a few devs at Apple trying to work something out, hearing conflicting things from the attorneys ("don't worry about it, we've got this") and their manager ("my boss wants something in case they don't got this"). There's probably a bunch of hardcoded bits about it, it needs to go through QA, all while not pissing on the attorney's parade. I've been one of those devs once. It wasn't nearly as high stakes though.
  - djohnston 5y ago
    As a SWE, the liklihood of my leaving is directly correlated with the frequency of my interactions with lawyers. There is such a desparate need for lawyers with a tech background.
    - withinboredom 5y ago
      Got sued once and another time I had to implement GDPR/CPRA compliant anonymization of terabytes of data. The latter involved weekly meetings with lawyers to go over the algorithms in layman's terms until we arrived at something they were happy with and felt they could defend it in court.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>Those weekly sanctions can reach--but not exceed--a total of €50 million ($56.7 million). does this mean it could read 50 million per week, or 50 million in total. I would assume per week, as in total does not seem reasonable, but the wording is ambiguous.
- wjnc 5y ago
  Total. Based on coverage in Dutch press. An issue I read about is that the sanctions can reach a maximum of a percentage of earnings (10%) but they need to take the exact legal entity into account. There are other ways in Dutch law to threaten firms with larger amounts but not all of those are open to the antitrust authority. A judge could threaten penalties that can escalate quickly when a company remains non complaint and even persons (in this case: directors) can be taken hostage for not complying. (Obviously, that is a last resort measure and not often used.) Dutch source [1] [1] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-dat-wel-indruk-op-apple-maakt/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-da...
  - slenk 5y ago
    $50M total? No one at Apple would notice
    - lucb1e 5y ago
      There are ~17 million inhabitants in NL, this concerns Apple devices only (I'd guess 30% market share, idk[1]), it concerns dating apps only, and Apple earns some 30% of any purchase. For this to not be a loss, every inhabitant (baby and grandma) would have to spend an average of 33 euros (33×17M×0.3×0.3=50M) on dating apps. For "nobody to notice" at Apple, multiply 33 euros by a factor of your fancy. [1] edit: guess was correct https://www.statista.com/statistics/744305/market-share-of-leading-smartphone-brands-in-the-netherlands/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/744305/market-share-of-l...
    - tremon 5y ago
      From the same link: "In an earlier case [1] the judge blew a gasket when IBM refused to honour a wrongful dismissal verdict, and kept paying the imposed damages but refused to re-hire the employee: the damages were subsequently raised from €50k to €5 million. If the employee still would not have been returned to his job, the fine could have been raised even more, as there is no legal limit to imposed liquidated damages, as long as the fines are proportional to the case. And what is considered proportional can easily grow to very large sums when you repeatedly ignore a court order" [1] that case had a very nice summary title: paying damages does not equate to adhering to the verdict; contempt of court
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Just a simple math question: Is keeping the in-app purchasing regime from collapsing worth more than $50 million to them? Yep. Even if the Dutch revenue isn't that much, once one country succeeds the rest will follow that model. Apple and Google are just going to delay as much as possible, and when their delay tactics no longer work, eat the fines until they're higher than the profits.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  I somehow doubt IAP revenue with dating apps in the Netherlands >= 5 million EUR a week.
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    The issue is the global revenue: If any country can get them to forego 30% profits, the rest will follow in short order.
    - withinboredom 5y ago
      I thought the issue was in regards to laws surrounding dating apps and not generalized? FWIW, here, some NL specific apps just accept a direct bank transfer without any IAP, right in the app. Apple reviewers don't seem to care.
      - ummonk 5y ago
        After the ruling, Apple has been requiring the dating app companies to create NL specific apps if they wish to use third party payment processors. They’re getting fined for this.
    - yreg 5y ago
      Perhaps they could kick dating apps out of the Dutch App Store.
      - tremon 5y ago
mrtranscendence 5y ago
> I agree with mobile app business guru Eric Seufert that the impact of Apple's ATT (anti-ad-tracking) policy on Shopify's stock price raises concerns about how small and medium-sized businesses (many of which rely on Shopify) suffer under the Apple tyranny. Cry me a river. Letting people control how they're tracked isn't "tyranny". > I think Apple's conduct following the ACM decision is above board. Sort of hardball, but not out of line--and not entirely without merit. Really? "Sort of" hardball? Apple's absolutely giving the finger to Dutch authorities. They're not even complying with the letter of the ruling, let alone its intent. C'mon.
- ummonk 5y ago
  They did comply with the ruling by allowing companies to submit apps for the Dutch market that use third party payment processors (albeit with the 27% fee which the ruling did not seem to have an issue with). The Dutch ACM is now trying to make its ruling apply extraterritorially by rejecting Apple’s solution of allowing a Netherlands-specific app.
  - malermeister 5y ago
    What about dutch developers trying to publish outside the Netherlands? Shouldn't the Netherlands still have jurisdiction based on the Nationality Principle?
    - ummonk 5y ago
      No. The authority is for the Dutch consumer market. Hence why the US-based Match Group was able to bring this complaint in the first place.
    - jonwachob91 5y ago
      If tech companies and nation states started enforcing/obeying laws based on the Nationality Principle, then FB/Google/AMZN and other data collecting firms would be allowed to ignore GDPR on the principal that the developers are in the US and thus they don't have to follow local laws. That's one example, but there are numerous others, some worse and some harmless. Either way, it's a problem for everyone. What laws do you follow, which laws are enforced, how many laws are being broken by a developer that is just trying to publish a fun app. There are ways for a government to project their laws on another nation, but Nationality Principle is not one of them. An example of one country projecting laws onto other countries are the US Anti-Money Laundering laws that the US doesn't even follow but they demand every foreign government that uses USD to follow.
