3 ms·

Honestly and toxicity are orthogonal. They're not opposite sides of the same spectrum. Seems to me that they are both honest and toxic.

logifail 5y ago
> [Honesty] and toxicity are orthogonal Q: What's our working definition for "toxicity", specifically in the workplace? I'm not sure they're nearly as orthogonal as one might think. My experiences of toxic workplaces involved a great deal of dishonest behaviour and I'm struggling to recall much if any honesty.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  If a slide deck says “management will attempt to throw you under the bus: be prepared and keep a paper trail”, that's both honest, and exhibiting dishonest toxicity. Whether you're toxic and whether you're honest about the toxicity are orthogonal.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    What's an example relevant to the slide?
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      “Most of this slide deck is lies. A survey shows that 97% of our employees think our company culture is improving, and 86% believe that this slide deck will be true in 6 months' time.”
dusted 5y ago
Agreed, it's much better to be upfront about it, to avoid wasting time and money on employees that don't fit in (and, as a side effect, avoid hurting those people). The reason I believe they're showing a work environment that would be toxic to me, is that the line "> adequate performance gets a generous severance package" does not stand alone, it's only part of it, they're giving me the general vibe that I should be constantly scared of being the next one to go, that my best will only be good enough until they find someone better.. I don't mind competition, there's always competition, but for me personally, I don't want fierce competition and high pressure to be part of my daily life, not outside recreational activities where the stakes are "get fired for doing an adequate job". I like to do more than is expected, but if what is expected is by definition more than what is needed, well, then I would have to do more than more than what is needed, I don't even know what that is, and I'd not want to constantly think about it and wear myself down from trying to achieve it.
- logifail 5y ago
  > I like to do more than is expected, but if what is expected is by definition more than what is needed [..] Do (m)any companies attempt to drive sales by describing a product as "adequate"? If your child sits a school test and the teacher describes the result as "adequate" would you be content? In the workplace why wouldn't one want to always aim to do "good" work (which is very definitely one step above "adequate"). That doesn't mean amazing, outstanding or exceptional. It also doesn't imply pressure. Why would anyone approach a keyboard if they weren't attempt to do something good? Put another way, who gets out of bed aiming to be adequate? It's not like it even sounds like an aim, it sounds like it happens when you're not paying attention.
  - pm24601 5y ago
    There are a lot of things that I am o.k. with being "adequate" at. I am just fine with being "adequate" at driving for example. Lots of software I write just has to be "adequate" because the consequence of failure is minimal.
  - aksss 5y ago
    > Why would anyone approach a keyboard if they weren't attempt to do something good ..asked a comment on Hacker News. Maybe 'good' would be better replaced with 'of high quality'. Maybe.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  It might be better to be upfront about being toxic than to be secretly toxic, but I'd say it would be even better still to not be toxic.

logifail 5y ago

> [Honesty] and toxicity are orthogonal Q: What's our working definition for "toxicity", specifically in the workplace? I'm not sure they're nearly as orthogonal as one might think. My experiences of toxic workplaces involved a great deal of dishonest behaviour and I'm struggling to recall much if any honesty.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
If a slide deck says “management will attempt to throw you under the bus: be prepared and keep a paper trail”, that's both honest, and exhibiting dishonest toxicity. Whether you're toxic and whether you're honest about the toxicity are orthogonal.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  What's an example relevant to the slide?
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    “Most of this slide deck is lies. A survey shows that 97% of our employees think our company culture is improving, and 86% believe that this slide deck will be true in 6 months' time.”

dusted 5y ago

Agreed, it's much better to be upfront about it, to avoid wasting time and money on employees that don't fit in (and, as a side effect, avoid hurting those people). The reason I believe they're showing a work environment that would be toxic to me, is that the line "> adequate performance gets a generous severance package" does not stand alone, it's only part of it, they're giving me the general vibe that I should be constantly scared of being the next one to go, that my best will only be good enough until they find someone better.. I don't mind competition, there's always competition, but for me personally, I don't want fierce competition and high pressure to be part of my daily life, not outside recreational activities where the stakes are "get fired for doing an adequate job". I like to do more than is expected, but if what is expected is by definition more than what is needed, well, then I would have to do more than more than what is needed, I don't even know what that is, and I'd not want to constantly think about it and wear myself down from trying to achieve it.

logifail 5y ago
> I like to do more than is expected, but if what is expected is by definition more than what is needed [..] Do (m)any companies attempt to drive sales by describing a product as "adequate"? If your child sits a school test and the teacher describes the result as "adequate" would you be content? In the workplace why wouldn't one want to always aim to do "good" work (which is very definitely one step above "adequate"). That doesn't mean amazing, outstanding or exceptional. It also doesn't imply pressure. Why would anyone approach a keyboard if they weren't attempt to do something good? Put another way, who gets out of bed aiming to be adequate? It's not like it even sounds like an aim, it sounds like it happens when you're not paying attention.
- pm24601 5y ago
  There are a lot of things that I am o.k. with being "adequate" at. I am just fine with being "adequate" at driving for example. Lots of software I write just has to be "adequate" because the consequence of failure is minimal.
- aksss 5y ago
  > Why would anyone approach a keyboard if they weren't attempt to do something good ..asked a comment on Hacker News. Maybe 'good' would be better replaced with 'of high quality'. Maybe.
tshaddox 5y ago
It might be better to be upfront about being toxic than to be secretly toxic, but I'd say it would be even better still to not be toxic.