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25 Gbit/s internet as a normal customer
- YaBomm 5y agoFor the Swiss market
- zucker42 5y agoWhat also amazing is that there's no extra charge for increasing speeds. That would be unheard of in the US, where artificial segmentation is the norm.
- baybal2 5y agoThe extra charge is in installation fee, but yeah, for 800 USD the cost of 25Gbps transmitter is negligible over letting go of a client needing more than 10Gbps, and ready to pay for it. Note, it's not a PON, but real symmetric, point-to-point connection. I once had 250mbps over 1000BaseLX, and it was way more expensive than 500mbps GePON coming after it.
- joshstrange 5y agoSo $843.60/yr ($70.3/mo) + a 1-time $361.54 fee? I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. I pay a little over $100 for 1Gbps symmetrical plus a static IP.
- Enginerrrd 5y agoI'd take YOUR deal in a heartbeat. I pay $110/month for 75Mbps down / 10Mbps up and 300GB data. They also constantly harass me with upsells and raise prices 10% per year.
- joshstrange 5y agoDang, that's rough. I'll fully admit I got super lucky. My ISP is MetroNet and you wouldn't necessarily think Lexington, KY would have fiber at all or if they did that it would be a good deal but thankfully MetroNet serves my area and has great prices. I wish they were in OH as well so I could move my parents over to them, they are stuck on Spectrum.
- EvanAnderson 5y agoThey're in Ohio now in a limited area: https://getmetronetinternet.com/availability/#metronet-ohio https://getmetronetinternet.com/availability/#metronet-ohio They're expanding aggressively in those areas, too.
- joshstrange 5y agoThat’s great news! Still waiting on Columbus/Dublin but I’ll keep an eye out. Last I checked I don’t think they had anything in OH so this is progress.
- heywire 5y agoYep, we have Metronet here and it has been pretty great (North of Dayton)
- EvanAnderson 5y agoI'm also near Dayton. I should just buckle down and get their service. I don't really want to be behind CGNAT and the $10 / mo fee for a static public IP address seems steep. My friends who are using the service like it, though.
- heywire 5y agoI haven’t encountered any issues with CGNAT, nor has my son, who plays way more Xbox than he should. I use Tailscale when I need to access something at home while out and about, and have considered using cloudflare tunnels for hosting from home.
- xattt 5y agoTangential, but is a brand-new XGPON rollout more expensive to the provider than a DOCSIS 4.0 rollout?
- spaniard89277 5y agoAny gpon is cheaper than any docsis. HFC not only requires laying cables, the equipment is also expensive and it needs more power, so you have to pay for that too.
- syntaxing 5y agoIf you’re in the US, you can try out T-Mobile ISP. I get 300 down/ 20 up pretty consistently and no throttle. Ping sucks but can’t complain at $50 a month.
- kingcharles 5y agoI second this, it's 5G, just plug in and go. The cheapest wired Internet I could get here in downtown Chicago on my block was $70,000+ installation, then $800 / month. I was spending $400 / month on my cell phone bill just for data before I switched to T-Mobile Home Internet.
- djdjfhsje33edh 5y agoHow does downtown Chicago not have anything like standard DSL or cable internet packages?
- kingcharles 5y agoThey do in places.. just some city blocks are black holes. I don't know why. The blocks on every side of me have standard DSL and cable connections. I had multiple teams from Comcast, AT&T etc etc out here for surveys. Comcast initially stated it would cost me $68,000 to run a cable from the next block. Then they said that must be an error and sent another survey team out who came back and said yes, it was an error, the real cost would be $71,000.
- jrnichols 5y agowe're seeing AT&T Fiber in this area (Northern California) offering 2000/2000 for that price. goes up to 5000/5000 too. it's been a surprisingly stable and solid product.
- branko_d 5y agoI currently live in Kazakhstan (Aktobe) and I pay 6000 KZT ($14) for 200 Mb/s symmetrical over fiber, no setup cost. I could get 500 Mb/s for 8000 KZT, but don't really feel any need for it. It always puzzled me why internet in the US is so expensive. I heard the argument that the sheer size of the US makes the infrastructure expensive, but Kazakhstan is even "bigger" per capita, and not exactly known for being an "advanced economy", yet here we are...
