20 ms·

From macOS to FreeBSD

215 points by susam 5y ago

Apocryphon 5y ago
Why don’t these conversations ever mention GhostBSD? Is there really no Mint or elementary OS equivalent to BSD?
nier 5y ago
> I would not only save 2/3 of the price For somebody familiar with Apple hardware that seems like a typo. Refurbished at one-third the price? Just checked and that’s actually the case.
- sofixa 5y ago
  Yep, non-Apple hardware has really low resell value, for better ( it's cheaper as a buyer) and worse ( if you're a seller intending to refresh often, you'll "lose" a lot).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pshirshov 5y ago
No 802.11ac, no declarative configurations (like in Nixos). What's the point?
- prmoustache 5y ago
  Not everybody got 802.11ac at home already and most people are fine with 802.11n speed for their personnal usage. I would say this is irrelevant for a large fraction of the population. Also not everybody need declarative configuration, especially when talking about a monodevice scope.
  - Asmod4n 5y ago
    802.11ac came out 2013.
    - prmoustache 5y ago
      And a lot of people only get a new access point when they either receive a new router from their providers or change providers. This is not uncommon to have the same wireless access point for a decade or so and people are generally fine with it. Also most people don't even know there are different revisions of the wifi standard and if you say 802.11 they will just look at you with clueless eyes. I am not saying it is ok for any OS to not support it but it doesn't necessarily affect everyone's life. Some work is done on that front though: https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/80211ac https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/80211ac
      - dangerface 5y ago
        Sure most people don't upgrade their router very often but those people probably aren't the ones interested in using freebsd as their desktop, I doubt they have even heard of freebsd or would care to hear about it. The type of person that will install freebsd on a laptop and then setup all the configuration is probably very techy and would want the best tech, os, wifi.
      - Asmod4n 5y ago
        Hm, as far as I can tell FreeBSD has drivers for ac cards, but they only support WiFi 4 at the protocol level?
  - Findecanor 5y ago
    It's not just about speed. I live in an apartment block where so many people have got WiFi networks and Bluetooth devices that the 2.4GHz band has become heavily congested. These days, I need 802.11ac on the 5GHz band just to get a connection on my tablet in the bedroom to the router in the hallway ...
    - salamandersauce 5y ago
      There is 5GHz N. Not as common in devices or routers though.
      - trasz 5y ago
        I'm not sure I've ever seen a 80211n device that _didn't_ support 5GHz.
        salamandersauce 5y ago
        A lot of low end consumer devices don't. For example the PS Vita supports N but not 5GHz, nor do most kindles until the latest Paperwhite. It was also super common for cheap $400 laptops in 2011 to have N but not 5Ghz support.
        Klonoar 5y ago
        I believe Nintendo didn’t support it until the Switch, surprisingly - the WiiU was 2.4 only.
        salamandersauce 5y ago
        Not for the internet but Wii U uses 5GHz for streaming to the gamepad.
        Klonoar 5y ago
        Guess that explains the poor range issue people cited back in its heydey.
- joshenders 5y ago
  To desperately cling to the past out of fear of the future.
  - bigp3t3 5y ago
    While I'm sure we all understand your sentiment, I think you're missing the point. This isn't the future we /users/ want. It's the future that corporations, silly commities and greed-/arrogance-/bling-motivated decision makers are dictating to the rest of the world. What we're witnessing in these Thinkpad, right-to-repair, yEaR oF tEh nix dEsKtop conversations, is people taking back control of the devices we own. At the cost of compromises the same decision makers are not willing to allow you to make. It's easy to look at these case studys as outliers or edge cases as someone who probably lives in the first world, adding to the pile of e-waste by perpetuating and encouraging the behaviour supporting companies like Apple. What I see as an IT engineer at mid-size MSP is the SMB/SME market and their staff struggle with adapting to the ever-changing technologies. I feel their pain, because I'm the one that has to make old work with new. Privateers and coders get to choose their environment for the most part. Businesses have baggage, standard operating procedures and a mix of requirements. And then you get people like Apple thinking we can all live wirelessly or with exorbitantly priced adapters and less choice as consumers of their products... it's arrogant and user-hostile.
  - anthk 5y ago
    One day you'll understand that everything it's cyclic. Flat interfaces will be toshed out for semi 3D interfaces such as the ones from Aqua/Haiku/Windows 9x and so on. Most of the Linux solutions are overengineered, btw. They had to release Pipewire for everything as OpenBSD did with sndio. And yet ALSA adds a layer of cruft and complications. Sndio+OSS just works. So, I think keeping yourself on a simple design path makes the future much easier. For example, MTP on phones suck, up to the point that using SFTP with some server from FDROID makes the data sharing back and forth much, much better. Ditto with rclone vs 200 providers with their own GUI for everything. Or age and/or signify vs OpenSSL or GPG2 being used to encrypt files where those have options for everything encrypting/signing related.
    - 5y ago
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  I think the point is that the big two personal computer operating systems have become so user hostile that alternatives are looking good. FreeBSD wouldn't be my choice either but for a mac refugee it makes sense.
  - mekster 5y ago
    What do you mean by hostile?
    - eloisius 5y ago
      Subverting user’s intentions by doing things like resetting the default browser on every update, or forcing you into their App Store ecosystem by making it like pulling teeth to download an app from the internet and run it.
      - mekster 5y ago
        Doesn't sound critical at all.
  - pshirshov 5y ago
    How is Linux hostile?
    - smackeyacky 5y ago
