4 ms·

Your point should be a pretty easy hypothesis to test, you may not know this unless you are from Texas but Houston effectively doesn't have zoning laws. Cost o

Your point should be a pretty easy hypothesis to test, you may not know this unless you are from Texas but Houston effectively doesn't have zoning laws. Cost of living calculation between Dallas and Houston says costs are roughly 15% different (as apples to apples a city I can identify to isolate zoning effects). So definitely some effect and a good lever to pull (in addition to others I am sure.) I agree that zoning reform is part of the issue, I think zoning reform combined with other tweaks would go a long way. I think that multiple issues cause these problem, we have runaway negative feedback loops in multiple areas, the problems has evolved organically over time so I doubt any one factor is enough to resolve the issue (as nice as that would be.) I'm not making the assertion that zoning is the sole issue so I don't need to defend it but I figured I could take a quick look and bring some numbers into the mix so we have some numerical grounding for conversation and exploring the problem.

x3iv130f 5y ago
Houston has zoning under a different name. It is illegal to build in Houston properties that would be legal in Japan or Europe.
- fellowniusmonk 5y ago
  Do you have any examples of buildings like this, I've looked but can't find examples online? It seems zoning has a 15% overhead (all things being equal and as best as I could argue with the data I've found so far), maybe it's higher but I haven't found articulable/shareable evidence of that yet. IANAL, so hopefully an expert on HN can help chime in. I've looked (links below) and have done more querying than a comment thread like this probably warrants but wasn't able to find your assertion articulated anywhere. Neither Japan or Houston are unconstrained free-markets without land use control so I'm doing my best to roughly/quickly tease out zonings isolated impact on affordability. Neither locations have 0 laws so they are close to apples to apples and since we're just doing relative comparison I'd rather keep things data driven. Houston has deed restriction but that is a simple free-market/libertarian private contract solution. Does Japan ban deed restrictions? Both japan and houston have historical zones I've linked these two jstore articles as well as a more digestible video. https://www.jstor.org/stable/724839 https://www.jstor.org/stable/724839 https://www.jstor.org/stable/30238667 https://www.jstor.org/stable/30238667 https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/building-regulations-in-japan/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/building-re... https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/04/113144-watch-debunking-myths-about-houstons-lack-zoning https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/04/113144-watch-debunki...
  - rlguarino 5y ago
    I'm not an expert by any means but there's a clip in another comment I made about some of Houston's zoning stuff, I'm curious what you think. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30376623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30376623
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bilbo0s 5y ago
I lived in the Museum District/Third Ward in Houston for almost 2 decades now. Houston definitely has zoning. We just don't call it zoning. In fact, in addition to stealth zoning, we have neighborhood based facility also where even people in a neighborhood can tell you to piss off. I'm not familiar with the ordinances in Dallas, but I think this may not be as much of an apples to apples comparison as you imagine if the thesis of that comparison is that "Houston has no zoning". You have to find an actual free city to do the comparison.
- fellowniusmonk 5y ago
  My understanding is that japan does have historically protected districts, they call them preservation districts. I think it would be really helpful to have someone actually dive on the details. Houston does rely on a lot on developers being able to put "deed restrictions" in place, which seems like their free-market/libertarian/state enforced private contracts solution. I'm not familiar with Japan but their property laws are not unregulated so I think it's worth sussing that out so people can properly back their assertions with arguments and maybe we can derive a defendable % cost impact from zoning laws.
  - p_l 5y ago
    Japan has serious zoning law, but the issue is that it's reasonably scoped zoning that doesn't do things like "only single family homes here, no commercial properties including ban on corner shops" - they define what could be termed maximum allowed nuisance level, and the defined categories create a spectrum with overlap at both ends of each category. Even category 1, low rise residential, permits low-rise multiple units, small offices and shops etc. as well as certain public utility buildings (schools and the like). Compare it with zoning (or zoning hidden under other bylaws) in USA where you can end with a big area that permits only single family houses - no shops, not even a small grocery store, etc.
- conductr 5y ago
  So, I've lived in both Dallas and Houston (and Austin). Zoning has nothing to do with the price delta. It has more to do with employment, jobs, income, etc. The market will charge what the customer can afford kind of thing. Same reason RE in Austin is much higher than Houston or Dallas. It's all about tech money and influx of wealth from coastal cities. This is not COVID, it's just Texas - although, the supply shock really threw things out of whack. Years prior, we always did good enough to keep supply coming online at a reasonable price. Shutdown, commodity prices, supply chain, etc destroyed that and prices. Anecdotal, but Greater Houston differs from DFW as it's more blue collar and DFW tends to be fairly white collar/corp focused. Ironically, Houston also has much more wealth. So what this means is DFW feels like it IS middle class with some lower, some upper, and a few Mark Cuban's. Houston has a whole neighborhood of Mark Cuban's, you see lower income everywhere, and it's kind of unclear where the middle is. In the exurbs? Is exurb A a middle, upper middle, etc. it's not clear where those lines get drawn. Dallas in particular is more segregated on income (which is correlated with.. you know) with the southern part of town being almost exclusively lower income. Houston is more integrated in this regard, there are pockets of wealthy areas surrounded by lower income areas and the folks interact with each other. I actually don't hear a ton about the big money buying here in Dallas (Zillow, etc). It's just people that sold their west coast house for $2M+ and move here cash rich. I see a lot of mid-lifers so school district & distance to office is the biggest draw for which areas are seeing the largest price gains.
trinovantes 5y ago
If there's enough bylaws that the only building you're allowed to build is in the shape of a SFH with a driveway, that's the only thing that will get built
dibujante 5y ago
They don't have "zoning" just bylaws that require only certain kinds of structures to be built on certain parcels. They have zoning
pchristensen 5y ago
This is a good summary of land use goods and bads in Houston - https://marketurbanism.com/2016/09/19/how-houston-regulates-land-use/ https://marketurbanism.com/2016/09/19/how-houston-regulates-...
namlem 5y ago
Houston has a lot of other land use restrictions. I should have been more specific. Even without zoning, you have rules like floor-area-ratio, parking minimums, setback requirements, etc.

