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> our ineffectual administration It always saddens me to see EU citizens talk in absolutes like that. With some exceptions, and by comparison, we have some of

by dxdm 5y ago

> our ineffectual administration It always saddens me to see EU citizens talk in absolutes like that. With some exceptions, and by comparison, we have some of the best governments in the world, and, for all its faults, the EU has been a huge net positive. Perpetuating these overly negative stereotypes just aids populists in replacing our good governance with the other kind that we see all over the world.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
prox 5y ago
I agree. I understand people like to talk in this way to show their emotional connection to the topic, but it’s not very helpful and like you mention, too absolute. It’s a system in progress, and we need to be invested in its ideals (fair, just, democratic)
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence in past few years. A prime example is Czech republic, a very euro-skeptical nation despite all the benefits it brought them. Hungary would be another one. That being said, as somebody coming from east too and seeing clearly all the direct and indirect benefits of EU, its far from ideal. The whole concept of central planning resembles old east communist block when soviets forced down our throats whatever they pleased (we had to refuse Marshall's plan, they took all of our uranium reserves for free for which more appropriate term is stealing, and many many other cases) and that's an association many older people have knee-jerk reaction of.
  - ThalesX 5y ago
    > Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence in past few years. I wish people would stop attributing our attitude to nationalistic resurgences. I’m a globalist and think nationalism and regionalism should be relics of the past and I keep getting put in the same box as nationalists because I am Euro-realist. With this frame of mind I think the EU politicians are shit at building the foundations for a truly globalized civilization and the current system devalues entire areas of the continent both of natural resources as well as human resources.
    - Y-bar 5y ago
      > I wish people would stop attributing our attitude to nationalistic resurgences. Why should we stop? Where I live (NW Europe) this sentiment is almost exclusively echoed by members of the refreshed "neoconservative/nationalistic" right wing parties. Other parties also have their qualms about government institutions, of course, but for different reasons and expressed with different attitudes.
      - suction 5y ago
        We should stop because it bothers them that the "clever" ways they try to undermine democracies and the EU aren't that clever at all and easily observable.
        darebak 5y ago
        EU is trying to undermine democracy, atleast in my country.
        martimarkov 5y ago
        I feel this would be headline news if correct so do you want to elaborate or is it just a throw away comment with no backing?
        darebak 5y ago
        Why would it be headline news? It doesn't benefit any big capital. Most significant incident was definitely in 2012 when Serbia had tight elections on all levels including parliamentary and presidential elections. The problematic part was that German PM at the time congratulated the new president even before the polls were officially closed. I'm not saying that Germany is the EU but various EU commissioners were not much better over the years, praising Serbian EU path days after controversial anti-democratic actions by the government. Lately this has began to change but it's a little bit late, Serbian president consolidated power not unlike Orbán or Putin. All this has contributed to lowest support for EU ascension among Serbian population in a generation.
  - openplatypus 5y ago
    > Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence in past few years. That kind of gas-lighting should not have place on HN. That's unfair and dismissive generalization. We, Europeans from west and east, center, north and south walked blind into privacy abuse. If awareness coincides with increase of nationalist movement in Europe and US, that is not a correlation.
  - tremon 5y ago
    As if England didn't broadcast its share of fact-free euro-skeptical gaslighting all over Europe. As if their voice wasn't echoed by both PVV and FVD in The Netherlands, FN in France, AFD in Germany or M5S in Italy.
  - robtherobber 5y ago
