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The underlying case looks to be a pretty straight developing country "referral fees" / kickback type case. One issue is how long these cases take to resolve. T

The underlying case looks to be a pretty straight developing country "referral fees" / kickback type case. One issue is how long these cases take to resolve. This was a whistleblower blowing the whistle. Basic deal was Watson (who ran Northstar) a property developer signed a deal to kick back referral fees to an entity that did literally no work (Villanova Trust) created by a brother of the two amazon employees (Nelson and Kirschner) who were the transaction managers for 9 data center lease deals. The kickback deal was signed after these two Amazon employees met with Watson (the Vendor). Amazon then did $400M in deals with Watson, who then kicked back $5M to the trust in "commissions". Then amazon discovered deleted files indicating the employees were entitled to "shares" in these projects from Watson of something like an additional $16M. Others in the mix at developer also did some kind of land flip thing. One example was property that they bought for $20M, then sold to Amazon for $116M. In one case there was something like a $20M increase in price on property that was sold to Amazon the day that it was bought?! So they were frontrunning things. Watson was pissed, and wanted a cut, so recorded a meeting with the folks doing the flip scam. But that backfired because the folks doing the flip scam knew about the leasing scam and said, hey, if you don't back off we'll blow lid on your lease scam - claiming "that's FBI". They did end up compromising on kicking back $5M to Watson from the flip scam. Anyways, all allegations, and thousands of pages so I've no doubt got some parts wrong, but it makes for interesting reading! My question - it seems to take a long time to get these white color criminal types into jail. In the linked post, there is a lot of complaining that the FBI messed up the guys career, but man, this court case - why would you hire a guy like this into a position of trust? Note these allegations are contested. “My only hope in defending myself against its false allegations is that the process will be fair and impartial.” Mr. Nelson said per a WSJ article.