      Windows and OSX, not linux. All the stupid stuff they force down your neck: must be a registered user in their system rather than just a local user. The app stores. The deprecation of perfectly good hardware. Forced updates on their schedule. Monitoring of user actions turned on by default. Changing preferences without asking. All of it is getting in the way of you actually using your own device on your own terms.
- curt15 5y ago
  How about ZFS?
  - mekster 5y ago
    It's easy to use zfs on Ubuntu.
    - necovek 5y ago
      It also integrates great with LXD (a nicer way to use containers).
- hutrdvnj 5y ago
  Can someone explain to me why FreeBSD doesn't support 802.11ac?
  - ggm 5y ago
    Because blobs,almost certainly. Binary blobs which expect certain syscalls which Linux does and writing the FreeBSD equivalents is time consuming and expert knowledge driven. A guess, is all.
  - trasz 5y ago
    No particular reason, really; it's being worked on: https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2021-07-2021-09/#_intel_wireless_driver_support https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2021-07-2021-09/#_inte...
- anthk 5y ago
  >no declarative configurations (like in Nixos) OpenBSD autoinstall and two scripts for desktop packages and daemons. The whole user config is a TGZ. Done, and much faster than setting up Nix OS env.
  - pshirshov 5y ago
    What about maintenance?
    - anthk 5y ago
      Almost nil. Upgrades: download bsd.rd from the new release, place it under /, reboot, boot bsd.rd, press U for (U)pgrade, wait, reboot, pkg_add -U && pkg_delete -a (to crack down orphans). Done.
hericium 5y ago
Few things missing for me after a similar switch are FreeBSD's lack of support for 80211ac and 80211ax, trackpad (I ditched Apple's faulty "Pro" hardware but their trackpads are awesome) and fingerprint scanner support for my ThinkPad (T14s AMD Gen1). What I absolutely do not miss are Apple's constant crappy UI/UX changes and progressing configurability deprivation delivered under the umbrella of secretive security updates. With Apple I had to choose between security and stable UX. No iPhone or Mac felt "mine" in recent years. I still use iPhone (lesser evil thing) but replaced MBP with ThinkPad (FreeBSD always had good support for ThinkPads) and am not looking back. I don't miss eye-candy software, designer hardware and I cherish configurability and that my computer is "mine" again and feels like a tool not a toy. Due to macOS' BSD roots, large part of my userland remained almost unchanged.
- christophilus 5y ago
  What DE / WM are you running? And why FreeBSD instead of Linux?
  - Datagenerator 5y ago
    POLA, invested time stays valuable. The system is one, not many seperate and daily changing parts. Not having to learn dozens of network management and DNS resolvers gives you back your valuable time to focus on things you really want to do. On the various Linux distributions you must discover how it's glued together at this point in time.
    - christophilus 5y ago
      Linux is fragmented, to be sure, but if you go with stock Fedora or Ubuntu, everything just works (mostly). I never had to put any thought into network management or DNS, except to change my DNS from my ISP to Cloudflare.
      - bitcharmer 5y ago
        Ubuntu has been my daily driver for well over a decade now. As a developer I always wanted to give Fedora a try. Every two years or so I give it a chance and... Not even once did I succed in installing it. Just Google "fedora won't install" and you'll see what I mean. From my perspective fedora is a meme distro. Yes, I'm a power user. I just don't want to spend a whole day on something that's expected to work out of the box.
UncleSlacky 5y ago
helloSystem could give you the best of both worlds: https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JaggerJo 5y ago
  Just from looking at the first screenshot (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/helloSystem/hello/master/screenshots/20211219-desktop-0.7.png https://raw.githubusercontent.com/helloSystem/hello/master/s...) The items in the global menu are aligned incorrectly. (notice how the baseline of the menu item title does not match the baseline of the shortcut)
  - UncleSlacky 5y ago
    It's still in beta (0.7 at the moment) so don't expect miracles.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>During the years, Apple started turning away from this beautiful UI into a world of plain, soulless and minimalistic UI. A couple of years ago I ran every version of OS/X from 10.1 up the current release, each for a couple of weeks. One of the things that surprised me was how consistent it has been when I compare it to the alternatives. The only UI change that has really bothered me is hiding the proxy icon.
- mastercheif 5y ago
  Proxy icons have been brought back as an “accessibility” option in macOS 12 Monterey jsyk: https://twitter.com/getaaron/status/1415432451200008195 https://twitter.com/getaaron/status/1415432451200008195
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    Thanks for this! I had no idea.
xianwen 5y ago
It seems some FreeBSD developers use macOS themselves, instead of FreeBSD. I found this quite peculiar.
- nallerooth 5y ago
  Would you board an airliner where you wrote the navigational software? /just kidding I guess there are devs who spend quite a lot of time in macOS in order to work on things like https://airyx.org/ https://airyx.org/.
- mekster 5y ago
  People like to spend less time fighting the OS? That's the norm, not peculiar.
  - 1500100900 5y ago
    "Fighting the OS" you develop may lead to you fixing the errors and deficiencies of the system that annoy you and possibly annoy other people too.
- drewg123 5y ago
  I'm a FreeBSD developer and run FreeBSD on my desktop, and MacOS on my laptop. I have not had a great experience with any *nix other than MacOS on a laptop. My main objection to MacOS & why I don't run it on my desktop is that I can't configure window management exactly how I want it, like I can with KDE or LXDE. Most of what I can't do centers around muscle memory for window management tricks involving mouse buttons and modifier keys. This goes away on a laptop with a trackpad, since the muscle memory is different with a trackpad than with a mouse.
  - waz0wski 5y ago
