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So many people offering explanations, and yet not a single one of them answers the OP's question. If you're upset that Intuit is engaging in lobbying (as you sh

So many people offering explanations, and yet not a single one of them answers the OP's question. If you're upset that Intuit is engaging in lobbying (as you should be!), that might be an appropriate answer for a different question (eg: why doesn't the IRS just send us their own reports for us to approve?). Again, I am not defending Intuit's involvement in politics, but that's not the answer to the dark patterns question - let me try to answer that specific question: For years, I kept experimenting with different approaches to filing my taxes. I started out with TurboTax, and being so painfully aware of their bad reputation, I kept trying out every alternative I could think of - including their biggest competitor TaxAct and three different tax firms. After all that work, I am back to using TurboTax. Obviously, it was not an easy decision given how hard I tried to avoid that path, and no, I didn't return to TurboTax because I got tricked by one of their dark patterns. The simple answer for why the tax firms didn't work out is that the work they required in their onboarding equaled or exceeded the amount of work it would have taken me to do the whole thing in TurboTax myself. Mind you, this is just the onboarding piece - not including the emails and calls leading up to the onboarding and following the onboarding. The least sophisticated firm just said: send us everything in a zip file. That sounded appealing until they started following up with a million questions. The medium-sophisticated firm (which was the most painful of all of them) asked me to use their web app which was essentially TurboTax except that the questions were incredibly confusing so that I had to look up a ton of stuff just to make sure I was submitting the right thing. The third firm used a better web app, but it was still the same thing - the onboarding was essentially the same as just using TurboTax. The obvious added value with tax firms is that they might catch something that you would have done wrong without their assistance, but these days TurboTax does offer the same service as well (and no, I never received some valuable piece of advice that justified the additional time and effort of working with a tax firm). TaxAct is not bad, and would be my close second preference. In fact, they actually cover more niche cases (eg: filing certain types of corporate taxes). Even so, their UI/UX is only almost as good as TurboTax but not quite. As unpopular as TurboTax might be in this community, I think we can take a moment and appreciate their PM+UI/UX team, who used some pretty delightful copy and super slick design to turn an awful task into a rather pleasant experience. And that's the ultimate answer to the OP's question as I see it... most people who are aware of the dark patterns in TurboTax know that it is not the cheapest way to file, but it's certainly not the most expensive either - and if you're looking for the easiest-to-use and fastest method to get the tax report checked off your list, then it's hard to find a better solution (granted, partially because they are helping create the world we live in).

giantg2 5y ago
"why doesn't the IRS just send us their own reports for us to approve?" I assume because nobody would file taxes for things that the IRS was absent from their report, because now you know the IRS doesn't know about it and won't be missing it. I think TurboTax has too many partnerships and offers. It gets people because it's free or only $10 or whatever. It would be pretty easy to switch to other software, like HR Block.
- twblalock 5y ago
  > I assume because nobody would file taxes for things that the IRS was absent from their report, because now you know the IRS doesn't know about it and won't be missing it. That's not why. The IRS is underfunded and overworked, so even if it had the information it needed to generate a report for everyone, it still couldn't do it. But it doesn't have that information anyway! A lot of taxable income is derived from sources that are not reported to the IRS before taxes are filed. This includes things like cost basis for RSUs, state and local taxes (including property tax), and various kinds of investment income. Until 2008, brokers were not even required to report cost basis information to the IRS, which enabled people to easily lie about the amount of their taxable gains! On top of that, there are a lot of deductions that are based on information the IRS does not have, such as business expenses, moving expenses, etc. The IRS still largely relies on self-reporting by taxpayers. Anyone with a moderately complex tax situation (e.g. a homeowner, or someone with investment income) knows more about their tax situation than the IRS does!
  - kelnos 5y ago
    > This includes things like cost basis for RSUs, state and local taxes (including property tax), and various kinds of investment income. Assuming the political will to make tax prep easy (which I know does not exist), the fix for this would be pretty simple for Congress to legislate. Sure, it would likely take a few years for all municipalities to come into compliance, but it's not like this would be difficult. > On top of that, there are a lot of deductions that are based on information the IRS does not have, such as business expenses, moving expenses, etc. [..] The IRS still largely relies on self-reporting by taxpayers. Sure, but there's no reason why the IRS couldn't have a website where everything it does know is pre-filled, and then could ask you about things they don't know about (and even hint at the kind of things that they wouldn't know). > Anyone with a moderately complex tax situation (e.g. a homeowner, or someone with investment income) knows more about their tax situation than the IRS does! Not really? My tax situation is probably "moderately complex": for 2021 I have W-2 income, contractor (1099-NEC) income, interest income, dividend income, capital gains through sales of stock, mutual funds, and bonds, RSU vesting, ESPP purchases and sales, required distributions from an inherited IRA, mortgage interest payments, charitable donations, and state, property, and estimated tax payments. I even have AMT credits I've been carrying forward and using for several years now. There is no reason, in principle, why the IRS could not be unambiguously and correctly notified of all of these things and prepare a return for me. I hear a lot of "the IRS doesn't know X because Y isn't required to report X"... well... fix that! And I totally agree that the IRS won't know everything sometimes, especially sometimes things that would help lower someone's tax bill (like, say, deductions for business expenses). But there's nothing wrong with that; taxpayers can simply report those extra things during tax season, after doing a quick check to verify that everything the IRS does know is correct. Most other developed nations in the world have no problem with all this; the only thing that's "unique" about the US is our dysfunction.