orra 5y ago
fosspatents? I strongly remember this alleged FOSS supporter shilling for Oracle back in the day of the Oracle v. Google case. On the topic of the article: good. Apple was clearly taking the piss by charging 27% for not processing payments, immediately after being told by a legal authority that a 30% cut on in app payments was anticompetitive.
- rosndo 5y ago
  > authority that a 30% cut on in app payments was anticompetitive. You’re coming up with stuff. This was never about the apple tax.
- mda 5y ago
  Yeah, site was a paid shill, "FOSS" name is basically a joke. I would not trust anything that they write.
- ksec 5y ago
  I remember people said the same thing when they were covering Apple vs Samsung.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> Those weekly sanctions can reach--but not exceed--a total of €50 million ($56.7 million). That's "sofa-cushion money" for Apple. I have a feeling that they'll just pay it, and carry on as usual.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mortenjorck 5y ago
  It reminds me of a notorious bar here in Chicago that has continued to allow indoor smoking ever since the city's 2008 ban went into effect. The popular understanding is that they just keep paying the fines as a cost of doing business.
  - TillE 5y ago
    That's a pretty odd situation, since in most cases a repeated health violations like that would lead to your license(s) getting pulled.
  - vmception 5y ago
    There are a variety in Los Angeles that stayed open during the entire pandemic and just kept paying the fines. Some were pretty clear about having debts and expenses, they got the fines and weren't like condemned or anything stricter. (So its always been possible to have a midwestern or Florida experience even in LA county, which has been widely reported as having strict requirements, but its not really anybody's day to day experience)
  - selectodude 5y ago
    Well, Richards is a cop bar that’s pretty well connected. I’m not sure they’re paying too many fines.
- kingcharles 5y ago
  Is the only relief available monetary? Can the government not get an injunction? Otherwise, if I were EvilCorp Inc, then I would just keep doing my thing and paying the Dutch government their "tax".
silvercove 5y ago
conor_f 5y ago
I heard a point recently about driving in bus lanes as a private car: If it's just a repeated fine with no further consequence, it's not a fine but a cost. What happens next?
- lucb1e 5y ago
  This is the Nth top comment saying the same thing (and it's also repetitive across sanction threads, open any thread where $bigcorp got a monetary fine). There have been good replies already posted to other subthreads here, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420874 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420630
  - conor_f 5y ago
    Sorry, my comment may have appeared relatively thoughtless but you've hit upon the crux of the point, right? If this is the Nth top comment saying the same thing, and if it is so commonly asked in similar situations, then what actually is the consequence? What actually is happening next? As far as I've seen, not a whole lot? I'll also make explicit what I thought was implicitly implied in my first comment, what do people think should happen next in these situations?
    - dolni 5y ago
      I'm "people", so I guess I'll chime in with my opinion. Laws exist because we, as a society, decided that we want to live by a certain set of rules. If the rules are not upheld, law becomes less useful. Some actors in our society follow the law because they see it is the right thing to do. A lot of actors are willing to make exceptions for this thing or that thing (e.g. speeding). Some actors don't give a damn what the law says, they're only motivated by the possibility of being caught and the subsequent punishment. And lastly, there are actors who just do what they want, punishment be damned. I would argue that corporations generally fall into the third category. They weigh the likelihood of being caught against the punishment (fine) they will receive. Regarding punishments, I think they generally ought to be the lightest possible punishment that forces compliance. Two things follow from that. One, that a punishment must be tailored to the infringer. If the infringer has a lot of money, the fines need to match. Two, that means subsequent punishments for the same infraction _necessarily_ must be harsher. The lesser punishment didn't work last time, so it must be increased. All of this to say that Apple's fine for this should be absolutely staggering. Apple could ignore staggering fines and simply not do business in countries that issue such fines. But you can only do that a few times before it starts to catch up with you.
amelius 5y ago
The best way to punish a company is to take away their trademarks and logos. Perhaps we should have a three-strikes policy. After the first strike, your company logo gets one bite taken out of it. Second strike, one more bite. Third strike, your logo is gone.
- pydry 5y ago
  Fining them lots of money doesnt seem like such a bad plan.
- johnebgd 5y ago
  That’d do great things for consumers who don’t know about trademark law and suddenly start buying fake apple products at fake apple stores only to have their identity stolen and/or their bank account drained…
  - Beached 5y ago
    but on the other hand, the damage done to the brand as a result would be enormous.
    - hda2 5y ago
      yep, just warn citizens that the country will no longer be protecting Apple's IPs. Apple is now generic. Anyone buying apple products is responsible for the damages he or she sustains.
    - MichaelApproved 5y ago
      And the damage done to consumers would also be enormous. For whatever faults they might have, the regulations are intended to protect consumers, not harm them with a scorched earth plan out of a libertarian fantasy. There are plenty of ways you can punish a company for wrongdoing without risking the consumer as much as that idea would.
    - square_usual 5y ago
      Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
ivoras 5y ago
$5 million is peanuts for Apple. It would probably do the prosecutors good to take inspiration from the old chessboard legend and fine them 2x the last fine for each repeated case.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  Better yet, penalize them using percentages of their total revenue. Best is to just drop fines as penalties and change them to something that companies will actually pay attention to.
mullingitover 5y ago