    I used FreeBSD on desktop for a number of years and switched over to OSX and I've been through some of the window management pain. I generally do as much as I can with keyboard hotkeys but I do have a trackpad connected to my desktop now as well. As far as window management, I use contexts for my switcher, rectangle for hotkey-based window management, and stay for automated per-app & per-display window management https://contexts.co https://contexts.co https://rectangleapp.com https://rectangleapp.com https://cordlessdog.com/stay https://cordlessdog.com/stay There's also alternate window managers for OSX such as Yabai or Amethyst https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst
neric 5y ago
I was super excited to receive my new M1 MacBook pro. After a 2 months wait, I get to work trying to setup my development workflow that consist of putting fullscreen windows on different desktops and repeatedly switching between those workspaces. Well turns out you cannot deactivate transitions between workspaces and there is a small delay before the new workspace is interactive. There is no possible way I can work like that. Went back to my ArchLinux + i3 on my Gigabyte Aero 15, happy to know that I'm not missing out much.
- __float 5y ago
  I still find my M1 to be a way better experience: the M1 is quick, the fans virtually never come on, and battery life is a total game changer. I also never use the "Spaces" feature; why not just use 'maximized' windows? I use https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/ to easily resize windows with keyboard shortcuts, which works well. I get trying something new and not really liking it, but if you're going to comment, you should make an attempt to actually try it...
  - salamandersauce 5y ago
    Well you lose full screen benefits of going full screen like no menu bar, no window title bar, the dock hides even if you normally like it not-hidden. Yeah you can use rectangle or BTT or one of the other dozens of the third party apps to do window snapping but to me at least they never feel quite as nice as the native options in Windows, KDE, Gnome, etc. Not sure why.
    - kitsunesoba 5y ago
      Menubar can be configured to auto-hide, though it’s kinda moot on the built in screen of M1 Pro/Max machines since those have a strip of added pixels on the top for the menubar to live in. Won’t hide the titlebar but that’s such a small part of the screen it’s never bothered me…. But then again I make use of titlebars frequently, the hotkey-dragging of tiling WMs drive me crazy.
  - ravenstine 5y ago
itsphilos 5y ago
> Note: This blog post has been rewritten at least 3 times. I started with describing how I configured the system, then I went to bragging about how I love bspwm, how I set up all my jails, etc. I might still write about it at some point, but not this time. Every time I started writing the post, I realised that I was missing a point. I can say now that I know what I really wanted to say: that I love FreeBSD and I find joy in using it. I really appreciate the honesty and I think it was a good choice to focus on fleshing out the message. Also: Quite the un-evangelistic stance on this rather controversy-inducing topic!
dangerface 5y ago
I love freebsd use it every where I can but its not very good in a desktop / laptop environment missing a lot of drivers for things like wifi and bluetooth on most laptops. The freebsd ports tree is what makes it so amazing but the ports for desktop applications are not as well maintained as the server stuff. Since all those programs work on linux and fedora provides a better desktop experience by default I just go with that.
tapoxi 5y ago
Every time I read an article like this on HN, I can't help but wonder, is anyone actually using a Linux/FreeBSD machine at their workplace? It seems these posts are all about personal machines. I'd love to use Linux professionally, but convincing IT to let me run something outside of their management has always been impossible. Edit: Geez HN, this is a legitimate question and it's currently at -2 karma. What's up with this place lately?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- davewood 5y ago
  Using Debian at work and on my personal laptop for at least 10 years now. Not missing anything.
- nablaone 5y ago
  I'm using on personal computer since '96. Professionally since 2000. I had a "Windows only break" for few months.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  I do. "I am IT", so it helps, but we're basically OK with anyone "technical" (read devs & co) who wants to use anything else than windows. But that means they're on their own if random issues crop up.
- stevekemp 5y ago
  I've been running Linux for the past 20ish years, professionally. In my previous company I was the only Linux-user, out of 50+ staff. In my current company there are approximately 100 employees and I'm one of two users. I have had to jump through a couple of hoops now and again, installing an Antivirus scanner on my Debian laptop, and similar things. (Jumpcloud agent at this company too). But broadly speaking people have said "If you can take care of it, and if you have full-disk encryption then that's fine". I've always mentioned it in interviews "I will expect to run Linux" and some people have grumbled, but nobody has said "no". For what it's worth I'm a "devops person", rather than a developer.
- 5y ago
jgillich 5y ago
I have tried FreeBSD and OpenBSD on the desktop a couple years back, but for a while now I've felt that they're becoming irrelevant. * No Bluetooth support on OpenBSD at all, and it never worked on FreeBSD for me. Linux used to have issues with some devices, but it has gotten much, much better over the recent years (or devices have gotten better). * Wifi on Linux mostly works out of the box nowadays (with the exception of some Broadcom chips, but even they are getting better). Completely different story on the BSDs, while they have decent support for some vendors like Intel, they take quite a while to support new hardware. * Gaming is not really a thing on BSD. * Container tech like Kubernetes and Flatpak does not work on the BSDs. While Linux has taken a long time to catch up to Windows (and still isn't there yet in some areas), I feel like the BSDs lack the manpower or interest to even keep pace with the world around them. Not only are things not getting better, they are getting worse.
- niahmiah 5y ago
  Came to say very similar things. Thanks for saving me this time.
- radikalerludwig 5y ago
  > * Gaming is not really a thing on BSD Sony has a different story to tell
  - steerablesafe 5y ago
    It doesn't help you when you want to run BSD on your laptop or desktop.
  - gilrain 5y ago