    I must echo the other comments in this thread and point out the fact that this sort of generalisation does more harm than good by helping to cement one of the negative stereotypes concerning Eastern Europe (EE) (that somehow they lack the ability or the drive to work towards a more democratic society), which is also not backed by data. According to this 2019 BBC article [0] that looks at where in Europe's political landscape the right-wing nationalists hold sway, 8 out of top 10 countries are in Western Europe (WE). The UK is not on that list (nor other EE countries like Croatia for that matter), but I think it should be. There's also a noticeable increase in right wing terrorism, which appears to take place more in WE than EE ("measured by overall volume of right-wing terrorism, Germany and Italy, the two former World War II Axis powers, lead the way"), where most targets show that the substantial majority of right-wing terrorist attacks have been aimed at immigrants and Muslims [1]. Possible explanations include the displacement of people from conflict zones like Syria and Afghanistan, but also the fact that most migrants in Europe are economic migrants, which means that they go from less economically developed countries to more developed ones, thus from EE to WE, which is why the rise of nationalism is higher in WE than EE. This, of course, is but speculation on my part, especially since countries like Hungary, Poland and Czechia have behaved rather poorly in this respect, on par with Austria, Italy and the UK. Plenty to discuss here and there's a lot of information available, but I doubt we can simply point to EE and consider the matter closed, since this seems to be a global phenomenon. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006 [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/western-europe-right-wing-terrorism-rise/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/we...
  - suction 5y ago
    True. If you compare Hungary / Poland and for example Ireland and Portugal, the difference couldn't be greater in terms of effectiveness of government.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence Speaking as an American (and a Swissman), the country that has done the most to undermine the EU has been Germany. First with austerity. Next by hyperventilating over nuclear. Then by implementing the results of said hyperventilation by vacillating over Russia. Almost pathologically, it has been Berlin putting its interests ahead of Europe that has caused Brussels’ stumbles. If these issues weren’t blocked (nor the common defence and deposit insurance schemes) nationalism in Eastern Europe wouldn’t be as pressing.
  - jagrsw 5y ago
    > Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements This is seriously an uncool statement. Such generalisations, are both unethical and unfounded.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  [flagged]
thenaturalist 5y ago
Agree completely with your voice there. In fact, I think especially when you look at digital privacy and curbing ever more intrusive tracking practices, the EU has been THE most engaged international body by far. Of course it's a game of cat and mouse, but advertisers will do what advertisers do and when the practice is exposed don't think it'll go unnoticed.
raspberry1337 5y ago
>a huge net positive A huge net positive for buisness, that's for sure. There are currently over 25,000 lobbyists in Brussels and Berlin [1]. As for the citizens, that is up to debate, and highly individual. Truckers in Sweden, for example, that currently find themselves competing with truckers from all over europe who also fill the tank in countries with far cheaper gas, cant really be said to enjoy positive gain from the EU [2]. [1] https://www.economist.com/business/2021/05/13/the-power-of-lobbyists-is-growing-in-brussels-and-berlin https://www.economist.com/business/2021/05/13/the-power-of-l... [2] https://www.transportarbetaren.se/lavinartad-okning-av-tredjelandschaufforer/ https://www.transportarbetaren.se/lavinartad-okning-av-tredj...
- mingusrude 5y ago
  I am not denying that there are problems for truckers in Sweden caused by open borders to other EU-countries and that those problems should be fixed. However, without EU there would probably be a lot less stuff to truck around.
  - raspberry1337 5y ago
- jsiepkes 5y ago