Apple giving the 3% discount for alternate payment processors seems extremely generous in Europe, given that Europe caps payment processing fees at extremely low rates compared to the US[1]: > As a general rule, the Regulation will cap interchange fees at 0.2% of the transaction value for consumer debit cards and at 0.3% for consumer credit cards. For consumer debit cards, it also gives flexibility to Member States to define lower percentage caps and impose maximum fee amounts. So, if anything, Apple is giving a 10x discount for the alternative payment processor. Somehow the Dutch authorities seem to want payment processing to be worth .3% of transactions, unless you're Apple, in which case they want them to be worth 100x as much, and at the same time the platform/SDK licensing Apple provides to be defined as worthless. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/hr/IP_15_4585 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/hr/IP_15_...
- joshuaissac 5y ago
  The caps you quoted are for credit and debit cards. Stripe, for example, charges 1.4%-2.9% in Europe.
  - mullingitover 5y ago
    That's a fair point - looks like that's because Stripe is including an array of services that add value beyond basic interchange fees, similar to Apple Pay's included merchant services?
- thayne 5y ago
  > the platform/SDK licensing Apple provides to be defined as worthless. There's still the apple developer fee. Also, the value of the platform is itself increased by the apps made for it. Without third party apps, iOS devices would be less appealing to consumers.
  - mullingitover 5y ago
    > Without third party apps, iOS devices would be less appealing to consumers. I understand this argument, however let's not forget that it's a two way street. People were buying iPhones by the millions well before a single app was sold on the platform, and there are other platforms that the third party apps could publish on. They choose to publish on iOS because, for vast numbers of developers, it is a very profitable platform for them to transact on.
Razengan 5y ago
“Dating” apps have pretty sleazy and predatory practices. Their very existence depends on them being bad at their purpose! (i.e. when a person finds a partner they will stop using the app) Tinder (child of Match.com, one of the parties in the coalition against Apple) charges certain demographics (males) higher for the same services and have other underhanded tactics to nickle-and-dime users, like charging for read-receipts! Features like visibility boosts are a gamble and they may very well do nothing at all some times. The beauty of Apple’s in-app purchase system is that if a user feels gypped by an app they can request a refund, and most of the time Apple will grant it without question, so it’s no wonder that companies with predatory business models would be the loudest voice for circumventing user protections. No matter how you feel about Apple, there are worse wolves in the woods. Let’s not empower the likes of Tinder/Match. They are not the betrodden underdog in any shape or form.
- muro 5y ago
  Behaving in customer's interest (in this case Apple issuing refunds) doesn't give a free pass to prevent competition. If Tinder/Match break the consumer protection laws on how they process payments, they should be investigated and prosecuted accordingly.
zgs 5y ago
Until the fine is based on percentage of revenue or something that hurts the company, it will be ignored. Trivial amounts like this are irrelevant to a company as large as Apple. They are just a cost of doing business.
- krono 5y ago
  New fines can be stacked on infinitely - there is no technical limit. If no satisfactory solution of their own design is forthcoming they could be charged with contempt of court, or, eventually, even be bound to a specific solution implementation that will be provided for them by court. Source article (in Dutch): https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-dat-wel-indruk-op-apple-maakt/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-da...
ksec 5y ago
Apple is basically giving the middle finger to the Dutch Authorities. Perfectly inline with their attitude around the world ( apart from China ). And Apple Supporters on Macrumors and 9to5Mac are calling for Apple to pull out of the Netherland. Along with other countries which does not comply with Apple's terms. I wish there is some sort of Dutch polling group to send out public survey asking the Dutch people: Apple is the biggest and perhaps the best company in the world, however the Dutch court disagrees with how Apple are charging Dutch business 30% on Apps and Services and given no other choice of payment processor. Should the Dutch Court continue its ruling and authority, Apple may threaten to leave the Netherland which leaves iPhone user with no support and no future Apple product in Netherland. Netherland is only a small country with 17M population. Even if every single population owns an iPhone it account to less than 1.7% of total iPhone users. A rounding error for the biggest company in the world. Should the Dutch Court continue its proceeding it may ultimately have a negative effect on Dutch citizens. Along with Dutch business without access to Apple's iPhone App Store market. Should the Dutch court drop the case against Apple? Yes or No.
- advanderveer 5y ago
  No, we are a sovereign nation. We've build it over hundreds of years into a place of great stability. Apple is only a corporation that has been around for ~60 years.
  - DeathArrow 5y ago
    >No, we are a sovereign nation. De jure or de facto?
    - advanderveer 5y ago
      In today's a world of hyper globalisation is any nation still truly independent?
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  >Perfectly inline with their attitude around the world ( apart from China ). That's because the Chinese would shut their market to Apple if they would misbehave.
Mo3 5y ago
So I have been living in the Netherlands for a year or so now and this makes perfect sense judging from seeing Dutch mentality and how they handle police work, law issues, fines, etc. The Dutch always try to avoid making big deals out of anything that does not need to. This starts with the police being extremely well trained, but actively not engaging in anything until it is really needed and just keeping an eye on everything - one mentionable experience was a mentally unwell homeless man in Amsterdam who posed a very obvious threat to public safety by being violent and aggressive towards pedestrians - they showed up before I even realized they were needed, but then just took that guy (who was preparing to assault a random man walking by) to the side, and then had a 20 minute conversation with him, figured out what the reason for his anger was and then left again. The guy just sat down and looked at the ground until his tram arrived… that was already quite weird to see but if it works out I thought.. The next memorable experience being the time where I actually completely forgot to file my annual tax statement and, to make matters worse, completely forgot to declare a not small sum of money. I then paid what I thought I owned (3 weeks too late, not one word about it just a nicely worded acknowledgement mail once I did..), left the country for a few months and then returned to