    This post is opaquely referring to the fact that the Playstation 4 os is based on FreeBSD. Obviously, this is interesting but irrelevant.
    - gh02t 5y ago
      Sony also doesn't contribute much of that code back to FreeBSD.
hunter-gatherer 5y ago
I had a similar experience. I have used linux since I was in highschool until 2009 when I got a macbook. I initially loved it for the same reasons as the author but grew more frustrated and was less enthused every year. In 2013 the computer finally crashed during an update, and i was never able to get it to properly work. At the time I installed linux on a 2005 era PC and had no issues and this carried me the rest of the way through college. I've been back on linux since. My employer sent me a dell, mac, and a forensics workstation. I use windows, macos, and linux daily. Aside from the trackpad and display, I'm actually the least impressed with the macbook. Maybe if I was running windows 11 things would be different. I really don't see the magic that everyobe else sees in Apple products.
alberth 5y ago
Off topic: has anyone tried nix on FreeBSD? How is it?
midrus 5y ago
You're wasting your time.
Claude_Shannon 5y ago
I'm afraid I didn't like that article. I felt like it had said nothing concrete. :| I saw that disclaimer, but still.
- chewmieser 5y ago
  Agreed! It talked about choosing hardware and I figured it would go into a deep dive of the OS install, issues they encountered on the way, pros and cons of each... But it just basically ends after the hardware section. Feels like it's missing ~50% of what you'd expect from an article like this... I'm not really sure what the point was of it...
SamuelAdams 5y ago
> The hardware itself also got worse. Removal of all but 2 USB-C ports from MacBook Pro was a last nail to the coffin for me. Small correction, the latest MacBook Pro has 4 USB-c ports and an HDMI port That said, is this really a big deal to people? Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop? I use a docking station with a single USB-C cable to connect my Mac. Everything else connects to the dock. It’s simple, it works, I’ve had this setup for six months with zero issues. Linux computers also work the same way. When I am working mobile, in a coffee shop or similar, I never use the ports. An external mouse would work with Bluetooth, and I’ve never needed to use external devices while on the go. I don’t understand why people need a cocktail of barely used ports at all times. Is there a common workflow that I’m not aware of?
- normie3000 5y ago
  > Do you really still use… USB-A ports directly on your laptop? Yes.
  - SamuelAdams 5y ago
    Ok. Is there any reason you can’t spend 10-20 dollars on USB-C cables to replace your USB-A cables?
    - vaylian 5y ago
      1. Some devices don't have a removable USB-A cable 2. Why throw away something that is perfectly working and useful?
      - sbuk 5y ago
        You dont have to, spend $6.99 on a pack of 4 usb-a to c adapters instead.
    - vanilla_nut 5y ago
      Considering the number of USB-A devices I still own, it would be considerably more than “20-30 dollars”. More like $200, and those are all devices, chargers, and travel/backup chargers I rely on regularly. It’s not so simple to migrate. Consider: - Some devices have a proprietary end and a USB-A end, and there’s no USB-C equivalent (my Pebble chargers; my microphone; my webcam). I have tried dongles with these before and left disappointed every time - some devices have a USB-A cord attached permanently, such as my desk lamp. Again, dongles are unreliable here and thus a downgrade. - For portable devices like my standalone GPS for bike touring, my lights for my bicycle, my phone, my watch, and anything else small I might want to charge when travelling by car… I still need USB-A for the car itself. Easier to pack one cable for the whole trip instead of a USB-C cord for hotels and a USB-A cord for the car. - My personal laptop still has USB-A ports, but no USB-C ports. As far as I can tell there are no non-sketchy adapters that go from a male USB-C cable to a female USB-A port. Apple makes a very expensive Thunderbolt2<->Thunderbolt3 adapter that I use at my desk when I want to use my personal laptop there, but that adapter is $50 or so. Already over your budget. - I don’t have any USB-C wall warts at all. The last phone I bought was the 2016 iPhone SE. I have a plethora of USB-A wall warts from family and friends who didn’t need them. They work well. Why are some people so hellbent on removing functionality that other people use every day and can’t replace without significant expense and inconvenience? It’s just like the damn headphone jack on iPhones: I understand that a lot of people are fine with Bluetooth only, but I am not. It’s frustrating to lose the option.
chj 5y ago
On a similar note, I turned away from MBP and use Ubuntu on T570. I do miss the aluminum build, but the modern linux desktop has improved so much in the last decade, that I don't miss the macos UI one bit. It feels good that the OS is not imposing itself between me and the hardware. For instance, you can't write x86 assembler 32bit in the intel mac machines, why? because apple decided for you. I can't imagine going back to macos. To me the golden days is Mac OS X Lion, since then macos experience has been on a down hill path, trying to sell you their services, and I just tolerated until no longer can.
jsz0 5y ago
As a Mac user since 2004 I recently found myself seriously considering other options. Mainly due to the huge regression in UI/UX over the last 2-3 years. Most first party apps have become less functional and harder to use. I'm struggling to use these apps full of tiny gray similar looking icons that don't exactly work in similar ways. Is it my imagination or does drag and drop simply not work reliably on macOS anymore? Finder in column view is being the one I fight with constantly.
smm11 5y ago
The older I get, the more I'm into plug-and-play. For everything.
5etho 5y ago
do you guys think it would work: linux shop similar to apple stop when staff setup linux, and fix it for you while you sipping coffee?
Melatonic 5y ago
I like FreeBSD quite a bit for some things but a desktop OS would likely not be one of them
bradwood 5y ago
Big jump from MacOS to bspwm... I can dig it, having moved to i3 on Arch from MacOS, but surely the WM is much more of the experience change, for day-to-day use, than the innards of the OS, filesystem, and so on.