mooreds 5y ago
Do you have a public link for the case?
- tempnow987 5y ago
  Maybe try this: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17338366/amazoncom-inc-v-wdc-holdings-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17338366/amazoncom-inc-... and this: https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/201743.U.pdf https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/201743.U.pdf With 500 filings you really see how justice is different for white collar folks!
jcranberry 5y ago
Very unfortunate that the wife's career got screwed then by her husbands alleged fraud.
- tempnow987 5y ago
  It's a bit confusing because she seems to be claiming that his career has been "unfairly" hurt by this case. Not sure what to say to that really - would you hire folks scamming like this?
  - hardolaf 5y ago
    Nelson wasn't even working at AWS when the Northstar deal got approved and no evidence was actually submitted in any court against him. This article is about someone who probably has clean hands in all of this but got dragnetted by the FBI and Amazon for being part of the approval process before he left the company.
    - tempnow987 5y ago
      I thought he was at the dinner where they came up with the kickback deal, and then had withdrawal privilege's on the trust where the funds went according to the complaint. Didn't he and the other TM set up two new corps (I think Nelsons was call AllCore or similar) while they were at Amazon to help get the funds funneled back?
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    But she wasn't charged with anything? I don't understand why the feds have to destroy her business and take all the family funds. Usually it's a tactic to make the children suffer, so the parents suffer more. The feds don't really care at all about who they destroy or who is a thrown under the bus including children. Not their problem.
    - ltbarcly3 5y ago
      I think this is shifting blame, the father could have avoided any harm to his children by not engaging in dozens of multi million dollar felony frauds. Or by simply keeping his assets which are tainted with stolen money totally fire-walled from his wife's. As soon as they intermingled accounts there is no sense of 'which dollar was honest and used to invest in his wife's business', everything is tainted.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
The Geekwire articles on the investigation are interesting: https://www.geekwire.com/2021/former-aws-real-estate-managers-accused-taking-millions-kickbacks-challenge-amazons-motives-amid-fbi-investigation/ https://www.geekwire.com/2021/former-aws-real-estate-manager... They have a transcript of a recorded conversation between two parties to the alleged fraud (not including the person in the linked Medium article) who are communicating their concern that this what they're doing is "federal, FBI-type stuff", so they seem to be well aware that they were doing something wrong. It's baffling that they not only would have recorded this conversation, but then kept it around for the FBI to find and enter into record. Unless, of course, the person who recorded it did so intentionally and offered it to the FBI in exchange for something. Crime is strange.
- tempnow987 5y ago
  The guy recording was mad because two folks were doing a land flip scam and front-running him and hadn't cut him in. But they turned out to know about the lease scam that he had going with these two amazon employees. So basically he was trying to catch them out on their flip scam and was trying to record for that. Full disclosure, Nelson and his wife are apparently claiming al the allegations are false? So it's all allegations despite the insane paper trail.
  - greyhair 5y ago
    There is no honor among thieves.
buscoquadnary 5y ago
He may be guilty as hell but the fact of the matter is that doesn't mean the FBI can just take his stuff, it doesn't matter how guilty you look until you are convicted you are innocent, and the fact that it has been 20 months and there still haven't been any charges brought is ridiculous. Their money was taken before they were convicted and now they are not receiving a speedy and fair trial. It is unconstitutional and wrong, it also sets a precedent, how long before the FBI finds out someone politically unpopular is being "investigated" another nice thing is that once they take your money good luck affording lawyers fees. Ultimately I was watching a trial steam once and there was a defence lawyer stated that the purpose of a defense lawyer isn't to make sure their client gets off it is too make sure their clients rights are protected and the state plays by the rules. I don't care how guilty someone is they are innocent until proven otherwise.
- babyshake 5y ago
  Civil rights and civil liberties must be fought for, repeatedly. Those in power will only do what is constitutionally required of them when they are forced to do so.
- tempnow987 5y ago
  I'm not in favor of civil asset forfeiture. That said, hard to believe they have no idea WHY it was seized. And in white collar crimes, the case lengths are unnecessarily long and the money is often hard to recover. They should work on both those issues longer term. After Amazon wins it's lawsuits these folks will be filing various bankruptcy claims and the money will have been distributed all over the place (some to lawyers, some not) over the 5-10 years it takes to fight these out.
  - giancarlostoro 5y ago
    > I'm not in favor of civil asset forfeiture. Might be a bit much to say... but I know some historic figures who would of raised arms over such a thing even existing. I have not heard a case where it even makes legal sense to do so.