  > who also fill the tank in countries with far cheaper gas So we are talking here about inter-country transport, right? Because I don't think it's very econimical to fill up your gastank in Poland if your driving deliveries locally inside Sweden? That will probably not be a net-win. If you are a Swedish company importing from for example Poland you could always let a Polish transport company handle the transport. The EU didn't change much about that. A Swedish trucker driving to Poland could also fill up it's truck in Poland with cheap gas. So what did the EU do that made cheaper gas more of an competitive advantage then it was before? BTW gas prices are something that Swedens goverment themselve handle...
  - raspberry1337 5y ago
peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> It always saddens me to see EU citizens talk in absolutes like that. Unfortunate there are many European enemies of the EU. It doesn't even have anything to do with EU administration: EU can't prevent Google trying to trick users into leaking their privates data and habits. Not at least until Google reveals their plans on how they're gonna do it. On a final note: we accepted two non-democratic countries in EU, Poland and Hungary, and these are the results. They infected all the other countries, like COVID-19 has done with people.
- dessant 5y ago
  > we accepted two non-democratic countries in EU, Poland and Hungary, and these are the results. I can't speak for Poland, but the political landscape of Hungary was different when it joined the EU, and the country was by no means considered non-democratic or EU-skeptic. > They infected all the other countries The EU was infected by rising inequality and the degradation of purchasing power by the middle class, which is a global issue that gives an opportunity for populists to gain power, and for the population to find scapegoats, like pointing fingers at a foreign country.
  - estrai 5y ago
    Poland's political landscape has also changed since they joined the EU, perhaps in a less spectacular way than in Hungary. Both countries are democracies, current leaders were elected in democratic elections. It's the adherence to the rule of law that's an issue in both cases.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Both countries are democracies, current leaders were elected in democratic elections Elections in which the ruling party has no real chance of being deposed, and thus no incentive to compete, aren’t democratic.
- pqs 5y ago
  One can argue that the EU itself is rather undemocratic, as the Parliament does not hold much power, and there isn't a clear separation between executive and legislative, as the Commission and the Council of Ministers both participate in the process.
avgcorrection 5y ago
Really fits the EU fan stereotype to immediately complain that someone expressing their subjective opinion “aids populists”. Maybe they are wrong that the EU is ineffectual. If so, just argue against that.
- jevgeni 5y ago
  You're not exactly leading by example, arguing off a stereotype...
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    Are you charging me with hypocrisy? Ok here’s the difference: - “Ineffectual EU”: this could be a well-informed or badly informed opinion. Or it could be a lazy stereotype. The OP did not elaborate so we have no way of knowing that at this point. - “EU stereotypes → aids populists”: the reasoning or association being drawn is right there in the post—You said A (or rather my interpretation of A) and that causes B. My own point was simply that one can make a counter-argument instead of complaining about how a certain assertion aids populists. Could my point have been made without the EU fan stereotype charge? Sure. But taking the high road at all costs is not my personal policy and responding tit-for-tat is OK in my book.
    - jevgeni 5y ago
      Firstly, the "ineffectual EU" stereotype is a well-known trope of anti-EU populist politicians, so I'm not sure what more should be proven to you? Secondly, you say yourself, that OP does not in any way support their "ineffectual EU" statement, which is according to you not a problem. Not once did you see it as a problem. In fact, you go out of your way to hide away the implied associations in zwaps comment. But when dxdm points out that it's a populist opinion, then you become the debate police. Yes, that's hypocritical.
      - avgcorrection 5y ago
