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I figured out what was charming about that, and it was the camera shake. Digital animation sequencing lost the entropy from the shaking of the cel frames. It

I figured out what was charming about that, and it was the camera shake. Digital animation sequencing lost the entropy from the shaking of the cel frames. It can be added back in via simulation, during production. I think I would love that.

rasz 5y ago
Like you would enjoy added needle noise in your music? or pixelation in your games?
- fsloth 5y ago
  Noise can be perceived as an additive component in a work of art - if done right. Just like any other component of a composition, it depends on how it's used. For example the surface detailing on the Star Wars ships can be viewed as a type of noise as they are not really representing anything of actual engineering, but rather are aesthetic addendums selected from a preset set of visual components. The mathematical space for animation frames is of course different from that of a surface of a static 3d shape, or music, but the philosophical concepts are analogous, I think. Perceptually - how human brain interprets them - there are of course larger differences. But all in all, visual arts, music, regardless of the mathematical domain (space, time, volume) artistically used noise is not just a pathology.
- npteljes 5y ago
  You say that but many games and music pieces do specifically that. And movies emulate VHS effects, manipulated images re-add noise and texture, and so on.
- royjacobs 5y ago
  Most modern music production is predicated on replicating analogue distortion and assorted non-linearities by digital means.
- boondaburrah 5y ago
  Film grain is (used to be? It's been a while since I've seen one) added to hollywood movies despite the entire pipeline being digital, and noise can be instrumental in masking hard edges and artifacts while tying together an audio mix. Painters will drag a brush with only medium and no pigment across a canvas just to "glue" the elements together. So yes, People do enjoy this.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    "People enjoy some things like this" != "People enjoy all things like this" I'm no luddite when it comes to modern animation; there is an absolute deluge of modern animation that I love. Most if not all of it would have been impossible with traditional animation techniques. But as for the charm of traditional animation, the "charm" of those visual imperfections wasn't the aesthetic value of the imperfections themselves; it was the slight breaking of the "fourth wall" and how it reminded me that human beings physically arranged and photographed every single frame of animation. Digitally faking those imperfections would be silly to me. As for something like artificial film grain noise in Hollywood, I suppose that perhaps some people love the fact that it reminds them of the physical filmmaking process. For most others I suspect it's a purely visual aesthetic charm, that is indeed ripe for digital replication. Art is subjective (always a dangerous thing on HN) and I won't say anybody is wrong if they feel otherwise about this. However, it would be objectively true to point out that the appeal of "analog imperfections" goes far beyond their face-value aesthetic appeal for many.
    - boondaburrah 5y ago
      Yup. People != Everyone. I will argue a bit for the value of noise (visual or auditory) of causing you to stop processing each individual element and accept them as one whole though. I don't think that argument applies to pin registration shake on film animation, but if every element of a mix were perfectly dry it would sound unrealistic (even live, arguably the highest fidelity of music for this argument, has room characteristics). Regarding hollywood it was originally a way to make the CG elements and live-action elements actually blend. Once they went all-digital it didn't make as much sense.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  There is definitely a ton of games that add it back for stylistic effect.
- vmception 5y ago
  Yes, to needle noise I didn’t grow up with those things so it is neither nostalgia or being “retro”, I like things that makes the consumer’s eyes and ears search
- krinchan 5y ago
  > added needle noise in your music The entire “Lo-Fi Beats” niche-genre and it’s popularity would indicate that people do in fact enjoy that.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
JohnBooty 5y ago
Art is subjective, so if that's what makes it magic for you... cool. Not remotely what made it charming for me. Doesn't mean I'm right, though!

rasz 5y ago

Like you would enjoy added needle noise in your music? or pixelation in your games?

fsloth 5y ago
Noise can be perceived as an additive component in a work of art - if done right. Just like any other component of a composition, it depends on how it's used. For example the surface detailing on the Star Wars ships can be viewed as a type of noise as they are not really representing anything of actual engineering, but rather are aesthetic addendums selected from a preset set of visual components. The mathematical space for animation frames is of course different from that of a surface of a static 3d shape, or music, but the philosophical concepts are analogous, I think. Perceptually - how human brain interprets them - there are of course larger differences. But all in all, visual arts, music, regardless of the mathematical domain (space, time, volume) artistically used noise is not just a pathology.
npteljes 5y ago
You say that but many games and music pieces do specifically that. And movies emulate VHS effects, manipulated images re-add noise and texture, and so on.
royjacobs 5y ago
Most modern music production is predicated on replicating analogue distortion and assorted non-linearities by digital means.
boondaburrah 5y ago
Film grain is (used to be? It's been a while since I've seen one) added to hollywood movies despite the entire pipeline being digital, and noise can be instrumental in masking hard edges and artifacts while tying together an audio mix. Painters will drag a brush with only medium and no pigment across a canvas just to "glue" the elements together. So yes, People do enjoy this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  "People enjoy some things like this" != "People enjoy all things like this" I'm no luddite when it comes to modern animation; there is an absolute deluge of modern animation that I love. Most if not all of it would have been impossible with traditional animation techniques. But as for the charm of traditional animation, the "charm" of those visual imperfections wasn't the aesthetic value of the imperfections themselves; it was the slight breaking of the "fourth wall" and how it reminded me that human beings physically arranged and photographed every single frame of animation. Digitally faking those imperfections would be silly to me. As for something like artificial film grain noise in Hollywood, I suppose that perhaps some people love the fact that it reminds them of the physical filmmaking process. For most others I suspect it's a purely visual aesthetic charm, that is indeed ripe for digital replication. Art is subjective (always a dangerous thing on HN) and I won't say anybody is wrong if they feel otherwise about this. However, it would be objectively true to point out that the appeal of "analog imperfections" goes far beyond their face-value aesthetic appeal for many.
  - boondaburrah 5y ago
    Yup. People != Everyone. I will argue a bit for the value of noise (visual or auditory) of causing you to stop processing each individual element and accept them as one whole though. I don't think that argument applies to pin registration shake on film animation, but if every element of a mix were perfectly dry it would sound unrealistic (even live, arguably the highest fidelity of music for this argument, has room characteristics). Regarding hollywood it was originally a way to make the CG elements and live-action elements actually blend. Once they went all-digital it didn't make as much sense.
Aeolun 5y ago
There is definitely a ton of games that add it back for stylistic effect.
vmception 5y ago
Yes, to needle noise I didn’t grow up with those things so it is neither nostalgia or being “retro”, I like things that makes the consumer’s eyes and ears search
krinchan 5y ago
> added needle noise in your music The entire “Lo-Fi Beats” niche-genre and it’s popularity would indicate that people do in fact enjoy that.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

JohnBooty 5y ago

Art is subjective, so if that's what makes it magic for you... cool. Not remotely what made it charming for me. Doesn't mean I'm right, though!