find some reminders from them with the very polite note to have a look and check if that is really correct - mind you… in my home country the IRS equivalent would have their best men on me at that point - I did check and got some serious anxiety once I saw that I really did not declare it and it actually looked 100% like I was trying to hide the income on purpose.. Guess what they said when I called them with my eyes tearing up and me imagining how much lube I need for this to not hurt.. “First of all, please calm down Mr., your Dutch is very good by the way! Let’s see.. that will be 3% on the amount due, plus 65€ fee for also submitting the report too late. But guess what, it looks like we forgot to calculate all that stuff you submitted for using your apartment to work, so we actually owe you 3k! You'll get it soon, and for next time try to submit your report on time, you don’t want to pay 65€ every year now do you hahahaha” The stories just goes on like the time where they caught me technically importing hard drugs on the plane (amphetamines without prescription on my person) and just let me go laughing about it.. or that time where I had to defend my girlfriend from some asshole and I think I broke his nose and they just came (like 20 seconds later), had a look, the other guy just stumbled around, they asked him in Dutch if he thinks he did something wrong, him saying yes sir and them literally saying “I think your parents raised you better than that, no?“ That guy looked like he was about to start crying and that was the end of that story. He apologized to me and my girlfriend on his own accord, told me that I had an insane punch and I told him that I wouldn’t have punched that hard it he wasn’t as attractive and big of a danger to my masculinity and we had a good laugh and went our ways. This just keeps going on and on, nowadays I live in a less „active“ area in Rotterdam right by the harbor but the Dutch mentality is omnipresent in anything and it really makes life so much more enjoyable. And guess what, you can be absolutely fucking sure I make it a point to file and pay my taxes on time, not because it costs 65€ every year but because the symbolic value behind it is so much bigger.. I was awarded a level of respect and humanness and the thought of having to talk to that nice Dutch lady again and her being disappointed for me to have to pay the 65€ again is just not nice. It sounds completely crazy but if you are being treated this way (even if not always) there is no anger or the need to oppose the government any more. You are one of their people, you want to act as such by yourself too. Now that leads me to the point I was actually trying to make, sorry for the ramble, this mentality, obviously, starts to completely and utterly fail when there are businesses like Apple involved that do not have any sense of personal responsibility. The symbolic fines will prove completely useless and are laughed at, but the Dutch will refuse deviating from this strategy. They would rather try this 5 times after another, and then a sixth time, because the whole country does only exist today because at some point everybody had to give up their ego and start working together as a country in order to deal with the water - which as far as I know produced sayings like „We are all in the same boat“. Really, I would argue that companies like Apple do not have sufficient moral values to operate in that kind of responsibility, but the Dutch will uphold theirs anyway, and if it needs to be this will go on just like this for a very long time until someone is burdened with the task of thinking about real consequences, and even then it will probably not what Apple would deserve, just the bare minimum to get them to at least comply with this stupid shit. Another thing seemingly completely incomprehensible to this society, that you would make that kind of a big deal about in the end idiotically small issues as present here. On another note, I have since moved to a less active part of the country, but the surprises don’t stop, they just change. Last weekend there was Storm Eunice, 100+mph.. I think classified as Hurricane, the Dutch do not see this is any kind of special event it seems, or at most as unusual.. I was sitting in the house, truly scared, I looked outside and there were still people going for walks and riding their bicycles (although with great problems). I opened the apartment door and it fucking shot open and slammed so hard against the wall behind it that the paint layer sprung off, to which a passerby reminded me to be careful as there was a storm right now… Last story since this happened today again. A few days after I moved into this apartment, I got woken up by a very loud and heavy continuous sound. I got up, went into the kitchen and outside to the terrace, the sound now being deafeningly loud. I looked up and almost shit my pants. Maybe 300ft above my head, if not less, there was.. a fucking APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTER hovering above the house. A real life fucking Apache. In a relatively peaceful residential area. I couldn’t believe it. There were neighbors outside as well, they did not seem to notice. I said Hi and asked what’s going on? They did not seem to realize what I was on about either and I pointed at the god damn attack helicopter above their heads. They looked at it for a second, and then replied „So what? Is this not compatible with your view of the Netherlands?“ Now try to find a reply to that. The Apache is still.. simply around sometimes like today, and I still cannot comprehend the mindset required for god damn attack helicopters sitting above a residential area to be not even noteworthy any more, but that's how it is. Nothing else to mention. There is simply an Apache attack helicopter, sometimes also a pair of Ospreys or F15s flying very low above this residential area and doing whatever they do. That's just how it is. I got the Apache pilot to wave back once, I guess that was pretty cool but that is just how it is. And now if you consider that almost the whole country is actually several dozen feet under sea level and the only reason it exists as it does.. is because there is a huge network of pumps continuously pumping out the water, day in and day out, and if it was not for these pumps a big percentage of this country would be deep under water, and noone even mentions it or thinks about it because thats just how it is. If you just let this be for a second and try to not go crazy over the insane, absolutely batshit crazy level of mind required to decide this is worth it, you will start to see why the Dutch are where they are and why this issue and Apple itself are being so stupid it is not compatible with this society… Because at the level of lack of morality and sense of responsibility that Apple operates at the Dutch would not have survived. Please, Apple, just fucking do this stupid shit, you don’t deserve the treatment you get.