sbuttgereit 5y ago
The unfortunate part, assuming the allegations are shown to be true in any meaningful capacity, is that those that support civil forfeiture might say, "see, this is a case of the forfeiture system working as its suppose to work... depriving criminals of their ill-gotten gains." Of course, the real argument they're trying to avoid having to make with the forfeiture "hack" is: due process of law is not required for just legal outcomes and may be an impediment to a just legal outcome. Of course that line of thought, and the successful practice of civil forfeiture to such an aim, requires a purity of virtue, morality, and rationality of law enforcement officers and prosecutors that no thoughtful observer would think it achievable. That's the whole reason due process of law and the rights of accused exist: you simply cannot trust any one person or group to find a just outcome on their own... and even then our due process is often not enough to accomplish real justice.
- briffle 5y ago
  That is kind of the basic ugly fact of the US system. If you want rights, you need to support others that you don't like having those same rights. There have been several times where they ACLU has stepped in on behalf of the KKK to garuntee their rights to protest/rally. Its ugly, but taking the rights away from one group because you disagree with them is a very slippery slope.
- kodah 5y ago
  > The unfortunate part, assuming the allegations are shown to be true in any meaningful capacity, is that those that support civil forfeiture might say, "see, this is a case of the forfeiture system working as its suppose to work... depriving criminals of their ill-gotten gains." Bernie Madoff is their shining example of this, and routinely paraded by the authorities.
strathmeyer 5y ago
When you get pulled over by a cop and the cop pulls the cash out of your wallet and says "you know I can keep this, right?", that's what we're talking about, not whatever you are droning on about.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Even if all this were true, there should have to be a trial first to prove this in a court of law before assets are seized.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
tomohawk 5y ago
This is a synopsis of allegations. Made by an extremely large and powerful corporation with (apparently) connections in the FBI. Unless proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there's no point at all to be made. Stating this all as fact until proven is irresponsible.
- tempnow987 5y ago
  > Stating this all as fact until proven is irresponsible. "Anyways, all allegations, and thousands of pages so I've no doubt got some parts wrong, but it makes for interesting reading!" - from my note. This is reddit type response, where you assert something in my post that is simply not there. Kind of shameful really.
  - tomohawk 5y ago
    > Basic deal was Watson (who ran Northstar) a property developer signed a deal to kick back referral fees to an entity that did literally no work (Villanova Trust) created by a brother of the two amazon employees (Nelson and Kirschner) who were the transaction managers for 9 data center lease deals. The kickback deal was signed after these two Amazon employees met with Watson (the Vendor). The statement above is but one of many in your post that are very definitive as to what occurred. No "alleged to" or any other equivocation on the verbs. This is all stated like these are indisputable findings of fact. There's nothing shameful in pointing this out. Having a statement buried elsewhere in a largish post doesn't fix the carelessness.
bllc 5y ago
I can't even with all the whinging about forfeiture. I read back through the Geekwire coverage and filings after reading the original article. The victim narrative by the defendants in this case has been pretty selective with the facts. Here are the facts from the filings: the Nelsons got caught laundering more than $2M of the $11M in kickbacks they took. This $2M works its way through accounts and entities controlled by Nelson and Kirschner's lawyers, Kirschner's brother, and Amy Sterner Nelson's father. It then moves into and out of 8 bank accounts owned by the Nelsons, as well as two other smaller accounts owned by the Kirschers and Johnny Lim (who looks like just a conduit to launder $1MM to the Nelsons and Kirschners). The US government seizes $658K from 9 accounts, each of which received funds laundered through the Nelson scheme. Only one of the accounts had a seized balance that was greater than the amount of kickback money laundered into it (Nelson Citi #7373, $25K seized versus $12K of kickbacks transferred). Overall, $2.3M of kickback money was transfered into the accounts the government seized. Given the government seized $658K, the Nelsons were able to spend or move elsewhere nearly $1.7M of the kickback money. From other posts, Amy Sterner Nelson's story was that there was no money. There was money, and the government has the receipts. There was at least $2M of kickback money transfered into their accounts, and $1.7M of that wasn't seized. Almost all of that $2M moves through a company controlled by James Sterner, Amy Sterner Nelson's father. I think I'm most baffled why you would move money around like this and not expect to get caught. I wonder what this all looks like through the IRS lens. It's never hard to follow the money, but it does take a little time: https://whimsical.com/followed-the-money-XKYwPPD6AhhGiPeePDi4iw@2Ux7TurymMp2ktRWJLPu https://whimsical.com/followed-the-money-XKYwPPD6AhhGiPeePDi...

