10 ms·

I'm finding that Netflix slide incredibly toxic, I'd never want to work for Netflix after reading that, no matter how skilled I was (they wouldn't want me anywa

by dusted 5y ago

I'm finding that Netflix slide incredibly toxic, I'd never want to work for Netflix after reading that, no matter how skilled I was (they wouldn't want me anyway so nobody lost anything).

adflux 5y ago
And that is totally fine and 100% the intent of that slide. You and Netflix don't match in terms of expectations. Id give kudos to netflix for being up front about it.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  I fear "We're not a family" at this point is an oft copied mantra (I recall seeing this in GitLab's S1), same as Amazon's "missionaries over mercenaries" that's now prevalent (Coinbase, the most recent example), as well.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    I fear "We're a family" at this point is an oft copied mantra Of course I am assuming those that use said mantra are refering to the touchy feely version of family and we are not going down the 'what does family mean anyway' rabbit hole, where rivalry even Fratricide and Parricide, they even have a word for killing a family member.
  - ravenstine 5y ago
    Ironically, "we're not a family" may end up being nearly identical to "we're a family". People distrust "we're a family" because it's an illusion, not because of the potential for an actual sort of "family" or friendship. But they may also come to distrust "we're not a family" once it becomes as cliche and they realize that every company they work for that makes such a claim will inevitably devolve into making the employee-employer relationship out to be more than it actually is or should be. I disbelieve most corporate values because companies are run by humans, and humans are pretty bad at self evaluation. Well, that and I've had enough experience to tell me that explicitly stated corporate values usually mean very little in practice. Only you can unveil a company's values, though that's no easy task beyond some basic red/green flags.
    - cestith 5y ago
      Some of my strongest lifetime friendships have been made in small startups where everyone treated everyone like family. I don't mean the Cleavers, either, but a real family with internal spats, sibling rivalry, and embarrassing stories brought out at parties. We broke bread together, suffered loss together, celebrated victories together, and protected ourselves collectively from outside threats. We were welcome in one another's homes. One of my coworkers (at three different firms) and I married sisters. I met my ex wife at his wedding. It was a wonderful life experience, but not something that I think can scale beyond a couple dozen people. Anyone who's telling you their 200-person company or 5,000-person company is like a family is lying to you to attempt to buy loyalty or is deluding themselves.
hutzlibu 5y ago
May I ask, what you find toxic about them? I thought them to be refreshing honest and clear (but have not yet read all slides). I mean, it is also not attractive for me, because I would not put what is good for Netflix, over what is good for me - but otherwise I do not think a professional, internal competing sports team as a goal, is necessarily toxic.
- sakarisson 5y ago
  I do agree that the honesty is refreshing. That said, I personally feel like the mentality of "We will fire you if you aren't doing an _exceptional_ job" reads as a serious red flag. The implication here is that you should expect to work overtime and prioritize your job over all else. Even then, we might still fire you. Of course I'd rather have a company being open and upfront about their unsustainable expectations, but I'd still prefer a company that values work/live balance of their employees. Would I say that Netflix's approach is toxic? Honestly, yes. But I do understand that this is just my own opinion.
  - p1esk 5y ago
    You do realize they offer top of market compensation (250k fresh grad, >500k senior SWE, etc) for what they are looking for?
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      So your argument would be, as long as the pay is right, toxic culture is allright? I mean, as long as this is a individual decision, that would be allright with me - but pay does not negate toxic. It only makes it bearable. But like stated above, I do not say that Netflix culture is toxic, as they are clear about what they expect: top performance above everything else. That this can lead to toxic situations, as we all are not only having good times - should be clear to anyone applying. But I suppose even at netflix they are aware of this and hopefully have plans to deal with temporary burn outs, other than instantly firing those underperformers.
      - 5y ago
nhoughto 5y ago
Interesting, I had the opposite reaction. Great that they are upfront and honest.
papito 5y ago
I think claiming that "we are a family" is actually the toxic one. It's incredibly dishonest to claim that. No one gets fired from a family because the family is "right-sizing".
- technion 5y ago
  Even before I had a job, reading "we are like family" in advertisements just left me thinking of "well you walk out on a family at 5pm just because the event ended then".
  - aksss 5y ago
    The ol' "Irish Goodbye". Big fan.
- petepete 5y ago
  "we're a family but if you don't do well enough gtfo"
  - nickpeterson 5y ago
    It is like a family, just more like the family from Succession…
- ido 5y ago
  I don't think that's the part OP was speaking against.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  It is a platitude, not toxic. Being a "pro sportsteam" on the other hand could be considered toxic. I know of no more cut throat legal business than sports. They are aggressivly signaling that they push KPI missers out.
  - logifail 5y ago
    Q: Is wanting to succeed considered a bad thing?
_dain_ 5y ago
It's funny how people have different reactions to it. I find it quite compelling and well thought out. "We're a pro sports team" is a much better and less toxic mindset than "we're a family".
- hef19898 5y ago
  It is definitely more honest.
afarrell 5y ago
This is a signal that they have phrased their values well. A good values statement should polarize. It should disgust people whose ability to work effectively would be poisoned by the culture that leadership strives to maintain. A recruiting process which discriminates against people who do not share their values will create a more secure sense of belonging among people who do -- even among underprivileged groups who would otherwise worry they do not really fit in.
- Wiseacre 5y ago
  Do employees from underprivileged groups stay at Netflix longer than comparable companies?
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    Who cares? Even giving credit to the point I think you're trying to make, the relevant comparison would be employees from underprivileged groups stay at Netflix as long, on average, as Netflix employees not from underprivileged groups.
    - Wiseacre 5y ago
      Is that actually the case?
      - p1esk 5y ago
        Should it be?
        fdjlasdfjl 5y ago
      - lostcolony 5y ago
        No idea! Certainly, their current DE&I reports are better than most tech companies ( https://about.netflix.com/en/news/netflix-inclusion-report-2021 https://about.netflix.com/en/news/netflix-inclusion-report-2...), but finding turnover by demographic is hard. My point isn't "these cultural values do/do not conflict with DE&I", but that you were asking the wrong question even to begin to measure that.
logifail 5y ago
> I'm finding that Netflix slide incredibly toxic I don't find anything in that deck even remotely toxic. I find it almost jaw-droppingly honest!
- arrow7000 5y ago
  Honestly and toxicity are orthogonal. They're not opposite sides of the same spectrum. Seems to me that they are both honest and toxic.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > [Honesty] and toxicity are orthogonal Q: What's our working definition for "toxicity", specifically in the workplace? I'm not sure they're nearly as orthogonal as one might think. My experiences of toxic workplaces involved a great deal of dishonest behaviour and I'm struggling to recall much if any honesty.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      If a slide deck says “management will attempt to throw you under the bus: be prepared and keep a paper trail”, that's both honest, and exhibiting dishonest toxicity. Whether you're toxic and whether you're honest about the toxicity are orthogonal.
      - 1123581321 5y ago
        What's an example relevant to the slide?
        wizzwizz4 5y ago
        “Most of this slide deck is lies. A survey shows that 97% of our employees think our company culture is improving, and 86% believe that this slide deck will be true in 6 months' time.”
  - dusted 5y ago

