30 ms·

If you felt you were underpaid, leaving is fair. I don't really understand the requirement that all bosses are paid more than those they supervise, though. I me

If you felt you were underpaid, leaving is fair. I don't really understand the requirement that all bosses are paid more than those they supervise, though. I mean, emotionally I can understand feeling that way. But I don't think it's a rule of nature or something. For instance, coaches often make less than their star players. Directors and producers often make less than star actors. Hospital directors seem to make less than surgeons.

soco 5y ago
Here in Switzerland, most of the non-IT people I'm talking with are genuinely surprised that for instance project managers are paid less that developers. For them just hearing the word "manager" = big buck.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Supply and demand at work I guess; if it's easier to get project managers than developers it becomes obvious which one should be paid more.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  Whenever I hear the term "Project Manager", and imagine all of the confusion collectively experienced by anyone who has had to explain that job, I think of Mr Burns from the Simpsons saying "Am I that out of touch? No, it's the KIDS who are wrong". Let's call it "Project Coordinator" or "Project Advocate" or something.
  - ThalesX 5y ago
    Let’s call them “Project Secretary”, that should tune them down a bit…
3pt14159 5y ago
My boss doesn't know how much I'm paid. I like it that way. He communicates how he feels I'm doing to the people that need to know and it's working out ok.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  This sounds like an unusual arrangement. Who actually determines your pay?
  - 988747 5y ago
    It is often called "matrix structure", in which you have two bosses: HR boss that knows your salary, and day-to-day project boss that does not.
- ldoughty 5y ago
  I find that interesting, and also concerning.. but I suppose it depends on the office culture. I tried to ignore my peers and direct reports salaries when I first moved into management... I lost an employee after 2 years when another place offered him a 80% raise. At that point, I realized I couldn't count on a 3rd party to properly evaluate an employee's worth, and I started to take an active role in ensuring people are paid as close to market as we could afford (though, as a non-profit, we struggle to compete for technical talent)
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    > I lost an employee after 2 years when another place offered him a 80% raise. First, I'd say it's quite normal in non-profits. Second, I believe that in a structure when you don't know the salary of your reports, there is always someone they can discuss it with if they feel they deserve more - and that person would definitely consult your opinion then.
  - 3pt14159 5y ago
    Well, I make a lot. I'm sure my boss is aware of that. I don't know a single person that is paid this much in Toronto and doesn't have to manage others. Not even close. So maybe that's why he doesn't need to know.
gwbas1c 5y ago
> lead of my team A lead isn't a manager or boos. That being said, a lead is frequently more valuable than the followers.
bluGill 5y ago
Traditional companies paid manager more, but supply and demand of engineers vs managers means that more and more middle management is making less than engineers.
nerdponx 5y ago
I think this makes a lot of sense. Management is not "better", it is simply "different". And in terms of actual value delivered to the business, I doubt that a low/mid-level manager delivers significantly more than an experienced and productive individual contributor. Organizations need both good managers and good individual contributors. Clearly managers of technical contributors need enough technical experience to make sound management decisions. But that doesn't seem like a good reason to constantly promote people upwards, nor does it seem like a reason to always pay managers more than ICs by default. However I think in some cases managers end up subject to extra risk if a project goes bad, so they are probably entitled to some increased "hazard pay" for that. (The risk/responsibility structure might be inverted at some toxic dysfunctional organizations, but that's beside the point.)
- gloryjulio 5y ago
  All of your points are valid. But here is the catch which many ICs might not realize. There are far more management positions than pure ICs. It's the unfortunate that you be disadvantaged if you stick to strict ICs path. The competition is also fierce. The talented ICs are so far above the rest (the 10x/100x engineers). It's a simple supply and demand problem. The company needs a lot more of above average managers/hybrids. It's not good for average ICs to stuck to their little world if they want better promotions.
  - hellisothers 5y ago
    Just to clarify when you say IC you mean literally an IC as opposed to the leadership path in an IC vertical? Many companies expect hither level ICs to be leaders in one way or another, you don’t need to go down the management path.
    - gloryjulio 5y ago
      I mean the essence of the problem comes down to people management. If you mean the pure technical role, then yes that's what I am referring to which has far less positions. And usually your competition would be the elites. Because many ICs try to avoid people management. I am not talking about whether there is a such a path for ICs. I am talking about the numbers problem. The unfortunate truth is that there are far more positions involves people management. Engineering manager is good example because ICs can wield their technical skills. But still, this roles still requires you to do substantial people management.
blitzar 5y ago
Telling or managing a player to kick the ball into the back of the net is a lot easier than actually kicking it in the back of the net. Telling or managing a team of 20 people to put products on shelves is a lot harder than putting products on shelves.
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  I like the analogy, but I don't fully agree with it. If the "product on shelf" is a basic CRUD app, then sure, managing a team of 20 people might be harder than doing the individual tasks related to putting the product on shelf, but oftentimes there are challenging technical aspects related to the product. In some cases those technical challenges might be harder than management of the team.
  - aaronblohowiak 5y ago
    Depends on how well isolated the tricksy bits are
  - felipellrocha 5y ago
    have you ever been a manager?
  - blitzar 5y ago
    I was thinking stacking shelves in a supermarket as an example of "putting products on a shelf"; but yes, as the complexity, skills required, technical knowledge or genetic 1 in a million requirement goes up for the managed worker there is a point where the degree of difficulty swaps over.
- Avshalom 5y ago
  >>Telling or managing a team of 20 people to put products on shelves is a lot harder than putting products on shelves. no it isn't
  - blitzar 5y ago
    You think managing minimum wage shelve stackers in a supermarket is easier than actually stacking the sheles in a supermarket?
angarg12 5y ago
Is not about bosses and reports, it's about performance. I wasn't anyone's manager. My role as team lead was to organise, coordinate and supervise my colleague's tasks, on top of my IC contributions. For another example, a guy joined a different team and was killing it, but was getting paid less than another college who was in the company 8 years and was hardly pulling his own weight.
daniel-cussen 5y ago
In Wall Street it's common for CEOs to make say 30 million dollars, not more, supervising sick but like SICK traders that haul in arbitrary amounts. Also whalers in California, there were groups of guys like "we're a great team, we're men, we know how to swim, let's hunt Grey Whales" and hired a captain. On a ship it is imperative to do whatever the captain says, but that doesn't mean the hierarchy exists on shore with the money. There were also captains who hired sailors, more often.

