4 ms·

This is already the case to a certain extent. In my state, experienced teachers are constantly applying for jobs in preferred districts. There is a notable migr

This is already the case to a certain extent. In my state, experienced teachers are constantly applying for jobs in preferred districts. There is a notable migration pattern from poor districts to affluent ones. Also, poor districts are penalized with a lower property tax base.

e4e78a06 5y ago
Yep, it's a win win for those teachers and school districts. Teachers get an enjoyable teaching experience with students that actually care about success AND they get (much, much) higher pay. Students get great teachers. Unfortunately you can't really fix students not caring about their education. America doesn't have the type of shaming culture Asian countries have where class rankings are publicly posted and low scorers are socially stigmatized.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I think a student in America is more likely to be stigmatized for doing well academically rather than for doing poorly.
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    That really depends on where you went to school. The "in" crowd at my school were some of the smartest kids. My best friend from college was scolded by his peers for "acting white" when he tried hard growing up. Pop culture stereotypes kids who try hard as "nerds", but I don't really think it is a terribly accurate reflection of reality; post-secondary education attainment is as high as ever, so unless you are determined to do unskilled labor or run in a gang, you are more likely to try than not.
- nineplay 5y ago
  > Unfortunately you can't really fix students not caring about their education You absolutly can, it should be the easiest thing in the world. From birth give them caregivers with the time and ability to start learning early. Give them someone who will read to them daily, who will show them numbers and letters and counting. Send them to a good pre-school with motivated teachers who are able to teach them math and language and cause and effect without them realizing they are being taught. Send them to schools where they can do their assignments during the day, either in class or in an afterschool program. Give them tutors to help them in subjects they struggle with. In other works, give them what every middle and upper class kid gets. It would do wonders.
  - pfkurtz 5y ago
    It all comes down to being willing, as a society, to devote adequate resources to everyone, and in particular to every child, regardless of circumstance.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      It also come down to providing better options to folks who don’t want to be or shouldn’t be parents. Lots of kids being born into homes that will fail them, even if you shoveled fiat into the household. (from experience as a volunteer guardian ad litem)
      - hiptobecubic 5y ago
        Yes, unfortunately it's quite easy to have them and not so easy to raise them. In the words of a famous poet: Tout le monde sait comment on fait des bébés, mais personne sait comment on fait des papas.
        pfkurtz 5y ago
        Make it easy to get contraception. Make it easy for young men to get and then reverse vasectomies. Invest much more in the education system and children in general. Make it easy to get an abortion.
      - pfkurtz 5y ago
        That is one thing, and it is important, but what I said encompasses a lot more people and needs, so I think it doesn't quite "come down to" merely helping this one specific set of "problematic" adults you personally have some experience with. Maybe some problems are directly caused by what you said. "Shoveling fiat into the household." We had the biggest drop in child poverty during the pandemic (too bad it's temporary), because we gave people money. If you want to limit the supply of dollars raise taxes on the top, that's where all the "fiat" (lol) ends up after just a couple steps. What I said is much more general: our society must devote sufficient resources that all children have the opportunity to flourish.
seibelj 5y ago
Imagine if the funding went with the student rather than the district - all manner of schools would pop up, market themselves to parents, and pay equivalent salaries. It would decouple school quality from region.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  there's a couple problems with this, though; * our national zoning issues with housing also extend to schools. it is really hard to find appropriate sites for new schools and even harder to set one up with the approval of the neighbors. Schools do generate traffic and such, although usually at different times than work commutes, but this doesn't really matter to your retired NIMBY arguing about neighborhood character. * given school siting issues, transportation costs are a huge stumbling block for lower income children to be going to different schools. School busing is not cheap and sometimes not paid from general funding, but required to be paid by parents. If school busing is not available, not all parents have the time to drive their kids to school before work, not all schools are safe or reasonably close enough to walk or bike to, and cabs are out of the question due to expense. * it incentivizes good schools from taking in children that would tank their KPIs. one controversy with new charter schools when I was growing up is that they would generally take less Special Ed or ELL (English Language Learner) students than the population at large to try and goose their statistics.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    "There is nothing worse than black children ruining the character of the neighborhood." - american strawman I hope nobody thinks like this in reality.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      Here's an article discussing opposition to a shelter for homeless children and women: https://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/community-voices-nimbyism-is-never-the-answer/article_95a77620-2065-11eb-b1bb-9376183140a8.html https://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/community-voices-nimbyis... And opposition to a 2018 plan by the San Jose school district to build affordable housing for their own employees: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/a-fierce-fight-over-housing-for-teachers-erupts-in-san-jose https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/a-fierce-.... Never mind that the housing is "low-income" because they chose the teachers' salaries.