mooreds 5y ago

Do you have a public link for the case?

tempnow987 5y ago
Maybe try this: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17338366/amazoncom-inc-v-wdc-holdings-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17338366/amazoncom-inc-... and this: https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/201743.U.pdf https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/201743.U.pdf With 500 filings you really see how justice is different for white collar folks!

jcranberry 5y ago

Very unfortunate that the wife's career got screwed then by her husbands alleged fraud.

tempnow987 5y ago
It's a bit confusing because she seems to be claiming that his career has been "unfairly" hurt by this case. Not sure what to say to that really - would you hire folks scamming like this?
- hardolaf 5y ago
  Nelson wasn't even working at AWS when the Northstar deal got approved and no evidence was actually submitted in any court against him. This article is about someone who probably has clean hands in all of this but got dragnetted by the FBI and Amazon for being part of the approval process before he left the company.
  - tempnow987 5y ago
    I thought he was at the dinner where they came up with the kickback deal, and then had withdrawal privilege's on the trust where the funds went according to the complaint. Didn't he and the other TM set up two new corps (I think Nelsons was call AllCore or similar) while they were at Amazon to help get the funds funneled back?
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  But she wasn't charged with anything? I don't understand why the feds have to destroy her business and take all the family funds. Usually it's a tactic to make the children suffer, so the parents suffer more. The feds don't really care at all about who they destroy or who is a thrown under the bus including children. Not their problem.
  - ltbarcly3 5y ago
    I think this is shifting blame, the father could have avoided any harm to his children by not engaging in dozens of multi million dollar felony frauds. Or by simply keeping his assets which are tainted with stolen money totally fire-walled from his wife's. As soon as they intermingled accounts there is no sense of 'which dollar was honest and used to invest in his wife's business', everything is tainted.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

The Geekwire articles on the investigation are interesting: https://www.geekwire.com/2021/former-aws-real-estate-managers-accused-taking-millions-kickbacks-challenge-amazons-motives-amid-fbi-investigation/ https://www.geekwire.com/2021/former-aws-real-estate-manager... They have a transcript of a recorded conversation between two parties to the alleged fraud (not including the person in the linked Medium article) who are communicating their concern that this what they're doing is "federal, FBI-type stuff", so they seem to be well aware that they were doing something wrong. It's baffling that they not only would have recorded this conversation, but then kept it around for the FBI to find and enter into record. Unless, of course, the person who recorded it did so intentionally and offered it to the FBI in exchange for something. Crime is strange.

tempnow987 5y ago
The guy recording was mad because two folks were doing a land flip scam and front-running him and hadn't cut him in. But they turned out to know about the lease scam that he had going with these two amazon employees. So basically he was trying to catch them out on their flip scam and was trying to record for that. Full disclosure, Nelson and his wife are apparently claiming al the allegations are false? So it's all allegations despite the insane paper trail.
- greyhair 5y ago
  There is no honor among thieves.

buscoquadnary 5y ago

He may be guilty as hell but the fact of the matter is that doesn't mean the FBI can just take his stuff, it doesn't matter how guilty you look until you are convicted you are innocent, and the fact that it has been 20 months and there still haven't been any charges brought is ridiculous. Their money was taken before they were convicted and now they are not receiving a speedy and fair trial. It is unconstitutional and wrong, it also sets a precedent, how long before the FBI finds out someone politically unpopular is being "investigated" another nice thing is that once they take your money good luck affording lawyers fees. Ultimately I was watching a trial steam once and there was a defence lawyer stated that the purpose of a defense lawyer isn't to make sure their client gets off it is too make sure their clients rights are protected and the state plays by the rules. I don't care how guilty someone is they are innocent until proven otherwise.

babyshake 5y ago
Civil rights and civil liberties must be fought for, repeatedly. Those in power will only do what is constitutionally required of them when they are forced to do so.
tempnow987 5y ago
I'm not in favor of civil asset forfeiture. That said, hard to believe they have no idea WHY it was seized. And in white collar crimes, the case lengths are unnecessarily long and the money is often hard to recover. They should work on both those issues longer term. After Amazon wins it's lawsuits these folks will be filing various bankruptcy claims and the money will have been distributed all over the place (some to lawyers, some not) over the 5-10 years it takes to fight these out.
- giancarlostoro 5y ago
  > I'm not in favor of civil asset forfeiture. Might be a bit much to say... but I know some historic figures who would of raised arms over such a thing even existing. I have not heard a case where it even makes legal sense to do so.

sbuttgereit 5y ago

The unfortunate part, assuming the allegations are shown to be true in any meaningful capacity, is that those that support civil forfeiture might say, "see, this is a case of the forfeiture system working as its suppose to work... depriving criminals of their ill-gotten gains." Of course, the real argument they're trying to avoid having to make with the forfeiture "hack" is: due process of law is not required for just legal outcomes and may be an impediment to a just legal outcome. Of course that line of thought, and the successful practice of civil forfeiture to such an aim, requires a purity of virtue, morality, and rationality of law enforcement officers and prosecutors that no thoughtful observer would think it achievable. That's the whole reason due process of law and the rights of accused exist: you simply cannot trust any one person or group to find a just outcome on their own... and even then our due process is often not enough to accomplish real justice.