        A problem? It’s neither here nor there—people spout off all sorts of opinions on HN or any fora. So no—it’s not a problem. It’s just an opinion, not some vigorously well-researched argument. People can say that the EU is the best thing since sliced bread—also not a problem. I’m not a fan of the EU but I’m not going to accuse people who like the EU that they are “aiding the technocrats of Brussels” (or some similar over-the-top rhetoric). Yes. I do take issue with jumping to the “aid populists” conclusion from merely two words. Saying that some off-hand Internet comment is aiding authoritarians—because that’s surely the implication of “the other kind [of governance] that we see all over the world”—is hysterical.
dontlaugh 5y ago
I agree that it's not ineffectual. It's very effective at imposing austerity, privatisation and deregulation, especially on the periphery countries. It's also effective at encouraging foreign ownership of industry and exploitation of migrants. On occasion, the EU does something that is accidentally useful to most people. But in general, it's bad for all workers and even businesses of the periphery countries.
dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
That's true, but EU governance is byzantine to say the least. I realise that this is a political necessity, but at some point people have to understand that we're losing a majority of the benefits while increasing costs in having such a cumbersome arrangement. Maybe with Russia being so aggressive people will realise unity and cooperation should be a priority.
- toyg 5y ago
  > That's true, but EU governance is byzantine to say the least. That's largely because the fight for primacy between continental authorities and national ones is still ongoing. Unlike the US, where (beyond the occasional tactical posture) Congress, Presidency, and Supreme Court, have long been established as fundamentally supreme to their equivalent in local states, for the EU this has not yet been the case in many areas. Even the courts of one of the pillars of the union, Germany, recently refused to certify such primacy, and are currently in the process of being sanctioned.
southerntofu 5y ago
The EU had some great time not long ago but it lost its way. Now apart from GPDR what was the last good news you heard from this EU? Was it about automatic censorship filter? About Frontex turning into a military organization designed to help people die at sea? From some perspective, the EU is much better than my local corrupt/authoritarian government (France) and effectively serves to keep french abuses of power in check (though it always takes 5+ years of litigation to reach the European Court of Human Rights or the ECJ). But in even worse-off countries like Hungary the EU is essentially powerless against human rights abuses. Also in France the EU had zero negative impact because the EU is more or less controlled by France (and a handful other countries) so the neoliberal anti-social policies are usually already in place before they became mandatory on a european level, but in some EU countries the EU is the reason your kids can't study, your cousin lives on the street, and your grandma can't afford healthcare. I'm thinking about Greece among others here, where EU has put enormous pressure on an entire country to pay for banking shenanigans and created enormous suffering for the entire population just to pay of a few french/german banks who can well do without (and without whom we could do well, as well). So it's not exactly one-sided. And in fact, we could make the argument corruption and anti-democratic policies in the EU (anti-social regulations, proposals ignored by the parliament which has very little power compared to the commission) is part of what's led to the new rise of fascism across Europe. To keep Greece as an example, people massively voted for Tsipras a few years back, but under Troika pressure he took away all his campaign promises and sent the riot cops against the local population just like the previous government. So now they have a right-wing authoritarian government who's cracking down even harder on social services and launched a military assault on the only free commune of the capital (Exarchia) where life was a little less worse than elsewhere around the country. Is it supposed to be that hard to keep only the good stuff and say fuck you to bankers and other suit-and-tie people?
digitalengineer 5y ago
Here is an overview of all GDPR related fines. I often show it to clients to help them understand what could happen. https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
Chris2048 5y ago
On what basis? For all it's faults Google was great. Now it isn't. Why wouldn't we think the EU is just the same, but on a longer timespan. Maybe if we had been more critical of google in the beginning, despite it's initial comparative goodness, it would have found it harder becoming rooted.