by dusted 5y ago

I'm finding that Netflix slide incredibly toxic, I'd never want to work for Netflix after reading that, no matter how skilled I was (they wouldn't want me anyway so nobody lost anything).

adflux 5y ago

And that is totally fine and 100% the intent of that slide. You and Netflix don't match in terms of expectations. Id give kudos to netflix for being up front about it.

ignoramous 5y ago
I fear "We're not a family" at this point is an oft copied mantra (I recall seeing this in GitLab's S1), same as Amazon's "missionaries over mercenaries" that's now prevalent (Coinbase, the most recent example), as well.
- blitzar 5y ago
  I fear "We're a family" at this point is an oft copied mantra Of course I am assuming those that use said mantra are refering to the touchy feely version of family and we are not going down the 'what does family mean anyway' rabbit hole, where rivalry even Fratricide and Parricide, they even have a word for killing a family member.
- ravenstine 5y ago
  Ironically, "we're not a family" may end up being nearly identical to "we're a family". People distrust "we're a family" because it's an illusion, not because of the potential for an actual sort of "family" or friendship. But they may also come to distrust "we're not a family" once it becomes as cliche and they realize that every company they work for that makes such a claim will inevitably devolve into making the employee-employer relationship out to be more than it actually is or should be. I disbelieve most corporate values because companies are run by humans, and humans are pretty bad at self evaluation. Well, that and I've had enough experience to tell me that explicitly stated corporate values usually mean very little in practice. Only you can unveil a company's values, though that's no easy task beyond some basic red/green flags.
  - cestith 5y ago
    Some of my strongest lifetime friendships have been made in small startups where everyone treated everyone like family. I don't mean the Cleavers, either, but a real family with internal spats, sibling rivalry, and embarrassing stories brought out at parties. We broke bread together, suffered loss together, celebrated victories together, and protected ourselves collectively from outside threats. We were welcome in one another's homes. One of my coworkers (at three different firms) and I married sisters. I met my ex wife at his wedding. It was a wonderful life experience, but not something that I think can scale beyond a couple dozen people. Anyone who's telling you their 200-person company or 5,000-person company is like a family is lying to you to attempt to buy loyalty or is deluding themselves.