215 points by susam 5y ago

Why don’t these conversations ever mention GhostBSD? Is there really no Mint or elementary OS equivalent to BSD?

nier 5y ago

> I would not only save 2/3 of the price For somebody familiar with Apple hardware that seems like a typo. Refurbished at one-third the price? Just checked and that’s actually the case.

sofixa 5y ago
Yep, non-Apple hardware has really low resell value, for better ( it's cheaper as a buyer) and worse ( if you're a seller intending to refresh often, you'll "lose" a lot).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pshirshov 5y ago

No 802.11ac, no declarative configurations (like in Nixos). What's the point?

prmoustache 5y ago
Not everybody got 802.11ac at home already and most people are fine with 802.11n speed for their personnal usage. I would say this is irrelevant for a large fraction of the population. Also not everybody need declarative configuration, especially when talking about a monodevice scope.
- Asmod4n 5y ago
  802.11ac came out 2013.
  - prmoustache 5y ago
    And a lot of people only get a new access point when they either receive a new router from their providers or change providers. This is not uncommon to have the same wireless access point for a decade or so and people are generally fine with it. Also most people don't even know there are different revisions of the wifi standard and if you say 802.11 they will just look at you with clueless eyes. I am not saying it is ok for any OS to not support it but it doesn't necessarily affect everyone's life. Some work is done on that front though: https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/80211ac https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/80211ac
    - dangerface 5y ago
      Sure most people don't upgrade their router very often but those people probably aren't the ones interested in using freebsd as their desktop, I doubt they have even heard of freebsd or would care to hear about it. The type of person that will install freebsd on a laptop and then setup all the configuration is probably very techy and would want the best tech, os, wifi.
    - Asmod4n 5y ago
      Hm, as far as I can tell FreeBSD has drivers for ac cards, but they only support WiFi 4 at the protocol level?
- Findecanor 5y ago
  It's not just about speed. I live in an apartment block where so many people have got WiFi networks and Bluetooth devices that the 2.4GHz band has become heavily congested. These days, I need 802.11ac on the 5GHz band just to get a connection on my tablet in the bedroom to the router in the hallway ...
  - salamandersauce 5y ago
    There is 5GHz N. Not as common in devices or routers though.
    - trasz 5y ago
      I'm not sure I've ever seen a 80211n device that _didn't_ support 5GHz.
      - salamandersauce 5y ago
        A lot of low end consumer devices don't. For example the PS Vita supports N but not 5GHz, nor do most kindles until the latest Paperwhite. It was also super common for cheap $400 laptops in 2011 to have N but not 5Ghz support.
        Klonoar 5y ago
        I believe Nintendo didn’t support it until the Switch, surprisingly - the WiiU was 2.4 only.
        salamandersauce 5y ago
        Not for the internet but Wii U uses 5GHz for streaming to the gamepad.
        Klonoar 5y ago
        Guess that explains the poor range issue people cited back in its heydey.
joshenders 5y ago
To desperately cling to the past out of fear of the future.
- bigp3t3 5y ago
  While I'm sure we all understand your sentiment, I think you're missing the point. This isn't the future we /users/ want. It's the future that corporations, silly commities and greed-/arrogance-/bling-motivated decision makers are dictating to the rest of the world. What we're witnessing in these Thinkpad, right-to-repair, yEaR oF tEh nix dEsKtop conversations, is people taking back control of the devices we own. At the cost of compromises the same decision makers are not willing to allow you to make. It's easy to look at these case studys as outliers or edge cases as someone who probably lives in the first world, adding to the pile of e-waste by perpetuating and encouraging the behaviour supporting companies like Apple. What I see as an IT engineer at mid-size MSP is the SMB/SME market and their staff struggle with adapting to the ever-changing technologies. I feel their pain, because I'm the one that has to make old work with new. Privateers and coders get to choose their environment for the most part. Businesses have baggage, standard operating procedures and a mix of requirements. And then you get people like Apple thinking we can all live wirelessly or with exorbitantly priced adapters and less choice as consumers of their products... it's arrogant and user-hostile.
- anthk 5y ago
  One day you'll understand that everything it's cyclic. Flat interfaces will be toshed out for semi 3D interfaces such as the ones from Aqua/Haiku/Windows 9x and so on. Most of the Linux solutions are overengineered, btw. They had to release Pipewire for everything as OpenBSD did with sndio. And yet ALSA adds a layer of cruft and complications. Sndio+OSS just works. So, I think keeping yourself on a simple design path makes the future much easier. For example, MTP on phones suck, up to the point that using SFTP with some server from FDROID makes the data sharing back and forth much, much better. Ditto with rclone vs 200 providers with their own GUI for everything. Or age and/or signify vs OpenSSL or GPG2 being used to encrypt files where those have options for everything encrypting/signing related.
  - 5y ago
smackeyacky 5y ago
I think the point is that the big two personal computer operating systems have become so user hostile that alternatives are looking good. FreeBSD wouldn't be my choice either but for a mac refugee it makes sense.
- mekster 5y ago
  What do you mean by hostile?
  - eloisius 5y ago
    Subverting user’s intentions by doing things like resetting the default browser on every update, or forcing you into their App Store ecosystem by making it like pulling teeth to download an app from the internet and run it.
    - mekster 5y ago
      Doesn't sound critical at all.
- pshirshov 5y ago
  How is Linux hostile?
  - smackeyacky 5y ago
    Windows and OSX, not linux. All the stupid stuff they force down your neck: must be a registered user in their system rather than just a local user. The app stores. The deprecation of perfectly good hardware. Forced updates on their schedule. Monitoring of user actions turned on by default. Changing preferences without asking. All of it is getting in the way of you actually using your own device on your own terms.
curt15 5y ago
How about ZFS?
- mekster 5y ago
  It's easy to use zfs on Ubuntu.
  - necovek 5y ago
    It also integrates great with LXD (a nicer way to use containers).
hutrdvnj 5y ago
Can someone explain to me why FreeBSD doesn't support 802.11ac?
- ggm 5y ago
  Because blobs,almost certainly. Binary blobs which expect certain syscalls which Linux does and writing the FreeBSD equivalents is time consuming and expert knowledge driven. A guess, is all.
- trasz 5y ago
  No particular reason, really; it's being worked on: https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2021-07-2021-09/#_intel_wireless_driver_support https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2021-07-2021-09/#_inte...
anthk 5y ago
>no declarative configurations (like in Nixos) OpenBSD autoinstall and two scripts for desktop packages and daemons. The whole user config is a TGZ. Done, and much faster than setting up Nix OS env.
- pshirshov 5y ago
  What about maintenance?
  - anthk 5y ago
    Almost nil. Upgrades: download bsd.rd from the new release, place it under /, reboot, boot bsd.rd, press U for (U)pgrade, wait, reboot, pkg_add -U && pkg_delete -a (to crack down orphans). Done.