by dxdm 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

prox 5y ago

I agree. I understand people like to talk in this way to show their emotional connection to the topic, but it’s not very helpful and like you mention, too absolute. It’s a system in progress, and we need to be invested in its ideals (fair, just, democratic)

saiya-jin 5y ago
Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence in past few years. A prime example is Czech republic, a very euro-skeptical nation despite all the benefits it brought them. Hungary would be another one. That being said, as somebody coming from east too and seeing clearly all the direct and indirect benefits of EU, its far from ideal. The whole concept of central planning resembles old east communist block when soviets forced down our throats whatever they pleased (we had to refuse Marshall's plan, they took all of our uranium reserves for free for which more appropriate term is stealing, and many many other cases) and that's an association many older people have knee-jerk reaction of.
- ThalesX 5y ago
  > Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence in past few years. I wish people would stop attributing our attitude to nationalistic resurgences. I’m a globalist and think nationalism and regionalism should be relics of the past and I keep getting put in the same box as nationalists because I am Euro-realist. With this frame of mind I think the EU politicians are shit at building the foundations for a truly globalized civilization and the current system devalues entire areas of the continent both of natural resources as well as human resources.
  - Y-bar 5y ago
    > I wish people would stop attributing our attitude to nationalistic resurgences. Why should we stop? Where I live (NW Europe) this sentiment is almost exclusively echoed by members of the refreshed "neoconservative/nationalistic" right wing parties. Other parties also have their qualms about government institutions, of course, but for different reasons and expressed with different attitudes.
    - suction 5y ago
      We should stop because it bothers them that the "clever" ways they try to undermine democracies and the EU aren't that clever at all and easily observable.
      - darebak 5y ago
        EU is trying to undermine democracy, atleast in my country.
        martimarkov 5y ago
        I feel this would be headline news if correct so do you want to elaborate or is it just a throw away comment with no backing?
        darebak 5y ago
        Why would it be headline news? It doesn't benefit any big capital. Most significant incident was definitely in 2012 when Serbia had tight elections on all levels including parliamentary and presidential elections. The problematic part was that German PM at the time congratulated the new president even before the polls were officially closed. I'm not saying that Germany is the EU but various EU commissioners were not much better over the years, praising Serbian EU path days after controversial anti-democratic actions by the government. Lately this has began to change but it's a little bit late, Serbian president consolidated power not unlike Orbán or Putin. All this has contributed to lowest support for EU ascension among Serbian population in a generation.
- openplatypus 5y ago
  > Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence in past few years. That kind of gas-lighting should not have place on HN. That's unfair and dismissive generalization. We, Europeans from west and east, center, north and south walked blind into privacy abuse. If awareness coincides with increase of nationalist movement in Europe and US, that is not a correlation.
- tremon 5y ago
  As if England didn't broadcast its share of fact-free euro-skeptical gaslighting all over Europe. As if their voice wasn't echoed by both PVV and FVD in The Netherlands, FN in France, AFD in Germany or M5S in Italy.
- robtherobber 5y ago
  I must echo the other comments in this thread and point out the fact that this sort of generalisation does more harm than good by helping to cement one of the negative stereotypes concerning Eastern Europe (EE) (that somehow they lack the ability or the drive to work towards a more democratic society), which is also not backed by data. According to this 2019 BBC article [0] that looks at where in Europe's political landscape the right-wing nationalists hold sway, 8 out of top 10 countries are in Western Europe (WE). The UK is not on that list (nor other EE countries like Croatia for that matter), but I think it should be. There's also a noticeable increase in right wing terrorism, which appears to take place more in WE than EE ("measured by overall volume of right-wing terrorism, Germany and Italy, the two former World War II Axis powers, lead the way"), where most targets show that the substantial majority of right-wing terrorist attacks have been aimed at immigrants and Muslims [1]. Possible explanations include the displacement of people from conflict zones like Syria and Afghanistan, but also the fact that most migrants in Europe are economic migrants, which means that they go from less economically developed countries to more developed ones, thus from EE to WE, which is why the rise of nationalism is higher in WE than EE. This, of course, is but speculation on my part, especially since countries like Hungary, Poland and Czechia have behaved rather poorly in this respect, on par with Austria, Italy and the UK. Plenty to discuss here and there's a lot of information available, but I doubt we can simply point to EE and consider the matter closed, since this seems to be a global phenomenon. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006 [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/western-europe-right-wing-terrorism-rise/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/countering-radical-right/we...
- suction 5y ago
  True. If you compare Hungary / Poland and for example Ireland and Portugal, the difference couldn't be greater in terms of effectiveness of government.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements have a nice resurgence Speaking as an American (and a Swissman), the country that has done the most to undermine the EU has been Germany. First with austerity. Next by hyperventilating over nuclear. Then by implementing the results of said hyperventilation by vacillating over Russia. Almost pathologically, it has been Berlin putting its interests ahead of Europe that has caused Brussels’ stumbles. If these issues weren’t blocked (nor the common defence and deposit insurance schemes) nationalism in Eastern Europe wouldn’t be as pressing.
- jagrsw 5y ago
  > Most often such comments come from eastern parts of Europe, where nationalistic movements This is seriously an uncool statement. Such generalisations, are both unethical and unfounded.
Chris2048 5y ago
[flagged]

thenaturalist 5y ago

Agree completely with your voice there. In fact, I think especially when you look at digital privacy and curbing ever more intrusive tracking practices, the EU has been THE most engaged international body by far. Of course it's a game of cat and mouse, but advertisers will do what advertisers do and when the practice is exposed don't think it'll go unnoticed.