soco 5y ago

Here in Switzerland, most of the non-IT people I'm talking with are genuinely surprised that for instance project managers are paid less that developers. For them just hearing the word "manager" = big buck.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Supply and demand at work I guess; if it's easier to get project managers than developers it becomes obvious which one should be paid more.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Whenever I hear the term "Project Manager", and imagine all of the confusion collectively experienced by anyone who has had to explain that job, I think of Mr Burns from the Simpsons saying "Am I that out of touch? No, it's the KIDS who are wrong". Let's call it "Project Coordinator" or "Project Advocate" or something.
- ThalesX 5y ago
  Let’s call them “Project Secretary”, that should tune them down a bit…

3pt14159 5y ago

My boss doesn't know how much I'm paid. I like it that way. He communicates how he feels I'm doing to the people that need to know and it's working out ok.

nerdponx 5y ago
This sounds like an unusual arrangement. Who actually determines your pay?
- 988747 5y ago
  It is often called "matrix structure", in which you have two bosses: HR boss that knows your salary, and day-to-day project boss that does not.
ldoughty 5y ago
I find that interesting, and also concerning.. but I suppose it depends on the office culture. I tried to ignore my peers and direct reports salaries when I first moved into management... I lost an employee after 2 years when another place offered him a 80% raise. At that point, I realized I couldn't count on a 3rd party to properly evaluate an employee's worth, and I started to take an active role in ensuring people are paid as close to market as we could afford (though, as a non-profit, we struggle to compete for technical talent)
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  > I lost an employee after 2 years when another place offered him a 80% raise. First, I'd say it's quite normal in non-profits. Second, I believe that in a structure when you don't know the salary of your reports, there is always someone they can discuss it with if they feel they deserve more - and that person would definitely consult your opinion then.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  Well, I make a lot. I'm sure my boss is aware of that. I don't know a single person that is paid this much in Toronto and doesn't have to manage others. Not even close. So maybe that's why he doesn't need to know.