187 points by keleftheriou 5y ago

Nice, Apple keeps dragging their feet and rolling out BS alternatives and eventually the whole EU is going to kick them in the teeth.

withinboredom 5y ago
There are probably a few devs at Apple trying to work something out, hearing conflicting things from the attorneys ("don't worry about it, we've got this") and their manager ("my boss wants something in case they don't got this"). There's probably a bunch of hardcoded bits about it, it needs to go through QA, all while not pissing on the attorney's parade. I've been one of those devs once. It wasn't nearly as high stakes though.
- djohnston 5y ago
  As a SWE, the liklihood of my leaving is directly correlated with the frequency of my interactions with lawyers. There is such a desparate need for lawyers with a tech background.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    Got sued once and another time I had to implement GDPR/CPRA compliant anonymization of terabytes of data. The latter involved weekly meetings with lawyers to go over the algorithms in layman's terms until we arrived at something they were happy with and felt they could defend it in court.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>Those weekly sanctions can reach--but not exceed--a total of €50 million ($56.7 million). does this mean it could read 50 million per week, or 50 million in total. I would assume per week, as in total does not seem reasonable, but the wording is ambiguous.

wjnc 5y ago
Total. Based on coverage in Dutch press. An issue I read about is that the sanctions can reach a maximum of a percentage of earnings (10%) but they need to take the exact legal entity into account. There are other ways in Dutch law to threaten firms with larger amounts but not all of those are open to the antitrust authority. A judge could threaten penalties that can escalate quickly when a company remains non complaint and even persons (in this case: directors) can be taken hostage for not complying. (Obviously, that is a last resort measure and not often used.) Dutch source [1] [1] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-dat-wel-indruk-op-apple-maakt/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-da...
- slenk 5y ago
  $50M total? No one at Apple would notice
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    There are ~17 million inhabitants in NL, this concerns Apple devices only (I'd guess 30% market share, idk[1]), it concerns dating apps only, and Apple earns some 30% of any purchase. For this to not be a loss, every inhabitant (baby and grandma) would have to spend an average of 33 euros (33×17M×0.3×0.3=50M) on dating apps. For "nobody to notice" at Apple, multiply 33 euros by a factor of your fancy. [1] edit: guess was correct https://www.statista.com/statistics/744305/market-share-of-leading-smartphone-brands-in-the-netherlands/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/744305/market-share-of-l...
  - tremon 5y ago
    From the same link: "In an earlier case [1] the judge blew a gasket when IBM refused to honour a wrongful dismissal verdict, and kept paying the imposed damages but refused to re-hire the employee: the damages were subsequently raised from €50k to €5 million. If the employee still would not have been returned to his job, the fine could have been raised even more, as there is no legal limit to imposed liquidated damages, as long as the fines are proportional to the case. And what is considered proportional can easily grow to very large sums when you repeatedly ignore a court order" [1] that case had a very nice summary title: paying damages does not equate to adhering to the verdict; contempt of court

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

Just a simple math question: Is keeping the in-app purchasing regime from collapsing worth more than $50 million to them? Yep. Even if the Dutch revenue isn't that much, once one country succeeds the rest will follow that model. Apple and Google are just going to delay as much as possible, and when their delay tactics no longer work, eat the fines until they're higher than the profits.

withinboredom 5y ago
I somehow doubt IAP revenue with dating apps in the Netherlands >= 5 million EUR a week.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  The issue is the global revenue: If any country can get them to forego 30% profits, the rest will follow in short order.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    I thought the issue was in regards to laws surrounding dating apps and not generalized? FWIW, here, some NL specific apps just accept a direct bank transfer without any IAP, right in the app. Apple reviewers don't seem to care.
    - ummonk 5y ago
      After the ruling, Apple has been requiring the dating app companies to create NL specific apps if they wish to use third party payment processors. They’re getting fined for this.
  - yreg 5y ago
    Perhaps they could kick dating apps out of the Dutch App Store.
    - tremon 5y ago

mrtranscendence 5y ago

> I agree with mobile app business guru Eric Seufert that the impact of Apple's ATT (anti-ad-tracking) policy on Shopify's stock price raises concerns about how small and medium-sized businesses (many of which rely on Shopify) suffer under the Apple tyranny. Cry me a river. Letting people control how they're tracked isn't "tyranny". > I think Apple's conduct following the ACM decision is above board. Sort of hardball, but not out of line--and not entirely without merit. Really? "Sort of" hardball? Apple's absolutely giving the finger to Dutch authorities. They're not even complying with the letter of the ruling, let alone its intent. C'mon.

ummonk 5y ago
They did comply with the ruling by allowing companies to submit apps for the Dutch market that use third party payment processors (albeit with the 27% fee which the ruling did not seem to have an issue with). The Dutch ACM is now trying to make its ruling apply extraterritorially by rejecting Apple’s solution of allowing a Netherlands-specific app.
- malermeister 5y ago
  What about dutch developers trying to publish outside the Netherlands? Shouldn't the Netherlands still have jurisdiction based on the Nationality Principle?
  - ummonk 5y ago
    No. The authority is for the Dutch consumer market. Hence why the US-based Match Group was able to bring this complaint in the first place.
  - jonwachob91 5y ago
    If tech companies and nation states started enforcing/obeying laws based on the Nationality Principle, then FB/Google/AMZN and other data collecting firms would be allowed to ignore GDPR on the principal that the developers are in the US and thus they don't have to follow local laws. That's one example, but there are numerous others, some worse and some harmless. Either way, it's a problem for everyone. What laws do you follow, which laws are enforced, how many laws are being broken by a developer that is just trying to publish a fun app. There are ways for a government to project their laws on another nation, but Nationality Principle is not one of them. An example of one country projecting laws onto other countries are the US Anti-Money Laundering laws that the US doesn't even follow but they demand every foreign government that uses USD to follow.