- folkrav 5y agoDamn. 120/20 for CAD$60 over here, and I have an actually pretty solid deal as far as Canadian internet prices go.
- jraph 5y agoI wouldn't, 13€/mo for unlimited 1Gbps down, 60M up, static IP and have never been bothered by these limits, especially for the cost (wouldn't hurt to have a higher upload speed since I host some stuff but that has not been a problem yet).
- iqanq 5y ago60M up, lmao. Let me guess, HFC
- mskullcap 5y agoAnd, 200 TV channels at no extra cost!
- andrei_says_ 5y agoTime. Watching TV costs time - the real unobtanium ;)
- boring_twenties 5y agoI'm on Comcast. I would pay triple that in a heartbeat and smile while doing it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y agoI pay a little over $70/mo for 200Mbx10Mb. If this service were available to me at twice the price I'd still consider it a deal.
- taneq 5y agoThat's less than I'm paying for 100/40 Mbit VDSL2.
- jewel 5y agoWhat sort of opportunities would open up if this sort of connection were ubiquitous? I could see netbooting your desktop to avoid having to buy a hard drive. Also instead of downloading large game assets they could just stream on demand. (Even though downloads would go really fast anyway.) 4K and 8K video streams are already done reasonably at 100 mbps. Some sort of 3D point cloud streaming?
- zhaso 5y agoWhile yes, the bandwidth is certainly enough and comparable to fast (but not fastest) consumer-grade storage these days (2-3 GB/s), I'd be more concerned with latency issues as NVMe tends to have latency on the order of microseconds (so ~1/1000th that of a very low single-digit internet latency).
- TheSoftwareGuy 5y agoProbably better video calls for one thing. If more bandwidth is available then you don't need to do as much work copmressing & decompressing the signal on each end
- solatic 5y agoIf you're uploading streaming video directly to consumers, without an intermediary cache (e.g. YouTube), your upload needs can essentially reach infinity. It's just a question of how many people are trying to view the stream, at what level of quality, at the same time. If you need an intermediary cache, you're more likely to be censored by the intermediary or the political jurisdiction in which the intermediary is found. 25 Gb/s, in this light, is small.
- infogulch 5y agoYes, 25Gb/s is just enough to begin hosting your own high quality video content to a small community of people and handle mild spikes in traffic. This is probably the first point that there is enough bandwidth to satisfy that need for the majority of people.
- ksec 5y ago>CHF 64.75/month with annual billing (CHF 777.-/year) CHF 64.75 = ~$70USD. But why does 1 / 10 / 25Gbps all cost the same? I am wondering if there are any cheap Swiss Cloud Storage that one could make use of the upload and download speed. You really could have an external HDD in a DataCenter.
- bauruine 5y agoDefine cheap. I use Swissbackup [0] which is around 4$ per TB. And rsync.net is at init7 IIRC. [0] https://www.infomaniak.com/de/swiss-backup/tarife https://www.infomaniak.com/de/swiss-backup/tarife
- ftth_finland 5y agoBecause bandwidth is cheap and people don’t use very much of it on average. The one-time fee is for covering the expense of the faster optic. The only expensive thing is the fiber optic line to your house. As long as that’s paid for, bandwidth usage is small potatoes.
- AnotherGoodName 5y agoI have 1gbps. I had to get a decent router. Cheap home routers can't handle it even when they outright claim they can. You also want something better than cat5 for home wiring. Lastly spinning hard drives wont keep up on sustained reads/writes you need an SSD. The above is things you should do when you have 1gbps in order to actually get those speeds. I know people will argue citing 640k being enough for everyone and have some edge case that needs this but.... 25gbps is overkill.
- felixr 5y agoOn how to build a router that can make use of the 25GBps: https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2021-07-10-linux-25gbit-internet-router-pc-build/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2021-07-10-linux-25gbit-...