giantg2 5y ago

"why doesn't the IRS just send us their own reports for us to approve?" I assume because nobody would file taxes for things that the IRS was absent from their report, because now you know the IRS doesn't know about it and won't be missing it. I think TurboTax has too many partnerships and offers. It gets people because it's free or only $10 or whatever. It would be pretty easy to switch to other software, like HR Block.

twblalock 5y ago
> I assume because nobody would file taxes for things that the IRS was absent from their report, because now you know the IRS doesn't know about it and won't be missing it. That's not why. The IRS is underfunded and overworked, so even if it had the information it needed to generate a report for everyone, it still couldn't do it. But it doesn't have that information anyway! A lot of taxable income is derived from sources that are not reported to the IRS before taxes are filed. This includes things like cost basis for RSUs, state and local taxes (including property tax), and various kinds of investment income. Until 2008, brokers were not even required to report cost basis information to the IRS, which enabled people to easily lie about the amount of their taxable gains! On top of that, there are a lot of deductions that are based on information the IRS does not have, such as business expenses, moving expenses, etc. The IRS still largely relies on self-reporting by taxpayers. Anyone with a moderately complex tax situation (e.g. a homeowner, or someone with investment income) knows more about their tax situation than the IRS does!
- kelnos 5y ago
  > This includes things like cost basis for RSUs, state and local taxes (including property tax), and various kinds of investment income. Assuming the political will to make tax prep easy (which I know does not exist), the fix for this would be pretty simple for Congress to legislate. Sure, it would likely take a few years for all municipalities to come into compliance, but it's not like this would be difficult. > On top of that, there are a lot of deductions that are based on information the IRS does not have, such as business expenses, moving expenses, etc. [..] The IRS still largely relies on self-reporting by taxpayers. Sure, but there's no reason why the IRS couldn't have a website where everything it does know is pre-filled, and then could ask you about things they don't know about (and even hint at the kind of things that they wouldn't know). > Anyone with a moderately complex tax situation (e.g. a homeowner, or someone with investment income) knows more about their tax situation than the IRS does! Not really? My tax situation is probably "moderately complex": for 2021 I have W-2 income, contractor (1099-NEC) income, interest income, dividend income, capital gains through sales of stock, mutual funds, and bonds, RSU vesting, ESPP purchases and sales, required distributions from an inherited IRA, mortgage interest payments, charitable donations, and state, property, and estimated tax payments. I even have AMT credits I've been carrying forward and using for several years now. There is no reason, in principle, why the IRS could not be unambiguously and correctly notified of all of these things and prepare a return for me. I hear a lot of "the IRS doesn't know X because Y isn't required to report X"... well... fix that! And I totally agree that the IRS won't know everything sometimes, especially sometimes things that would help lower someone's tax bill (like, say, deductions for business expenses). But there's nothing wrong with that; taxpayers can simply report those extra things during tax season, after doing a quick check to verify that everything the IRS does know is correct. Most other developed nations in the world have no problem with all this; the only thing that's "unique" about the US is our dysfunction.