briffle 5y ago
That is kind of the basic ugly fact of the US system. If you want rights, you need to support others that you don't like having those same rights. There have been several times where they ACLU has stepped in on behalf of the KKK to garuntee their rights to protest/rally. Its ugly, but taking the rights away from one group because you disagree with them is a very slippery slope.
kodah 5y ago
> The unfortunate part, assuming the allegations are shown to be true in any meaningful capacity, is that those that support civil forfeiture might say, "see, this is a case of the forfeiture system working as its suppose to work... depriving criminals of their ill-gotten gains." Bernie Madoff is their shining example of this, and routinely paraded by the authorities.

strathmeyer 5y ago

When you get pulled over by a cop and the cop pulls the cash out of your wallet and says "you know I can keep this, right?", that's what we're talking about, not whatever you are droning on about.

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

Even if all this were true, there should have to be a trial first to prove this in a court of law before assets are seized.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

tomohawk 5y ago

This is a synopsis of allegations. Made by an extremely large and powerful corporation with (apparently) connections in the FBI. Unless proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there's no point at all to be made. Stating this all as fact until proven is irresponsible.

tempnow987 5y ago
> Stating this all as fact until proven is irresponsible. "Anyways, all allegations, and thousands of pages so I've no doubt got some parts wrong, but it makes for interesting reading!" - from my note. This is reddit type response, where you assert something in my post that is simply not there. Kind of shameful really.
- tomohawk 5y ago
  > Basic deal was Watson (who ran Northstar) a property developer signed a deal to kick back referral fees to an entity that did literally no work (Villanova Trust) created by a brother of the two amazon employees (Nelson and Kirschner) who were the transaction managers for 9 data center lease deals. The kickback deal was signed after these two Amazon employees met with Watson (the Vendor). The statement above is but one of many in your post that are very definitive as to what occurred. No "alleged to" or any other equivocation on the verbs. This is all stated like these are indisputable findings of fact. There's nothing shameful in pointing this out. Having a statement buried elsewhere in a largish post doesn't fix the carelessness.

bllc 5y ago

I can't even with all the whinging about forfeiture. I read back through the Geekwire coverage and filings after reading the original article. The victim narrative by the defendants in this case has been pretty selective with the facts. Here are the facts from the filings: the Nelsons got caught laundering more than $2M of the $11M in kickbacks they took. This $2M works its way through accounts and entities controlled by Nelson and Kirschner's lawyers, Kirschner's brother, and Amy Sterner Nelson's father. It then moves into and out of 8 bank accounts owned by the Nelsons, as well as two other smaller accounts owned by the Kirschers and Johnny Lim (who looks like just a conduit to launder $1MM to the Nelsons and Kirschners). The US government seizes $658K from 9 accounts, each of which received funds laundered through the Nelson scheme. Only one of the accounts had a seized balance that was greater than the amount of kickback money laundered into it (Nelson Citi #7373, $25K seized versus $12K of kickbacks transferred). Overall, $2.3M of kickback money was transfered into the accounts the government seized. Given the government seized $658K, the Nelsons were able to spend or move elsewhere nearly $1.7M of the kickback money. From other posts, Amy Sterner Nelson's story was that there was no money. There was money, and the government has the receipts. There was at least $2M of kickback money transfered into their accounts, and $1.7M of that wasn't seized. Almost all of that $2M moves through a company controlled by James Sterner, Amy Sterner Nelson's father. I think I'm most baffled why you would move money around like this and not expect to get caught. I wonder what this all looks like through the IRS lens. It's never hard to follow the money, but it does take a little time: https://whimsical.com/followed-the-money-XKYwPPD6AhhGiPeePDi4iw@2Ux7TurymMp2ktRWJLPu https://whimsical.com/followed-the-money-XKYwPPD6AhhGiPeePDi...