gwbas1c 5y ago

> lead of my team A lead isn't a manager or boos. That being said, a lead is frequently more valuable than the followers.

bluGill 5y ago

Traditional companies paid manager more, but supply and demand of engineers vs managers means that more and more middle management is making less than engineers.

nerdponx 5y ago

I think this makes a lot of sense. Management is not "better", it is simply "different". And in terms of actual value delivered to the business, I doubt that a low/mid-level manager delivers significantly more than an experienced and productive individual contributor. Organizations need both good managers and good individual contributors. Clearly managers of technical contributors need enough technical experience to make sound management decisions. But that doesn't seem like a good reason to constantly promote people upwards, nor does it seem like a reason to always pay managers more than ICs by default. However I think in some cases managers end up subject to extra risk if a project goes bad, so they are probably entitled to some increased "hazard pay" for that. (The risk/responsibility structure might be inverted at some toxic dysfunctional organizations, but that's beside the point.)

gloryjulio 5y ago
All of your points are valid. But here is the catch which many ICs might not realize. There are far more management positions than pure ICs. It's the unfortunate that you be disadvantaged if you stick to strict ICs path. The competition is also fierce. The talented ICs are so far above the rest (the 10x/100x engineers). It's a simple supply and demand problem. The company needs a lot more of above average managers/hybrids. It's not good for average ICs to stuck to their little world if they want better promotions.
- hellisothers 5y ago
  Just to clarify when you say IC you mean literally an IC as opposed to the leadership path in an IC vertical? Many companies expect hither level ICs to be leaders in one way or another, you don’t need to go down the management path.
  - gloryjulio 5y ago
    I mean the essence of the problem comes down to people management. If you mean the pure technical role, then yes that's what I am referring to which has far less positions. And usually your competition would be the elites. Because many ICs try to avoid people management. I am not talking about whether there is a such a path for ICs. I am talking about the numbers problem. The unfortunate truth is that there are far more positions involves people management. Engineering manager is good example because ICs can wield their technical skills. But still, this roles still requires you to do substantial people management.

blitzar 5y ago

Telling or managing a player to kick the ball into the back of the net is a lot easier than actually kicking it in the back of the net. Telling or managing a team of 20 people to put products on shelves is a lot harder than putting products on shelves.

baobabKoodaa 5y ago
I like the analogy, but I don't fully agree with it. If the "product on shelf" is a basic CRUD app, then sure, managing a team of 20 people might be harder than doing the individual tasks related to putting the product on shelf, but oftentimes there are challenging technical aspects related to the product. In some cases those technical challenges might be harder than management of the team.
- aaronblohowiak 5y ago
  Depends on how well isolated the tricksy bits are
- felipellrocha 5y ago
  have you ever been a manager?
- blitzar 5y ago
  I was thinking stacking shelves in a supermarket as an example of "putting products on a shelf"; but yes, as the complexity, skills required, technical knowledge or genetic 1 in a million requirement goes up for the managed worker there is a point where the degree of difficulty swaps over.
Avshalom 5y ago
>>Telling or managing a team of 20 people to put products on shelves is a lot harder than putting products on shelves. no it isn't
- blitzar 5y ago
  You think managing minimum wage shelve stackers in a supermarket is easier than actually stacking the sheles in a supermarket?

angarg12 5y ago

Is not about bosses and reports, it's about performance. I wasn't anyone's manager. My role as team lead was to organise, coordinate and supervise my colleague's tasks, on top of my IC contributions. For another example, a guy joined a different team and was killing it, but was getting paid less than another college who was in the company 8 years and was hardly pulling his own weight.

daniel-cussen 5y ago

In Wall Street it's common for CEOs to make say 30 million dollars, not more, supervising sick but like SICK traders that haul in arbitrary amounts. Also whalers in California, there were groups of guys like "we're a great team, we're men, we know how to swim, let's hunt Grey Whales" and hired a captain. On a ship it is imperative to do whatever the captain says, but that doesn't mean the hierarchy exists on shore with the money. There were also captains who hired sailors, more often.