raspberry1337 5y ago

>a huge net positive A huge net positive for buisness, that's for sure. There are currently over 25,000 lobbyists in Brussels and Berlin [1]. As for the citizens, that is up to debate, and highly individual. Truckers in Sweden, for example, that currently find themselves competing with truckers from all over europe who also fill the tank in countries with far cheaper gas, cant really be said to enjoy positive gain from the EU [2]. [1] https://www.economist.com/business/2021/05/13/the-power-of-lobbyists-is-growing-in-brussels-and-berlin https://www.economist.com/business/2021/05/13/the-power-of-l... [2] https://www.transportarbetaren.se/lavinartad-okning-av-tredjelandschaufforer/ https://www.transportarbetaren.se/lavinartad-okning-av-tredj...

mingusrude 5y ago
I am not denying that there are problems for truckers in Sweden caused by open borders to other EU-countries and that those problems should be fixed. However, without EU there would probably be a lot less stuff to truck around.
- raspberry1337 5y ago
jsiepkes 5y ago
> who also fill the tank in countries with far cheaper gas So we are talking here about inter-country transport, right? Because I don't think it's very econimical to fill up your gastank in Poland if your driving deliveries locally inside Sweden? That will probably not be a net-win. If you are a Swedish company importing from for example Poland you could always let a Polish transport company handle the transport. The EU didn't change much about that. A Swedish trucker driving to Poland could also fill up it's truck in Poland with cheap gas. So what did the EU do that made cheaper gas more of an competitive advantage then it was before? BTW gas prices are something that Swedens goverment themselve handle...
- raspberry1337 5y ago

peoplefromibiza 5y ago

> It always saddens me to see EU citizens talk in absolutes like that. Unfortunate there are many European enemies of the EU. It doesn't even have anything to do with EU administration: EU can't prevent Google trying to trick users into leaking their privates data and habits. Not at least until Google reveals their plans on how they're gonna do it. On a final note: we accepted two non-democratic countries in EU, Poland and Hungary, and these are the results. They infected all the other countries, like COVID-19 has done with people.

dessant 5y ago
> we accepted two non-democratic countries in EU, Poland and Hungary, and these are the results. I can't speak for Poland, but the political landscape of Hungary was different when it joined the EU, and the country was by no means considered non-democratic or EU-skeptic. > They infected all the other countries The EU was infected by rising inequality and the degradation of purchasing power by the middle class, which is a global issue that gives an opportunity for populists to gain power, and for the population to find scapegoats, like pointing fingers at a foreign country.
- estrai 5y ago
  Poland's political landscape has also changed since they joined the EU, perhaps in a less spectacular way than in Hungary. Both countries are democracies, current leaders were elected in democratic elections. It's the adherence to the rule of law that's an issue in both cases.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Both countries are democracies, current leaders were elected in democratic elections Elections in which the ruling party has no real chance of being deposed, and thus no incentive to compete, aren’t democratic.
pqs 5y ago
One can argue that the EU itself is rather undemocratic, as the Parliament does not hold much power, and there isn't a clear separation between executive and legislative, as the Commission and the Council of Ministers both participate in the process.

avgcorrection 5y ago

Really fits the EU fan stereotype to immediately complain that someone expressing their subjective opinion “aids populists”. Maybe they are wrong that the EU is ineffectual. If so, just argue against that.

jevgeni 5y ago
You're not exactly leading by example, arguing off a stereotype...
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Are you charging me with hypocrisy? Ok here’s the difference: - “Ineffectual EU”: this could be a well-informed or badly informed opinion. Or it could be a lazy stereotype. The OP did not elaborate so we have no way of knowing that at this point. - “EU stereotypes → aids populists”: the reasoning or association being drawn is right there in the post—You said A (or rather my interpretation of A) and that causes B. My own point was simply that one can make a counter-argument instead of complaining about how a certain assertion aids populists. Could my point have been made without the EU fan stereotype charge? Sure. But taking the high road at all costs is not my personal policy and responding tit-for-tat is OK in my book.
  - jevgeni 5y ago
    Firstly, the "ineffectual EU" stereotype is a well-known trope of anti-EU populist politicians, so I'm not sure what more should be proven to you? Secondly, you say yourself, that OP does not in any way support their "ineffectual EU" statement, which is according to you not a problem. Not once did you see it as a problem. In fact, you go out of your way to hide away the implied associations in zwaps comment. But when dxdm points out that it's a populist opinion, then you become the debate police. Yes, that's hypocritical.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      A problem? It’s neither here nor there—people spout off all sorts of opinions on HN or any fora. So no—it’s not a problem. It’s just an opinion, not some vigorously well-researched argument. People can say that the EU is the best thing since sliced bread—also not a problem. I’m not a fan of the EU but I’m not going to accuse people who like the EU that they are “aiding the technocrats of Brussels” (or some similar over-the-top rhetoric). Yes. I do take issue with jumping to the “aid populists” conclusion from merely two words. Saying that some off-hand Internet comment is aiding authoritarians—because that’s surely the implication of “the other kind [of governance] that we see all over the world”—is hysterical.

