4 ms·

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree... Things aren't that bad, but I've definitely noticed a lot more cases of downvoting of "against the grain" comme

by berkut 5y ago

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree... Things aren't that bad, but I've definitely noticed a lot more cases of downvoting of "against the grain" comments or opinions with often very few responses in the last couple of years. Previously, I rarely noticed heavily downvoted comments, and in the cases they were, there were almost always reply comments explaining the opposite side, leading to IMO much better discourse and discussion.

larrik 5y ago
Maybe, but 5-10 years ago Apple-bashing was a karma death sentence (never guess how I learned that). Now it seems to be more of an active discussion (mostly due to the MBP keyboard situation I guess?).
- rubatuga 5y ago
  Damn that used to be such a big deal a few years ago. You don’t see it anymore.
- fouc 5y ago
  When I see a lot of downvotes I usually ask myself "what do they know that I don't?" I would assume some portion of downvotes are due to a knowledge disparity. And if there's a lot of downvotes against my comment, then there's a chance I'm missing some key knowledge.
- modeless 5y ago
  Big Tech bashing is in fashion, is that really a surprise? It's totally mainstream now. That doesn't mean HN is more accepting of alternative viewpoints in general. Maybe even the opposite.
Covzire 5y ago
I've only been browsing here for about 10 of the 15 years, but I remember a time when the discussions closely matched what I and the public at large could discuss in private without fear. But there has been a chilling effect in recent years where more and more topics become verboten and someone will get downvoted, at a minimum, for even bringing them up. Interesting topics and child threads go missing on the regular. We're even at a point now where certain corporate press releases cannot even be questioned at all, despite the same corporations being stuck with heavy fines for similar past behavior they're being accused of now. I still like HN for the purely technical aspects, but I don't know anyone who still views it as a place where complex ideas that affect society can be discussed anymore.
- ineptech 5y ago
  "Verboten" is a strong word; to my mind that refers to things that can't be discussed because they would challenge the power structure, like how you can't talk about Tank Guy in Chinese social media. That's not HN. When you get downvoted for hot-button political stuff, that's like getting shushed for talking about football in church. It's not censored, but this isn't the place for it.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  I've been thinking of building an HN clone for politics and society. The requirement to post would be an account of the same name on HN, validated through something like a code on your profile, and only for users above a certain karma threshold. It basically outsourced the work of making sure users are of decent tech savviness and good faith.
- dang 5y ago
  > certain corporate press releases cannot even be questioned at all That doesn't sound right! What is an example?
Terry_Roll 5y ago
There is online manipulation here and pretty much everywhere else where people can discuss things. It can come in a variety of forms. https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/109634/1/MPRA_paper_109634.pdf https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/109634/1/MPRA_paper_109634.p... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-op... Reputation Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reputation_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reputation_management which obviously protects income streams for entities, but the military also protect businesses online because they are protecting money coming in from abroad, this is what politics is all about, placating the public which business gets its way, stuff you probably dont need to know about and so wont be taught about it.
- bluedays 5y ago
  I have noticed the same, but when I have mentioned this in the past I have been downvoted and told that I am being "conspiratorial". This is definitely a problem on Hacker News, because it is a website beholden to a company (YCombinator). This company has a vested interest in ensuring that the messages on Hacker News reflect what the popular narrative is as it reflects upon them personally. In other words as long as large companies control the medium the messages will be controlled by said company. There is only the illusion of free speech on the Internet. You can say whatever you want, but don't be surprised if nobody can hear you.
- dang 5y ago
  Such things of course exist but the problem is that internet users are inclined to see astroturfing, shilling, brigading, state actors, and so on in every comment they dislike. Then they react aggressively as if they are uncovering crimes, which pushes discussion quality downhill. That's why we ask people not to post that way unless they have actual evidence (in which case they should be sending it to hn@ycombinator.com so we can investigate). Someone else having a disagreeable view does not count as evidence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

by berkut 5y ago

larrik 5y ago

Maybe, but 5-10 years ago Apple-bashing was a karma death sentence (never guess how I learned that). Now it seems to be more of an active discussion (mostly due to the MBP keyboard situation I guess?).

rubatuga 5y ago
Damn that used to be such a big deal a few years ago. You don’t see it anymore.
fouc 5y ago
When I see a lot of downvotes I usually ask myself "what do they know that I don't?" I would assume some portion of downvotes are due to a knowledge disparity. And if there's a lot of downvotes against my comment, then there's a chance I'm missing some key knowledge.
modeless 5y ago
Big Tech bashing is in fashion, is that really a surprise? It's totally mainstream now. That doesn't mean HN is more accepting of alternative viewpoints in general. Maybe even the opposite.

Covzire 5y ago

I've only been browsing here for about 10 of the 15 years, but I remember a time when the discussions closely matched what I and the public at large could discuss in private without fear. But there has been a chilling effect in recent years where more and more topics become verboten and someone will get downvoted, at a minimum, for even bringing them up. Interesting topics and child threads go missing on the regular. We're even at a point now where certain corporate press releases cannot even be questioned at all, despite the same corporations being stuck with heavy fines for similar past behavior they're being accused of now. I still like HN for the purely technical aspects, but I don't know anyone who still views it as a place where complex ideas that affect society can be discussed anymore.

ineptech 5y ago
"Verboten" is a strong word; to my mind that refers to things that can't be discussed because they would challenge the power structure, like how you can't talk about Tank Guy in Chinese social media. That's not HN. When you get downvoted for hot-button political stuff, that's like getting shushed for talking about football in church. It's not censored, but this isn't the place for it.
unethical_ban 5y ago
I've been thinking of building an HN clone for politics and society. The requirement to post would be an account of the same name on HN, validated through something like a code on your profile, and only for users above a certain karma threshold. It basically outsourced the work of making sure users are of decent tech savviness and good faith.
dang 5y ago
> certain corporate press releases cannot even be questioned at all That doesn't sound right! What is an example?

Terry_Roll 5y ago

There is online manipulation here and pretty much everywhere else where people can discuss things. It can come in a variety of forms. https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/109634/1/MPRA_paper_109634.pdf https://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/109634/1/MPRA_paper_109634.p... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-op... Reputation Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reputation_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reputation_management which obviously protects income streams for entities, but the military also protect businesses online because they are protecting money coming in from abroad, this is what politics is all about, placating the public which business gets its way, stuff you probably dont need to know about and so wont be taught about it.

bluedays 5y ago
I have noticed the same, but when I have mentioned this in the past I have been downvoted and told that I am being "conspiratorial". This is definitely a problem on Hacker News, because it is a website beholden to a company (YCombinator). This company has a vested interest in ensuring that the messages on Hacker News reflect what the popular narrative is as it reflects upon them personally. In other words as long as large companies control the medium the messages will be controlled by said company. There is only the illusion of free speech on the Internet. You can say whatever you want, but don't be surprised if nobody can hear you.
dang 5y ago
Such things of course exist but the problem is that internet users are inclined to see astroturfing, shilling, brigading, state actors, and so on in every comment they dislike. Then they react aggressively as if they are uncovering crimes, which pushes discussion quality downhill. That's why we ask people not to post that way unless they have actual evidence (in which case they should be sending it to hn@ycombinator.com so we can investigate). Someone else having a disagreeable view does not count as evidence. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...