hericium 5y ago

Few things missing for me after a similar switch are FreeBSD's lack of support for 80211ac and 80211ax, trackpad (I ditched Apple's faulty "Pro" hardware but their trackpads are awesome) and fingerprint scanner support for my ThinkPad (T14s AMD Gen1). What I absolutely do not miss are Apple's constant crappy UI/UX changes and progressing configurability deprivation delivered under the umbrella of secretive security updates. With Apple I had to choose between security and stable UX. No iPhone or Mac felt "mine" in recent years. I still use iPhone (lesser evil thing) but replaced MBP with ThinkPad (FreeBSD always had good support for ThinkPads) and am not looking back. I don't miss eye-candy software, designer hardware and I cherish configurability and that my computer is "mine" again and feels like a tool not a toy. Due to macOS' BSD roots, large part of my userland remained almost unchanged.

christophilus 5y ago
What DE / WM are you running? And why FreeBSD instead of Linux?
- Datagenerator 5y ago
  POLA, invested time stays valuable. The system is one, not many seperate and daily changing parts. Not having to learn dozens of network management and DNS resolvers gives you back your valuable time to focus on things you really want to do. On the various Linux distributions you must discover how it's glued together at this point in time.
  - christophilus 5y ago
    Linux is fragmented, to be sure, but if you go with stock Fedora or Ubuntu, everything just works (mostly). I never had to put any thought into network management or DNS, except to change my DNS from my ISP to Cloudflare.
    - bitcharmer 5y ago
      Ubuntu has been my daily driver for well over a decade now. As a developer I always wanted to give Fedora a try. Every two years or so I give it a chance and... Not even once did I succed in installing it. Just Google "fedora won't install" and you'll see what I mean. From my perspective fedora is a meme distro. Yes, I'm a power user. I just don't want to spend a whole day on something that's expected to work out of the box.

UncleSlacky 5y ago

helloSystem could give you the best of both worlds: https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/

deleted 5y ago
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JaggerJo 5y ago
Just from looking at the first screenshot (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/helloSystem/hello/master/screenshots/20211219-desktop-0.7.png https://raw.githubusercontent.com/helloSystem/hello/master/s...) The items in the global menu are aligned incorrectly. (notice how the baseline of the menu item title does not match the baseline of the shortcut)
- UncleSlacky 5y ago
  It's still in beta (0.7 at the moment) so don't expect miracles.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

>During the years, Apple started turning away from this beautiful UI into a world of plain, soulless and minimalistic UI. A couple of years ago I ran every version of OS/X from 10.1 up the current release, each for a couple of weeks. One of the things that surprised me was how consistent it has been when I compare it to the alternatives. The only UI change that has really bothered me is hiding the proxy icon.

mastercheif 5y ago
Proxy icons have been brought back as an “accessibility” option in macOS 12 Monterey jsyk: https://twitter.com/getaaron/status/1415432451200008195 https://twitter.com/getaaron/status/1415432451200008195
- jtbayly 5y ago
  Thanks for this! I had no idea.

xianwen 5y ago

It seems some FreeBSD developers use macOS themselves, instead of FreeBSD. I found this quite peculiar.

nallerooth 5y ago
Would you board an airliner where you wrote the navigational software? /just kidding I guess there are devs who spend quite a lot of time in macOS in order to work on things like https://airyx.org/ https://airyx.org/.
mekster 5y ago
People like to spend less time fighting the OS? That's the norm, not peculiar.
- 1500100900 5y ago
  "Fighting the OS" you develop may lead to you fixing the errors and deficiencies of the system that annoy you and possibly annoy other people too.
drewg123 5y ago
I'm a FreeBSD developer and run FreeBSD on my desktop, and MacOS on my laptop. I have not had a great experience with any *nix other than MacOS on a laptop. My main objection to MacOS & why I don't run it on my desktop is that I can't configure window management exactly how I want it, like I can with KDE or LXDE. Most of what I can't do centers around muscle memory for window management tricks involving mouse buttons and modifier keys. This goes away on a laptop with a trackpad, since the muscle memory is different with a trackpad than with a mouse.
- waz0wski 5y ago
  I used FreeBSD on desktop for a number of years and switched over to OSX and I've been through some of the window management pain. I generally do as much as I can with keyboard hotkeys but I do have a trackpad connected to my desktop now as well. As far as window management, I use contexts for my switcher, rectangle for hotkey-based window management, and stay for automated per-app & per-display window management https://contexts.co https://contexts.co https://rectangleapp.com https://rectangleapp.com https://cordlessdog.com/stay https://cordlessdog.com/stay There's also alternate window managers for OSX such as Yabai or Amethyst https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst

neric 5y ago

I was super excited to receive my new M1 MacBook pro. After a 2 months wait, I get to work trying to setup my development workflow that consist of putting fullscreen windows on different desktops and repeatedly switching between those workspaces. Well turns out you cannot deactivate transitions between workspaces and there is a small delay before the new workspace is interactive. There is no possible way I can work like that. Went back to my ArchLinux + i3 on my Gigabyte Aero 15, happy to know that I'm not missing out much.

__float 5y ago
I still find my M1 to be a way better experience: the M1 is quick, the fans virtually never come on, and battery life is a total game changer. I also never use the "Spaces" feature; why not just use 'maximized' windows? I use https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/ to easily resize windows with keyboard shortcuts, which works well. I get trying something new and not really liking it, but if you're going to comment, you should make an attempt to actually try it...
- salamandersauce 5y ago
  Well you lose full screen benefits of going full screen like no menu bar, no window title bar, the dock hides even if you normally like it not-hidden. Yeah you can use rectangle or BTT or one of the other dozens of the third party apps to do window snapping but to me at least they never feel quite as nice as the native options in Windows, KDE, Gnome, etc. Not sure why.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    Menubar can be configured to auto-hide, though it’s kinda moot on the built in screen of M1 Pro/Max machines since those have a strip of added pixels on the top for the menubar to live in. Won’t hide the titlebar but that’s such a small part of the screen it’s never bothered me…. But then again I make use of titlebars frequently, the hotkey-dragging of tiling WMs drive me crazy.
- ravenstine 5y ago

itsphilos 5y ago

> Note: This blog post has been rewritten at least 3 times. I started with describing how I configured the system, then I went to bragging about how I love bspwm, how I set up all my jails, etc. I might still write about it at some point, but not this time. Every time I started writing the post, I realised that I was missing a point. I can say now that I know what I really wanted to say: that I love FreeBSD and I find joy in using it. I really appreciate the honesty and I think it was a good choice to focus on fleshing out the message. Also: Quite the un-evangelistic stance on this rather controversy-inducing topic!

dangerface 5y ago

I love freebsd use it every where I can but its not very good in a desktop / laptop environment missing a lot of drivers for things like wifi and bluetooth on most laptops. The freebsd ports tree is what makes it so amazing but the ports for desktop applications are not as well maintained as the server stuff. Since all those programs work on linux and fedora provides a better desktop experience by default I just go with that.

tapoxi 5y ago

Every time I read an article like this on HN, I can't help but wonder, is anyone actually using a Linux/FreeBSD machine at their workplace? It seems these posts are all about personal machines. I'd love to use Linux professionally, but convincing IT to let me run something outside of their management has always been impossible. Edit: Geez HN, this is a legitimate question and it's currently at -2 karma. What's up with this place lately?

deleted 5y ago
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davewood 5y ago
Using Debian at work and on my personal laptop for at least 10 years now. Not missing anything.
nablaone 5y ago
I'm using on personal computer since '96. Professionally since 2000. I had a "Windows only break" for few months.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
I do. "I am IT", so it helps, but we're basically OK with anyone "technical" (read devs & co) who wants to use anything else than windows. But that means they're on their own if random issues crop up.
stevekemp 5y ago
I've been running Linux for the past 20ish years, professionally. In my previous company I was the only Linux-user, out of 50+ staff. In my current company there are approximately 100 employees and I'm one of two users. I have had to jump through a couple of hoops now and again, installing an Antivirus scanner on my Debian laptop, and similar things. (Jumpcloud agent at this company too). But broadly speaking people have said "If you can take care of it, and if you have full-disk encryption then that's fine". I've always mentioned it in interviews "I will expect to run Linux" and some people have grumbled, but nobody has said "no". For what it's worth I'm a "devops person", rather than a developer.
5y ago

jgillich 5y ago

I have tried FreeBSD and OpenBSD on the desktop a couple years back, but for a while now I've felt that they're becoming irrelevant. * No Bluetooth support on OpenBSD at all, and it never worked on FreeBSD for me. Linux used to have issues with some devices, but it has gotten much, much better over the recent years (or devices have gotten better). * Wifi on Linux mostly works out of the box nowadays (with the exception of some Broadcom chips, but even they are getting better). Completely different story on the BSDs, while they have decent support for some vendors like Intel, they take quite a while to support new hardware. * Gaming is not really a thing on BSD. * Container tech like Kubernetes and Flatpak does not work on the BSDs. While Linux has taken a long time to catch up to Windows (and still isn't there yet in some areas), I feel like the BSDs lack the manpower or interest to even keep pace with the world around them. Not only are things not getting better, they are getting worse.

niahmiah 5y ago
Came to say very similar things. Thanks for saving me this time.
radikalerludwig 5y ago
> * Gaming is not really a thing on BSD Sony has a different story to tell
- steerablesafe 5y ago
  It doesn't help you when you want to run BSD on your laptop or desktop.
- gilrain 5y ago
  This post is opaquely referring to the fact that the Playstation 4 os is based on FreeBSD. Obviously, this is interesting but irrelevant.
  - gh02t 5y ago
    Sony also doesn't contribute much of that code back to FreeBSD.