orra 5y ago

fosspatents? I strongly remember this alleged FOSS supporter shilling for Oracle back in the day of the Oracle v. Google case. On the topic of the article: good. Apple was clearly taking the piss by charging 27% for not processing payments, immediately after being told by a legal authority that a 30% cut on in app payments was anticompetitive.

rosndo 5y ago
> authority that a 30% cut on in app payments was anticompetitive. You’re coming up with stuff. This was never about the apple tax.
mda 5y ago
Yeah, site was a paid shill, "FOSS" name is basically a joke. I would not trust anything that they write.
ksec 5y ago
I remember people said the same thing when they were covering Apple vs Samsung.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

> Those weekly sanctions can reach--but not exceed--a total of €50 million ($56.7 million). That's "sofa-cushion money" for Apple. I have a feeling that they'll just pay it, and carry on as usual.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mortenjorck 5y ago
It reminds me of a notorious bar here in Chicago that has continued to allow indoor smoking ever since the city's 2008 ban went into effect. The popular understanding is that they just keep paying the fines as a cost of doing business.
- TillE 5y ago
  That's a pretty odd situation, since in most cases a repeated health violations like that would lead to your license(s) getting pulled.
- vmception 5y ago
  There are a variety in Los Angeles that stayed open during the entire pandemic and just kept paying the fines. Some were pretty clear about having debts and expenses, they got the fines and weren't like condemned or anything stricter. (So its always been possible to have a midwestern or Florida experience even in LA county, which has been widely reported as having strict requirements, but its not really anybody's day to day experience)
- selectodude 5y ago
  Well, Richards is a cop bar that’s pretty well connected. I’m not sure they’re paying too many fines.
kingcharles 5y ago
Is the only relief available monetary? Can the government not get an injunction? Otherwise, if I were EvilCorp Inc, then I would just keep doing my thing and paying the Dutch government their "tax".

silvercove 5y ago

conor_f 5y ago

I heard a point recently about driving in bus lanes as a private car: If it's just a repeated fine with no further consequence, it's not a fine but a cost. What happens next?

lucb1e 5y ago
This is the Nth top comment saying the same thing (and it's also repetitive across sanction threads, open any thread where $bigcorp got a monetary fine). There have been good replies already posted to other subthreads here, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420874 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420630
- conor_f 5y ago
  Sorry, my comment may have appeared relatively thoughtless but you've hit upon the crux of the point, right? If this is the Nth top comment saying the same thing, and if it is so commonly asked in similar situations, then what actually is the consequence? What actually is happening next? As far as I've seen, not a whole lot? I'll also make explicit what I thought was implicitly implied in my first comment, what do people think should happen next in these situations?
  - dolni 5y ago
    I'm "people", so I guess I'll chime in with my opinion. Laws exist because we, as a society, decided that we want to live by a certain set of rules. If the rules are not upheld, law becomes less useful. Some actors in our society follow the law because they see it is the right thing to do. A lot of actors are willing to make exceptions for this thing or that thing (e.g. speeding). Some actors don't give a damn what the law says, they're only motivated by the possibility of being caught and the subsequent punishment. And lastly, there are actors who just do what they want, punishment be damned. I would argue that corporations generally fall into the third category. They weigh the likelihood of being caught against the punishment (fine) they will receive. Regarding punishments, I think they generally ought to be the lightest possible punishment that forces compliance. Two things follow from that. One, that a punishment must be tailored to the infringer. If the infringer has a lot of money, the fines need to match. Two, that means subsequent punishments for the same infraction _necessarily_ must be harsher. The lesser punishment didn't work last time, so it must be increased. All of this to say that Apple's fine for this should be absolutely staggering. Apple could ignore staggering fines and simply not do business in countries that issue such fines. But you can only do that a few times before it starts to catch up with you.

amelius 5y ago

The best way to punish a company is to take away their trademarks and logos. Perhaps we should have a three-strikes policy. After the first strike, your company logo gets one bite taken out of it. Second strike, one more bite. Third strike, your logo is gone.

pydry 5y ago
Fining them lots of money doesnt seem like such a bad plan.
johnebgd 5y ago
That’d do great things for consumers who don’t know about trademark law and suddenly start buying fake apple products at fake apple stores only to have their identity stolen and/or their bank account drained…
- Beached 5y ago
  but on the other hand, the damage done to the brand as a result would be enormous.
  - hda2 5y ago
    yep, just warn citizens that the country will no longer be protecting Apple's IPs. Apple is now generic. Anyone buying apple products is responsible for the damages he or she sustains.
  - MichaelApproved 5y ago
    And the damage done to consumers would also be enormous. For whatever faults they might have, the regulations are intended to protect consumers, not harm them with a scorched earth plan out of a libertarian fantasy. There are plenty of ways you can punish a company for wrongdoing without risking the consumer as much as that idea would.
  - square_usual 5y ago
    Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

ivoras 5y ago

$5 million is peanuts for Apple. It would probably do the prosecutors good to take inspiration from the old chessboard legend and fine them 2x the last fine for each repeated case.

arvinsim 5y ago
Better yet, penalize them using percentages of their total revenue. Best is to just drop fines as penalties and change them to something that companies will actually pay attention to.