- xattt 5y agoWhat’s your decent router? I’m in the market for something fresh and an Edgerouter-4 is looking long in the tooth…
- hak8or 5y agoMikrotik makes some very capable routers. The Rb4011 is incredibly powerful and very low power, and has an SFP+ port, so you can use a sfp+ to rj45 if needed, or straight modem -> sfp+ connection, to get faster than 1 gig speeds. It has a steep learning curve though, albeit it's extremely rewarding and powerful once you gwr over that curve. It should handle routing 1 gig with zero issues, and is under $200. You can do bonding, vlans, esoteric ip rules, and tons of "misc" functionality. Do not go with ubiquiti, their hardware is very poor and their UI is very buggy and simply poorly designed, it's focused on people who know a bit above an average person about networking, which I suspect is not the case for most people here.
- bombcar 5y agoI have that router, and it can do up to about 2.5Gb/s with actual routing. I have it on a 10GBe direct connect to my "main" 4 port switch, but that just means it can take in multiple unrouted LAN segments. Once you start doing much esoteric the speed slows down, if you get off the fast path it can be pretty intense (thought they do sell bigger ones that can route more packets).
- digitallyfree 5y agoI would expect such a service to ban hosting services on the "private" plan, or have strict conditions on what is considered acceptable use. However I see nothing of that sort in their contracts with the exception of this line in their Contractual Conditions. "3. Fair Use Policy The Internet subscriptions for private customers are intended for normal personal use. Init7 reserves the right to temporarily or permanently restrict or discontinue the provision of services for connections whose data volume exceeds 0.5 petabyte (500 terabytes) in a period of 4 weeks, or to take another suitable measure." (https://www.init7.net/de/kleingedrucktes/072021_contractual-conditions-init7.pdf https://www.init7.net/de/kleingedrucktes/072021_contractual-...) You can build some serious infrastructure on 500T/4weeks on a 25Gbps line, service uptime withstanding. They also provide optional /29 subnets with the private plan so it looks like it's intended for more than just personal browsing.
- jagrsw 5y agoThere's big competition esp. in the Zurich area. I don't understand all historical peculiarities behind this, but it has something to do with monopolistic position of Swisscom - their old national telecom company. As a part of de-monopolization they made it lease links to any willing ISP (bit-stream access?), so many ISPs arose, and they have relatively "cheap" and advanced offerings: 1Gb/s, 10Gb/s, 25Gb/s, fixed IPs, IPv6 etc. This bitstream access is now extended to pretty much anyone who installs FTTH. E.g. one can have it installed by a city or cantonal electrical company or TV provider, but still be able to buy IP access from pretty much anyone through some form of open market - https://litexchange.ch/ https://litexchange.ch/
- hocuspocus 5y agoUnbundling (the copper lines) and open fiber deployments are different things. Many municipalities still haven't gotten fiber deployments from the local utilities, and in practice you can be stuck on Swisscom's fiber. It's not too bad since several ISPs are also able to use it: for instance Sunrise before (I'm not sure they still allow it), but also Init7 (their Hybrid7 offering). However an ISP like Salt uses only open fiber, at least for now. Salt and Sunrise had signed an agreement to push for extensive open fiber deployments by 2027. But then the deal blew up when Sunrise got acquired by UPC, since they'd rather use the existing DOCSIS infrastructure in the less dense areas. Swisscom was going to push its own deployment as well (even though G.fast is not bad) and Salt was now interested in chipping in, but soon after the Comco has stopped Swisscom from using P2MP which is a big setback in its strategy to cover sub-urban areas. I understand the decision to enforce P2P deployments and give smaller ISPs a fair chance but it's definitely going to hinder the speed of new deployments. I believe we're rich enough, and we should mandate (and fund) open deployments in all these sub-urban municipalities that won't do it on their own.
- jagrsw 5y agoThey moved installing infra in my "commune" from December 2021 to mid-2022, and when asked on twitter, they told me it's a). supply chain problems, the time for router/optics delivery increased by a couple of months b). they want to lower pressure on their employees who need to install new infra during night I'm already using Mikrotik CCR-2004 with 10Gb/s + 1Gb/s links, it has 2x28Gbps ports, so it should be fine when init7 comes here. Though, with CCR-2004 I'm seeing about 50% CPU usage with 8Gbps up or down, which means I won't be able to use full 25Gb/s with it, most likely 20Gb/s max. And no, there's no specific reason for me to have it - it's just the price is sort-a the same as local 1Gb/s and 10Gb/s offerings.