hutzlibu 5y ago

May I ask, what you find toxic about them? I thought them to be refreshing honest and clear (but have not yet read all slides). I mean, it is also not attractive for me, because I would not put what is good for Netflix, over what is good for me - but otherwise I do not think a professional, internal competing sports team as a goal, is necessarily toxic.

sakarisson 5y ago
I do agree that the honesty is refreshing. That said, I personally feel like the mentality of "We will fire you if you aren't doing an _exceptional_ job" reads as a serious red flag. The implication here is that you should expect to work overtime and prioritize your job over all else. Even then, we might still fire you. Of course I'd rather have a company being open and upfront about their unsustainable expectations, but I'd still prefer a company that values work/live balance of their employees. Would I say that Netflix's approach is toxic? Honestly, yes. But I do understand that this is just my own opinion.
- p1esk 5y ago
  You do realize they offer top of market compensation (250k fresh grad, >500k senior SWE, etc) for what they are looking for?
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    So your argument would be, as long as the pay is right, toxic culture is allright? I mean, as long as this is a individual decision, that would be allright with me - but pay does not negate toxic. It only makes it bearable. But like stated above, I do not say that Netflix culture is toxic, as they are clear about what they expect: top performance above everything else. That this can lead to toxic situations, as we all are not only having good times - should be clear to anyone applying. But I suppose even at netflix they are aware of this and hopefully have plans to deal with temporary burn outs, other than instantly firing those underperformers.
    - 5y ago

nhoughto 5y ago

Interesting, I had the opposite reaction. Great that they are upfront and honest.

papito 5y ago

I think claiming that "we are a family" is actually the toxic one. It's incredibly dishonest to claim that. No one gets fired from a family because the family is "right-sizing".

technion 5y ago
Even before I had a job, reading "we are like family" in advertisements just left me thinking of "well you walk out on a family at 5pm just because the event ended then".
- aksss 5y ago
  The ol' "Irish Goodbye". Big fan.
petepete 5y ago
"we're a family but if you don't do well enough gtfo"
- nickpeterson 5y ago
  It is like a family, just more like the family from Succession…
ido 5y ago
I don't think that's the part OP was speaking against.
rightbyte 5y ago
It is a platitude, not toxic. Being a "pro sportsteam" on the other hand could be considered toxic. I know of no more cut throat legal business than sports. They are aggressivly signaling that they push KPI missers out.
- logifail 5y ago
  Q: Is wanting to succeed considered a bad thing?

_dain_ 5y ago

It's funny how people have different reactions to it. I find it quite compelling and well thought out. "We're a pro sports team" is a much better and less toxic mindset than "we're a family".

hef19898 5y ago
It is definitely more honest.

afarrell 5y ago

This is a signal that they have phrased their values well. A good values statement should polarize. It should disgust people whose ability to work effectively would be poisoned by the culture that leadership strives to maintain. A recruiting process which discriminates against people who do not share their values will create a more secure sense of belonging among people who do -- even among underprivileged groups who would otherwise worry they do not really fit in.

Wiseacre 5y ago
Do employees from underprivileged groups stay at Netflix longer than comparable companies?
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Who cares? Even giving credit to the point I think you're trying to make, the relevant comparison would be employees from underprivileged groups stay at Netflix as long, on average, as Netflix employees not from underprivileged groups.
  - Wiseacre 5y ago
    Is that actually the case?
    - p1esk 5y ago
      Should it be?
      - fdjlasdfjl 5y ago
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      No idea! Certainly, their current DE&I reports are better than most tech companies ( https://about.netflix.com/en/news/netflix-inclusion-report-2021 https://about.netflix.com/en/news/netflix-inclusion-report-2...), but finding turnover by demographic is hard. My point isn't "these cultural values do/do not conflict with DE&I", but that you were asking the wrong question even to begin to measure that.

logifail 5y ago

> I'm finding that Netflix slide incredibly toxic I don't find anything in that deck even remotely toxic. I find it almost jaw-droppingly honest!

arrow7000 5y ago
Honestly and toxicity are orthogonal. They're not opposite sides of the same spectrum. Seems to me that they are both honest and toxic.
- logifail 5y ago
  > [Honesty] and toxicity are orthogonal Q: What's our working definition for "toxicity", specifically in the workplace? I'm not sure they're nearly as orthogonal as one might think. My experiences of toxic workplaces involved a great deal of dishonest behaviour and I'm struggling to recall much if any honesty.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    If a slide deck says “management will attempt to throw you under the bus: be prepared and keep a paper trail”, that's both honest, and exhibiting dishonest toxicity. Whether you're toxic and whether you're honest about the toxicity are orthogonal.
    - 1123581321 5y ago
      What's an example relevant to the slide?
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        “Most of this slide deck is lies. A survey shows that 97% of our employees think our company culture is improving, and 86% believe that this slide deck will be true in 6 months' time.”
- dusted 5y ago