mullingitover 5y ago

Apple giving the 3% discount for alternate payment processors seems extremely generous in Europe, given that Europe caps payment processing fees at extremely low rates compared to the US[1]: > As a general rule, the Regulation will cap interchange fees at 0.2% of the transaction value for consumer debit cards and at 0.3% for consumer credit cards. For consumer debit cards, it also gives flexibility to Member States to define lower percentage caps and impose maximum fee amounts. So, if anything, Apple is giving a 10x discount for the alternative payment processor. Somehow the Dutch authorities seem to want payment processing to be worth .3% of transactions, unless you're Apple, in which case they want them to be worth 100x as much, and at the same time the platform/SDK licensing Apple provides to be defined as worthless. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/hr/IP_15_4585 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/hr/IP_15_...

joshuaissac 5y ago
The caps you quoted are for credit and debit cards. Stripe, for example, charges 1.4%-2.9% in Europe.
- mullingitover 5y ago
  That's a fair point - looks like that's because Stripe is including an array of services that add value beyond basic interchange fees, similar to Apple Pay's included merchant services?
thayne 5y ago
> the platform/SDK licensing Apple provides to be defined as worthless. There's still the apple developer fee. Also, the value of the platform is itself increased by the apps made for it. Without third party apps, iOS devices would be less appealing to consumers.
- mullingitover 5y ago
  > Without third party apps, iOS devices would be less appealing to consumers. I understand this argument, however let's not forget that it's a two way street. People were buying iPhones by the millions well before a single app was sold on the platform, and there are other platforms that the third party apps could publish on. They choose to publish on iOS because, for vast numbers of developers, it is a very profitable platform for them to transact on.

Razengan 5y ago

“Dating” apps have pretty sleazy and predatory practices. Their very existence depends on them being bad at their purpose! (i.e. when a person finds a partner they will stop using the app) Tinder (child of Match.com, one of the parties in the coalition against Apple) charges certain demographics (males) higher for the same services and have other underhanded tactics to nickle-and-dime users, like charging for read-receipts! Features like visibility boosts are a gamble and they may very well do nothing at all some times. The beauty of Apple’s in-app purchase system is that if a user feels gypped by an app they can request a refund, and most of the time Apple will grant it without question, so it’s no wonder that companies with predatory business models would be the loudest voice for circumventing user protections. No matter how you feel about Apple, there are worse wolves in the woods. Let’s not empower the likes of Tinder/Match. They are not the betrodden underdog in any shape or form.

muro 5y ago
Behaving in customer's interest (in this case Apple issuing refunds) doesn't give a free pass to prevent competition. If Tinder/Match break the consumer protection laws on how they process payments, they should be investigated and prosecuted accordingly.

zgs 5y ago

Until the fine is based on percentage of revenue or something that hurts the company, it will be ignored. Trivial amounts like this are irrelevant to a company as large as Apple. They are just a cost of doing business.

krono 5y ago
New fines can be stacked on infinitely - there is no technical limit. If no satisfactory solution of their own design is forthcoming they could be charged with contempt of court, or, eventually, even be bound to a specific solution implementation that will be provided for them by court. Source article (in Dutch): https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-dat-wel-indruk-op-apple-maakt/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-da...

ksec 5y ago

Apple is basically giving the middle finger to the Dutch Authorities. Perfectly inline with their attitude around the world ( apart from China ). And Apple Supporters on Macrumors and 9to5Mac are calling for Apple to pull out of the Netherland. Along with other countries which does not comply with Apple's terms. I wish there is some sort of Dutch polling group to send out public survey asking the Dutch people: Apple is the biggest and perhaps the best company in the world, however the Dutch court disagrees with how Apple are charging Dutch business 30% on Apps and Services and given no other choice of payment processor. Should the Dutch Court continue its ruling and authority, Apple may threaten to leave the Netherland which leaves iPhone user with no support and no future Apple product in Netherland. Netherland is only a small country with 17M population. Even if every single population owns an iPhone it account to less than 1.7% of total iPhone users. A rounding error for the biggest company in the world. Should the Dutch Court continue its proceeding it may ultimately have a negative effect on Dutch citizens. Along with Dutch business without access to Apple's iPhone App Store market. Should the Dutch court drop the case against Apple? Yes or No.

advanderveer 5y ago
No, we are a sovereign nation. We've build it over hundreds of years into a place of great stability. Apple is only a corporation that has been around for ~60 years.
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  >No, we are a sovereign nation. De jure or de facto?
  - advanderveer 5y ago
    In today's a world of hyper globalisation is any nation still truly independent?
DeathArrow 5y ago
>Perfectly inline with their attitude around the world ( apart from China ). That's because the Chinese would shut their market to Apple if they would misbehave.