- sschueller 5y agoThe reason this is available for this price in every house in the city of Zürich is because of a law that passed requiring every house to have fiber. The infrastructure is operated by the power and phone company and any service provider can use this fiber. I hope the whole of Switzerland will do something similar because there are still a lot of places without good internet and fiber is quite future proof. Home office out of a mountain cabin would be cool...
- Youden 5y agoIt's not just the city of Zürich, Adliswil has it too, at the very least. I believe Init7 leases fibre from Swisscom in other locations. My understanding is that federal law requires Swisscom to give access to its infrastructure to other companies for a fair price.
- bauruine 5y agoYes Swisscom has to lease it's infrastructure to every ISP the product is called BBCS [0] [0] https://www.swisscom.ch/en/business/wholesale/angebot/anschluesse/BBCS.html https://www.swisscom.ch/en/business/wholesale/angebot/anschl...
- samstave 5y agoGee... wouldnt it be cool if the USA paid telecoms $400,000,000,000 to build out said infra? Oh wait.. The Book Of Broken Promises: $400 Billion Broadband Scandal And Free The Net https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5839394 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5...
- djdjfhsje33edh 5y agoWriting out all of the zeros in $400 billion doesn't make your point any more compelling.
- samstave 5y agoThats because my point is compelling enough
- Youden 5y agoI'm waiting for mine to be installed. Does anyone have thoughts on appropriate hardware/software? At the moment I'm just running a Linux machine as my router, using standard nftables for NAT and firewall, but I'm curious what others think.
- spaniard89277 5y agoIMO the only hardware without getting into very expensive stuff is Mikrotik. Turris may be an option, but I'm not sure.
- vkoskiv 5y agoI think pfsense on a beefy enough system should be quite suitable for that kind of thing. Also, congrats!
- mrtri 5y ago
- bullen 5y agoThe problem with >1GB/s is the energy you need to saturate it. 10GB/s needs a 10+W router and you'll need atleast 50W of compute behind that. On lead-acid if you want long battery life and a good uptime you'll need atleast 4x 50Ah batteries. 25GB/s does not scale without waste unless you are ok with having 10x lead-acid batteries in the room where you live/sleep because that energy is heating. Dunno about the hydrogen problem. Lithium only fixes the space problem in exchange of fire hazards, a hefty price increase and short battery life.
- eof 5y agoLithium has much longer battery life? At least in terms of number of cycles.
- bullen 5y agoYou don't need cycles, unless power outages are frequent. (good point but power outages are probably going to be correlated to our capacity to make lithium batteries at all) Lithium has ~half the longevity compared to lead-acid unless you heat/cool them like Tesla to keep them at a stable temperature (too high/low and the longevity drops like a stone because of tiny impurities between the metal sheets). NiMH is actually my preferred battery tech now, but it's WAY too expensive for the Ah you need for anything beyond say a maglite solitare LED (awesome torch btw). Lithium and high power vehicles are completely meaningless for the wider human population in the long run because electricity is NOT an energy source.
- TheSoftwareGuy 5y agoI'm confused, 50W is not a lot of electricity for an outlet. Why would you need batteries?
- vel0city 5y agoBattery backups for when the power goes out. There's a high correlation to the power going out to the needs of being able to communicate. If your main modes of communication go down during an emergency things can get pretty bad.
- mosselman 5y agoThat makes for some nice at-home data center posibilities.
- uvesten 5y agoThis is the ISP that I’m using, and they are insanely great, imho. I especially like that you get a static IPv6 /28 for free, something that has finally made me learn IPv6 in depth. Still only on 1 Gb/s fiber though, because I havent found any router that is 10 or 25 Gbps that I’d really like to have at home. Are there any good consumer-grade 10 or 25 gbps routers? Also, what is up with all computers _still_ having 1 gbps ethernet ports? It’s been the standard forever, feels like. Why arent there more computers with 10 GbE as standard?
- bauruine 5y ago>static IPv6 /28 I guess you mean /48. Even as a LIR the default assignment from RIPE is a /32.
- uvesten 5y agoYup, typo!
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y agoBecause 10Gbps is a lot more complicated and processing intensive, and almost nobody is in a position to take advantage of it anyway.