dontlaugh 5y ago

I agree that it's not ineffectual. It's very effective at imposing austerity, privatisation and deregulation, especially on the periphery countries. It's also effective at encouraging foreign ownership of industry and exploitation of migrants. On occasion, the EU does something that is accidentally useful to most people. But in general, it's bad for all workers and even businesses of the periphery countries.

dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago

That's true, but EU governance is byzantine to say the least. I realise that this is a political necessity, but at some point people have to understand that we're losing a majority of the benefits while increasing costs in having such a cumbersome arrangement. Maybe with Russia being so aggressive people will realise unity and cooperation should be a priority.

toyg 5y ago
> That's true, but EU governance is byzantine to say the least. That's largely because the fight for primacy between continental authorities and national ones is still ongoing. Unlike the US, where (beyond the occasional tactical posture) Congress, Presidency, and Supreme Court, have long been established as fundamentally supreme to their equivalent in local states, for the EU this has not yet been the case in many areas. Even the courts of one of the pillars of the union, Germany, recently refused to certify such primacy, and are currently in the process of being sanctioned.

southerntofu 5y ago

The EU had some great time not long ago but it lost its way. Now apart from GPDR what was the last good news you heard from this EU? Was it about automatic censorship filter? About Frontex turning into a military organization designed to help people die at sea? From some perspective, the EU is much better than my local corrupt/authoritarian government (France) and effectively serves to keep french abuses of power in check (though it always takes 5+ years of litigation to reach the European Court of Human Rights or the ECJ). But in even worse-off countries like Hungary the EU is essentially powerless against human rights abuses. Also in France the EU had zero negative impact because the EU is more or less controlled by France (and a handful other countries) so the neoliberal anti-social policies are usually already in place before they became mandatory on a european level, but in some EU countries the EU is the reason your kids can't study, your cousin lives on the street, and your grandma can't afford healthcare. I'm thinking about Greece among others here, where EU has put enormous pressure on an entire country to pay for banking shenanigans and created enormous suffering for the entire population just to pay of a few french/german banks who can well do without (and without whom we could do well, as well). So it's not exactly one-sided. And in fact, we could make the argument corruption and anti-democratic policies in the EU (anti-social regulations, proposals ignored by the parliament which has very little power compared to the commission) is part of what's led to the new rise of fascism across Europe. To keep Greece as an example, people massively voted for Tsipras a few years back, but under Troika pressure he took away all his campaign promises and sent the riot cops against the local population just like the previous government. So now they have a right-wing authoritarian government who's cracking down even harder on social services and launched a military assault on the only free commune of the capital (Exarchia) where life was a little less worse than elsewhere around the country. Is it supposed to be that hard to keep only the good stuff and say fuck you to bankers and other suit-and-tie people?

digitalengineer 5y ago

Here is an overview of all GDPR related fines. I often show it to clients to help them understand what could happen. https://www.enforcementtracker.com/ https://www.enforcementtracker.com/

Chris2048 5y ago

On what basis? For all it's faults Google was great. Now it isn't. Why wouldn't we think the EU is just the same, but on a longer timespan. Maybe if we had been more critical of google in the beginning, despite it's initial comparative goodness, it would have found it harder becoming rooted.