e4e78a06 5y ago

Yep, it's a win win for those teachers and school districts. Teachers get an enjoyable teaching experience with students that actually care about success AND they get (much, much) higher pay. Students get great teachers. Unfortunately you can't really fix students not caring about their education. America doesn't have the type of shaming culture Asian countries have where class rankings are publicly posted and low scorers are socially stigmatized.

sokoloff 5y ago
I think a student in America is more likely to be stigmatized for doing well academically rather than for doing poorly.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  That really depends on where you went to school. The "in" crowd at my school were some of the smartest kids. My best friend from college was scolded by his peers for "acting white" when he tried hard growing up. Pop culture stereotypes kids who try hard as "nerds", but I don't really think it is a terribly accurate reflection of reality; post-secondary education attainment is as high as ever, so unless you are determined to do unskilled labor or run in a gang, you are more likely to try than not.
nineplay 5y ago
> Unfortunately you can't really fix students not caring about their education You absolutly can, it should be the easiest thing in the world. From birth give them caregivers with the time and ability to start learning early. Give them someone who will read to them daily, who will show them numbers and letters and counting. Send them to a good pre-school with motivated teachers who are able to teach them math and language and cause and effect without them realizing they are being taught. Send them to schools where they can do their assignments during the day, either in class or in an afterschool program. Give them tutors to help them in subjects they struggle with. In other works, give them what every middle and upper class kid gets. It would do wonders.
- pfkurtz 5y ago
  It all comes down to being willing, as a society, to devote adequate resources to everyone, and in particular to every child, regardless of circumstance.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    It also come down to providing better options to folks who don’t want to be or shouldn’t be parents. Lots of kids being born into homes that will fail them, even if you shoveled fiat into the household. (from experience as a volunteer guardian ad litem)
    - hiptobecubic 5y ago
      Yes, unfortunately it's quite easy to have them and not so easy to raise them. In the words of a famous poet: Tout le monde sait comment on fait des bébés, mais personne sait comment on fait des papas.
      - pfkurtz 5y ago
        Make it easy to get contraception. Make it easy for young men to get and then reverse vasectomies. Invest much more in the education system and children in general. Make it easy to get an abortion.
    - pfkurtz 5y ago
      That is one thing, and it is important, but what I said encompasses a lot more people and needs, so I think it doesn't quite "come down to" merely helping this one specific set of "problematic" adults you personally have some experience with. Maybe some problems are directly caused by what you said. "Shoveling fiat into the household." We had the biggest drop in child poverty during the pandemic (too bad it's temporary), because we gave people money. If you want to limit the supply of dollars raise taxes on the top, that's where all the "fiat" (lol) ends up after just a couple steps. What I said is much more general: our society must devote sufficient resources that all children have the opportunity to flourish.

seibelj 5y ago

Imagine if the funding went with the student rather than the district - all manner of schools would pop up, market themselves to parents, and pay equivalent salaries. It would decouple school quality from region.

bobthepanda 5y ago
there's a couple problems with this, though; * our national zoning issues with housing also extend to schools. it is really hard to find appropriate sites for new schools and even harder to set one up with the approval of the neighbors. Schools do generate traffic and such, although usually at different times than work commutes, but this doesn't really matter to your retired NIMBY arguing about neighborhood character. * given school siting issues, transportation costs are a huge stumbling block for lower income children to be going to different schools. School busing is not cheap and sometimes not paid from general funding, but required to be paid by parents. If school busing is not available, not all parents have the time to drive their kids to school before work, not all schools are safe or reasonably close enough to walk or bike to, and cabs are out of the question due to expense. * it incentivizes good schools from taking in children that would tank their KPIs. one controversy with new charter schools when I was growing up is that they would generally take less Special Ed or ELL (English Language Learner) students than the population at large to try and goose their statistics.
- imtringued 5y ago
  "There is nothing worse than black children ruining the character of the neighborhood." - american strawman I hope nobody thinks like this in reality.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    Here's an article discussing opposition to a shelter for homeless children and women: https://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/community-voices-nimbyism-is-never-the-answer/article_95a77620-2065-11eb-b1bb-9376183140a8.html https://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/community-voices-nimbyis... And opposition to a 2018 plan by the San Jose school district to build affordable housing for their own employees: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/a-fierce-fight-over-housing-for-teachers-erupts-in-san-jose https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/a-fierce-.... Never mind that the housing is "low-income" because they chose the teachers' salaries.