- teaearlgraycold 5y agoI think it isn't too hard to get consumer-grade 2.5Gb hardware
- SamuelAdams 5y agoAny recommendations? I’m currently using a Protect CLI 4 port vault running PFSense. Want to replace it with a 2.5gb or higher device but I can’t find anything.
- teaearlgraycold 5y agoI don't have any specific recs - I've just seen desktop motherboards with 2.5Gb/s and my boring standard AT&T fiber box has a 2.5Gb/s LAN port on it. If you're already running a device like that Protectli then maybe you'd be comfortable building a small-form-factor PC with a 2 port 2.5Gb/s ethernet card (around $40) and running it to a 4-port 2.5Gb/s switch (around $125 for this TRENDnet one I see on Amazon). You could even install PFSense on the PC and keep your setup mostly unchanged.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago25 Gbit sounds nice, but even my 1 Gbit line is mostly wasted. I use a Raspberry Pi as my torrent box which seems to cap out at 7 MB/sec write speed. Even Steam tends to only download at 30-50 MB/sec most of the time. People tend to grossly overestimate how much bandwidth they need, especially non-technical people. Even a 100 Mbit connection is more than capable of letting a family of five all stream Netflix at the same time, but that won't stop Xfinity from up-selling them to a 300 Mbit plan.
- was_a_dev 5y agoI currently pay for 78Mbps for myself and my partner. At most I am going to downloading something from steam (~10Mbps), watching something from YouTube (~10Mbps) and my partner will be streaming something to the TV (~10Mbps) Even at this extreme there's still ample headroom, and our rate is ISP limited; so the line can do much more.
- dcow 5y agoI have a 1G symmetric line and with a fast enough disk write setup I can hit ~108MB/s for Steam downloads and still be on video calls and stream content simultaneously (different people usually). It’s definitely not wasted for us.
- was_a_dev 5y agoFrom what I can tell, with Steam, I limited by the datacenter itself. I have friends in my local area, and also nearer the same datacenter, all on much higher bandwidths and write speed, but still hit 10Mbps at best. Saying that, I am no Steam power-user. Most games will be <10GB with updates <1GB At this point, I have no services or use cases for anything faster.
- dcow 5y agoSymmetric 1G also lets you run services legit out of your home which is nice occasionally.
- smilekzs 5y agoMeanwhile in the Silicon Valley, I am stuck with DOCSIS3.1 at 800Mbps down and ~35Mbps up (Comcast Gigabit) and zero fiber options...
- zokier 5y agoI got a feeling that any service not sitting behind a major CDN would struggle to feed more than handful of 25Gbit/s clients. That is maybe the biggest reason I feel >1Gbps for consumers at this point is kinda dubious prospect.
- notimetorelax 5y agoYou can think of it differently - multiple people in your household can access different services or multiple 4K streams without interfering with each other.
- reincarnate0x14 5y ago4K streams rarely spike above 50 Mb so that'd be a really big house before you'd notice. As someone with symmetric 1Gb, it is really nice in that the effective distance from your house to anywhere and anywhere to your house becomes a lot smaller. With Gb+ backing it, cloud storage with a local cache becomes an attractive alternative to ever buying disks again.
- _nickwhite 5y agoIt would be great to see ISPs in the USA, even rural or municipal ISPs begin offering this. The biggest issue I see with doing this (for residential users) is the fiber handoff. For 25Gbit, the very minimum is going to be a SFP28 module with an LC connector. The linked Init7 article is a bit light on details, but consumer grade hardware is not even close to that that in 2022. (SFP Ports OR the packet processing power to move that much traffic!) Maybe the OTO Init7 installs on the house breaks it out into multiple 1Gbit or 10Gbit links to be more compatible? Even then, in the USA, basic SFP+ 10Gbit fiber, (inside the house) is rare in a residential setting. (Most fiber-based ISPs in the USA provide a 1Gbit copper uplink inside the house.)
- dcow 5y agoIf you turn on nerd mode, they offer /48 IPv6 prefixes to customers as a standard feature. That means they have a true /32. Most consumer IPv6 infra, if it exists at all, is /60 or /56 which really is kinda measly.
- Melatonic 5y agoGod damn this would be awesome