hunter-gatherer 5y ago

I had a similar experience. I have used linux since I was in highschool until 2009 when I got a macbook. I initially loved it for the same reasons as the author but grew more frustrated and was less enthused every year. In 2013 the computer finally crashed during an update, and i was never able to get it to properly work. At the time I installed linux on a 2005 era PC and had no issues and this carried me the rest of the way through college. I've been back on linux since. My employer sent me a dell, mac, and a forensics workstation. I use windows, macos, and linux daily. Aside from the trackpad and display, I'm actually the least impressed with the macbook. Maybe if I was running windows 11 things would be different. I really don't see the magic that everyobe else sees in Apple products.

alberth 5y ago

Off topic: has anyone tried nix on FreeBSD? How is it?

midrus 5y ago

You're wasting your time.

Claude_Shannon 5y ago

I'm afraid I didn't like that article. I felt like it had said nothing concrete. :| I saw that disclaimer, but still.

chewmieser 5y ago
Agreed! It talked about choosing hardware and I figured it would go into a deep dive of the OS install, issues they encountered on the way, pros and cons of each... But it just basically ends after the hardware section. Feels like it's missing ~50% of what you'd expect from an article like this... I'm not really sure what the point was of it...

SamuelAdams 5y ago

> The hardware itself also got worse. Removal of all but 2 USB-C ports from MacBook Pro was a last nail to the coffin for me. Small correction, the latest MacBook Pro has 4 USB-c ports and an HDMI port That said, is this really a big deal to people? Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop? I use a docking station with a single USB-C cable to connect my Mac. Everything else connects to the dock. It’s simple, it works, I’ve had this setup for six months with zero issues. Linux computers also work the same way. When I am working mobile, in a coffee shop or similar, I never use the ports. An external mouse would work with Bluetooth, and I’ve never needed to use external devices while on the go. I don’t understand why people need a cocktail of barely used ports at all times. Is there a common workflow that I’m not aware of?

normie3000 5y ago
> Do you really still use… USB-A ports directly on your laptop? Yes.
- SamuelAdams 5y ago
  Ok. Is there any reason you can’t spend 10-20 dollars on USB-C cables to replace your USB-A cables?
  - vaylian 5y ago
    1. Some devices don't have a removable USB-A cable 2. Why throw away something that is perfectly working and useful?
    - sbuk 5y ago
      You dont have to, spend $6.99 on a pack of 4 usb-a to c adapters instead.
  - vanilla_nut 5y ago
    Considering the number of USB-A devices I still own, it would be considerably more than “20-30 dollars”. More like $200, and those are all devices, chargers, and travel/backup chargers I rely on regularly. It’s not so simple to migrate. Consider: - Some devices have a proprietary end and a USB-A end, and there’s no USB-C equivalent (my Pebble chargers; my microphone; my webcam). I have tried dongles with these before and left disappointed every time - some devices have a USB-A cord attached permanently, such as my desk lamp. Again, dongles are unreliable here and thus a downgrade. - For portable devices like my standalone GPS for bike touring, my lights for my bicycle, my phone, my watch, and anything else small I might want to charge when travelling by car… I still need USB-A for the car itself. Easier to pack one cable for the whole trip instead of a USB-C cord for hotels and a USB-A cord for the car. - My personal laptop still has USB-A ports, but no USB-C ports. As far as I can tell there are no non-sketchy adapters that go from a male USB-C cable to a female USB-A port. Apple makes a very expensive Thunderbolt2<->Thunderbolt3 adapter that I use at my desk when I want to use my personal laptop there, but that adapter is $50 or so. Already over your budget. - I don’t have any USB-C wall warts at all. The last phone I bought was the 2016 iPhone SE. I have a plethora of USB-A wall warts from family and friends who didn’t need them. They work well. Why are some people so hellbent on removing functionality that other people use every day and can’t replace without significant expense and inconvenience? It’s just like the damn headphone jack on iPhones: I understand that a lot of people are fine with Bluetooth only, but I am not. It’s frustrating to lose the option.

chj 5y ago

On a similar note, I turned away from MBP and use Ubuntu on T570. I do miss the aluminum build, but the modern linux desktop has improved so much in the last decade, that I don't miss the macos UI one bit. It feels good that the OS is not imposing itself between me and the hardware. For instance, you can't write x86 assembler 32bit in the intel mac machines, why? because apple decided for you. I can't imagine going back to macos. To me the golden days is Mac OS X Lion, since then macos experience has been on a down hill path, trying to sell you their services, and I just tolerated until no longer can.

jsz0 5y ago

As a Mac user since 2004 I recently found myself seriously considering other options. Mainly due to the huge regression in UI/UX over the last 2-3 years. Most first party apps have become less functional and harder to use. I'm struggling to use these apps full of tiny gray similar looking icons that don't exactly work in similar ways. Is it my imagination or does drag and drop simply not work reliably on macOS anymore? Finder in column view is being the one I fight with constantly.

smm11 5y ago

The older I get, the more I'm into plug-and-play. For everything.

5etho 5y ago

do you guys think it would work: linux shop similar to apple stop when staff setup linux, and fix it for you while you sipping coffee?

Melatonic 5y ago

I like FreeBSD quite a bit for some things but a desktop OS would likely not be one of them

bradwood 5y ago

Big jump from MacOS to bspwm... I can dig it, having moved to i3 on Arch from MacOS, but surely the WM is much more of the experience change, for day-to-day use, than the innards of the OS, filesystem, and so on.