Mo3 5y ago

So I have been living in the Netherlands for a year or so now and this makes perfect sense judging from seeing Dutch mentality and how they handle police work, law issues, fines, etc. The Dutch always try to avoid making big deals out of anything that does not need to. This starts with the police being extremely well trained, but actively not engaging in anything until it is really needed and just keeping an eye on everything - one mentionable experience was a mentally unwell homeless man in Amsterdam who posed a very obvious threat to public safety by being violent and aggressive towards pedestrians - they showed up before I even realized they were needed, but then just took that guy (who was preparing to assault a random man walking by) to the side, and then had a 20 minute conversation with him, figured out what the reason for his anger was and then left again. The guy just sat down and looked at the ground until his tram arrived… that was already quite weird to see but if it works out I thought.. The next memorable experience being the time where I actually completely forgot to file my annual tax statement and, to make matters worse, completely forgot to declare a not small sum of money. I then paid what I thought I owned (3 weeks too late, not one word about it just a nicely worded acknowledgement mail once I did..), left the country for a few months and then returned to find some reminders from them with the very polite note to have a look and check if that is really correct - mind you… in my home country the IRS equivalent would have their best men on me at that point - I did check and got some serious anxiety once I saw that I really did not declare it and it actually looked 100% like I was trying to hide the income on purpose.. Guess what they said when I called them with my eyes tearing up and me imagining how much lube I need for this to not hurt.. “First of all, please calm down Mr., your Dutch is very good by the way! Let’s see.. that will be 3% on the amount due, plus 65€ fee for also submitting the report too late. But guess what, it looks like we forgot to calculate all that stuff you submitted for using your apartment to work, so we actually owe you 3k! You'll get it soon, and for next time try to submit your report on time, you don’t want to pay 65€ every year now do you hahahaha” The stories just goes on like the time where they caught me technically importing hard drugs on the plane (amphetamines without prescription on my person) and just let me go laughing about it.. or that time where I had to defend my girlfriend from some asshole and I think I broke his nose and they just came (like 20 seconds later), had a look, the other guy just stumbled around, they asked him in Dutch if he thinks he did something wrong, him saying yes sir and them literally saying “I think your parents raised you better than that, no?“ That guy looked like he was about to start crying and that was the end of that story. He apologized to me and my girlfriend on his own accord, told me that I had an insane punch and I told him that I wouldn’t have punched that hard it he wasn’t as attractive and big of a danger to my masculinity and we had a good laugh and went our ways. This just keeps going on and on, nowadays I live in a less „active“ area in Rotterdam right by the harbor but the Dutch mentality is omnipresent in anything and it really makes life so much more enjoyable. And guess what, you can be absolutely fucking sure I make it a point to file and pay my taxes on time, not because it costs 65€ every year but because the symbolic value behind it is so much bigger.. I was awarded a level of respect and humanness and the thought of having to talk to that nice Dutch lady again and her being disappointed for me to have to pay the 65€ again is just not nice. It sounds completely crazy but if you are being treated this way (even if not always) there is no anger or the need to oppose the government any more. You are one of their people, you want to act as such by yourself too. Now that leads me to the point I was actually trying to make, sorry for the ramble, this mentality, obviously, starts to completely and utterly fail when there are businesses like Apple involved that do not have any sense of personal responsibility. The symbolic fines will prove completely useless and are laughed at, but the Dutch will refuse deviating from this strategy. They would rather try this 5 times after another, and then a sixth time, because the whole country does only exist today because at some point everybody had to give up their ego and start working together as a country in order to deal with the water - which as far as I know produced sayings like „We are all in the same boat“. Really, I would argue that companies like Apple do not have sufficient moral values to operate in that kind of responsibility, but the Dutch will uphold theirs anyway, and if it needs to be this will go on just like this for a very long time until someone is burdened with the task of thinking about real consequences, and even then it will probably not what Apple would deserve, just the bare minimum to get them to at least comply with this stupid shit. Another thing seemingly completely incomprehensible to this society, that you would make that kind of a big deal about in the end idiotically small issues as present here. On another note, I have since moved to a less active part of the country, but the surprises don’t stop, they just change. Last weekend there was Storm Eunice, 100+mph.. I think classified as Hurricane, the Dutch do not see this is any kind of special event it seems, or at most as unusual.. I was sitting in the house, truly scared, I looked outside and there were still people going for walks and riding their bicycles (although with great problems). I opened the apartment door and it fucking shot open and slammed so hard against the wall behind it that the paint layer sprung off, to which a passerby reminded me to be careful as there was a storm right now… Last story since this happened today again. A few days after I moved into this apartment, I got woken up by a very loud and heavy continuous sound. I got up, went into the kitchen and outside to the terrace, the sound now being deafeningly loud. I looked up and almost shit my pants. Maybe 300ft above my head, if not less, there was.. a fucking APACHE ATTACK HELICOPTER hovering above the house. A real life fucking Apache. In a relatively peaceful residential area. I couldn’t believe it. There were neighbors outside as well, they did not seem to notice. I said Hi and asked what’s going on? They did not seem to realize what I was on about either and I pointed at the god damn attack helicopter above their heads. They looked at it for a second, and then replied „So what? Is this not compatible with your view of the Netherlands?“ Now try to find a reply to that. The Apache is still.. simply around sometimes like today, and I still cannot comprehend the mindset required for god damn attack helicopters sitting above a residential area to be not even noteworthy any more, but that's how it is. Nothing else to mention. There is simply an Apache attack helicopter, sometimes also a pair of Ospreys or F15s flying very low above this residential area and doing whatever they do. That's just how it is. I got the Apache pilot to wave back once, I guess that was pretty cool but that is just how it is. And now if you consider that almost the whole country is actually several dozen feet under sea level and the only reason it exists as it does.. is because there is a huge network of pumps continuously pumping out the water, day in and day out, and if it was not for these pumps a big percentage of this country would be deep under water, and noone even mentions it or thinks about it because thats just how it is. If you just let this be for a second and try to not go crazy over the insane, absolutely batshit crazy level of mind required to decide this is worth it, you will start to see why the Dutch are where they are and why this issue and Apple itself are being so stupid it is not compatible with this society… Because at the level of lack of morality and sense of responsibility that Apple operates at the Dutch would not have survived. Please, Apple, just fucking do this stupid shit, you don’t deserve the treatment you get.