x3iv130f 5y ago

Houston has zoning under a different name. It is illegal to build in Houston properties that would be legal in Japan or Europe.

fellowniusmonk 5y ago
Do you have any examples of buildings like this, I've looked but can't find examples online? It seems zoning has a 15% overhead (all things being equal and as best as I could argue with the data I've found so far), maybe it's higher but I haven't found articulable/shareable evidence of that yet. IANAL, so hopefully an expert on HN can help chime in. I've looked (links below) and have done more querying than a comment thread like this probably warrants but wasn't able to find your assertion articulated anywhere. Neither Japan or Houston are unconstrained free-markets without land use control so I'm doing my best to roughly/quickly tease out zonings isolated impact on affordability. Neither locations have 0 laws so they are close to apples to apples and since we're just doing relative comparison I'd rather keep things data driven. Houston has deed restriction but that is a simple free-market/libertarian private contract solution. Does Japan ban deed restrictions? Both japan and houston have historical zones I've linked these two jstore articles as well as a more digestible video. https://www.jstor.org/stable/724839 https://www.jstor.org/stable/724839 https://www.jstor.org/stable/30238667 https://www.jstor.org/stable/30238667 https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/building-regulations-in-japan/ https://japanpropertycentral.com/real-estate-faq/building-re... https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/04/113144-watch-debunking-myths-about-houstons-lack-zoning https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/04/113144-watch-debunki...
- rlguarino 5y ago
  I'm not an expert by any means but there's a clip in another comment I made about some of Houston's zoning stuff, I'm curious what you think. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30376623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30376623

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bilbo0s 5y ago

I lived in the Museum District/Third Ward in Houston for almost 2 decades now. Houston definitely has zoning. We just don't call it zoning. In fact, in addition to stealth zoning, we have neighborhood based facility also where even people in a neighborhood can tell you to piss off. I'm not familiar with the ordinances in Dallas, but I think this may not be as much of an apples to apples comparison as you imagine if the thesis of that comparison is that "Houston has no zoning". You have to find an actual free city to do the comparison.

fellowniusmonk 5y ago
My understanding is that japan does have historically protected districts, they call them preservation districts. I think it would be really helpful to have someone actually dive on the details. Houston does rely on a lot on developers being able to put "deed restrictions" in place, which seems like their free-market/libertarian/state enforced private contracts solution. I'm not familiar with Japan but their property laws are not unregulated so I think it's worth sussing that out so people can properly back their assertions with arguments and maybe we can derive a defendable % cost impact from zoning laws.
- p_l 5y ago
  Japan has serious zoning law, but the issue is that it's reasonably scoped zoning that doesn't do things like "only single family homes here, no commercial properties including ban on corner shops" - they define what could be termed maximum allowed nuisance level, and the defined categories create a spectrum with overlap at both ends of each category. Even category 1, low rise residential, permits low-rise multiple units, small offices and shops etc. as well as certain public utility buildings (schools and the like). Compare it with zoning (or zoning hidden under other bylaws) in USA where you can end with a big area that permits only single family houses - no shops, not even a small grocery store, etc.
conductr 5y ago
So, I've lived in both Dallas and Houston (and Austin). Zoning has nothing to do with the price delta. It has more to do with employment, jobs, income, etc. The market will charge what the customer can afford kind of thing. Same reason RE in Austin is much higher than Houston or Dallas. It's all about tech money and influx of wealth from coastal cities. This is not COVID, it's just Texas - although, the supply shock really threw things out of whack. Years prior, we always did good enough to keep supply coming online at a reasonable price. Shutdown, commodity prices, supply chain, etc destroyed that and prices. Anecdotal, but Greater Houston differs from DFW as it's more blue collar and DFW tends to be fairly white collar/corp focused. Ironically, Houston also has much more wealth. So what this means is DFW feels like it IS middle class with some lower, some upper, and a few Mark Cuban's. Houston has a whole neighborhood of Mark Cuban's, you see lower income everywhere, and it's kind of unclear where the middle is. In the exurbs? Is exurb A a middle, upper middle, etc. it's not clear where those lines get drawn. Dallas in particular is more segregated on income (which is correlated with.. you know) with the southern part of town being almost exclusively lower income. Houston is more integrated in this regard, there are pockets of wealthy areas surrounded by lower income areas and the folks interact with each other. I actually don't hear a ton about the big money buying here in Dallas (Zillow, etc). It's just people that sold their west coast house for $2M+ and move here cash rich. I see a lot of mid-lifers so school district & distance to office is the biggest draw for which areas are seeing the largest price gains.

trinovantes 5y ago

If there's enough bylaws that the only building you're allowed to build is in the shape of a SFH with a driveway, that's the only thing that will get built

dibujante 5y ago

They don't have "zoning" just bylaws that require only certain kinds of structures to be built on certain parcels. They have zoning

pchristensen 5y ago

This is a good summary of land use goods and bads in Houston - https://marketurbanism.com/2016/09/19/how-houston-regulates-land-use/ https://marketurbanism.com/2016/09/19/how-houston-regulates-...

namlem 5y ago

Houston has a lot of other land use restrictions. I should have been more specific. Even without zoning, you have rules like floor-area-ratio, parking minimums, setback requirements, etc.